I Am Soul

[Navigator]

Don’t be silly Navigator, Santa being a ‘nice guy’ or ‘my pal’ was meant as a tongue-in-cheek remark. You missed the message by only looking at the messenger.

Ho Ho Ho

 

[Navigator]

Ho Ho Ho

That is what I love about this world. Not every question is at all easy to answer, and so often emotions get in the way, or at least have a bearing on the way everyone believes whatever they believe.

I say good on everybody.

As far as belief systems go, each to their own I say.
I think the possibility that consciousness and a sense of self carrying on into another type of reality related to this one, is a good thing for an individual to contemplate, and even prepare for the likelihood of.

But then, how is one to prepare for the unknown?

It would be more about adjusting – something of a skill which is able to be learned in this illusion of beginnings – this ‘life of the individual’.
Some would adjust faster than others. But in this universe, what is the relevance of time? Take as long as you need.

I like that idea. I like the idea of consciousness always ever having existed. I like the idea of the human instrument being a good learning curve through which consciousness can experience and experiment.

Immerse itself within an animal product and be flung about by the emotions of that instrument.
Ho Ho Ho!

Then learning about how not to be flung about by those things!
I like the idea that creation creates, that an interaction between consciousness and human form can create a new thing.
It is like the human instrument is used as a kind of incubator – growing something that will be born when the body finally dies.

That new thing – in the next stage of the evolution of consciousness.

 

[Moochie]

I accept that it can be no other way for individuals.
Events that happen in peoples lives must be fiction for others, especially when those events others cannot verify.

This is the reason why skepticism will not amount to a world changing tool of enlightenment.
Religion and Culture are here for the long haul.

Look at it this way. Culture has invented something called xmas and the central figure is something called Santa Claus. (a popular wooish male figurehead)
What chance does skepticism have of enlightening the masses to the truth of this institution? Even when adults (who formerly believed) have come to understand that there is no truth in it, they still encourage their offspring to believe it is truth.

There is little chance of skepticism educating the masses about this folly. There is pretty much nil chance of skepticism educating religions and cultures that have been a part of the human journey for much longer than the Jolly Red One

At least a skeptic can take someone by the hand and lead them through all the reasons why Santa does not exist.
It is impossible for a skeptic to do the same regarding the invisible reality that individual’s experience.
So far science might seem to be a tool which ‘strongly suggests’ that there are more appropriate explanations – all of which are ‘likely’ a function of the brain, this amounts to moving mountains with a spoon….it will bend the spoon. Forgive the pun.

It is precisely the attitude of skepticism inherent in those scientists responsible for our current knowledge of the universe that has brought humanity to where it is today. And note I said "current," because the pursuit of knowledge hasn't ended. It (knowledge) is being checked and rechecked, and added to every day, as new discoveries are made.

You may choose to believe whatever you want, but believing in something doesn't make it so, unless evidence appears that can be seen by everyone, not just a "chosen few" who then use this "knowledge" to hoodwink everyone else.

M.

 

[Moochie]

My summary is the antithesis of your reductionist scientism position concerning which can you provide any proof other than ritual denial of what you reject?
The proof of what I say comes from those who have perfected the mental body.

Your statements seem to reflect an amalgam of various religions, including pseudo-religions such as $cientology and Primal $cream "therapy." As such, they are pure bunkum with not a shred of evidence to support any of them.

I am therefore highly skeptical of the claims made by you and those made by Navigator. They advance our knowledge and understanding of the universe not one whit.

M.

 

[lupus_in_fabula]

I like the idea of consciousness always ever having existed. I like the idea of the human instrument being a good learning curve through which consciousness can experience and experiment.

Immerse itself within an animal product and be flung about by the emotions of that instrument.
Ho Ho Ho!

Then learning about how not to be flung about by those things!
I like the idea that creation creates, that an interaction between consciousness and human form can create a new thing.
It is like the human instrument is used as a kind of incubator – growing something that will be born when the body finally dies.

That new thing – in the next stage of the evolution of consciousness.

Who wouldn’t like those ideas? However, I’m afraid it’s not very likely it is so. On the other hand, perhaps we can build something of the sort, some day in the very distant future? I won’t be there, but I cherish the idea and such an effort nonetheless. Furthermore, I already get a kind of numinous feeling when watching Carl Sagan’s Cosmos, or reading about new scientific discoveries that seems to indicate a kind of fusion between the virtual and actual. My goodness, despite all the rubbish found on the Internet, it’s almost like an extraordinary extension of my nervous system.

 

[Navigator]

It is precisely the attitude of skepticism inherent in those scientists responsible for our current knowledge of the universe that has brought humanity to where it is today. And note I said "current," because the pursuit of knowledge hasn't ended. It (knowledge) is being checked and rechecked, and added to every day, as new discoveries are made.

You may choose to believe whatever you want, but believing in something doesn't make it so, unless evidence appears that can be seen by everyone, not just a "chosen few" who then use this "knowledge" to hoodwink everyone else.

Come on now moochie – lighten up already. You sound like you are on some kind of crusade!

So what if people are being hoodwinked! So what if people don’t agree to what they define as ‘acceptable’ hoodwinking and ‘non acceptable’ hoodwinking.
Many individuals rely on hoodwinking to earn a crust and hoodwinking isn’t confined to the great halls of religion, but is also likely active in politics and culture and even maybe in science!

It is part of the explorative nature of the human experience. Maybe partly a cause of the survival instinct but also maybe just for the fun of it.

Why, even hereabouts there is an opinion that the brain is the greatest hoodwinker of all time, and one has to wonder at the intelligence of such a thing which would want to hoodwink its self.

 

[Tricky]

That is what I love about this world. Not every question is at all easy to answer, and so often emotions get in the way, or at least have a bearing on the way everyone believes whatever they believe.

I say good on everybody.

Yes, many people believe different things. There are lots of unanswered questions. People get emotional about their beliefs. What next, Captain Obvious?

I think the possibility that consciousness and a sense of self carrying on into another type of reality related to this one, is a good thing for an individual to contemplate, and even prepare for the likelihood of.

And I say it is a waste of time. I believe time is better used preparing for things that we know to exist, because you are far more likely to use such preparations. But of course, you are welcome to your beliefs.

But then, how is one to prepare for the unknown?

One cannot. That's the thing about the unknown. Nobody knows anything about it.

It would be more about adjusting – something of a skill which is able to be learned in this illusion of beginnings – this ‘life of the individual’.
Some would adjust faster than others. But in this universe, what is the relevance of time? Take as long as you need.

See, here is where we depart. You are speaking as if you do know something of "the unknown" and that some sort of afterlife (or non-physical existence) that you will have to adjust to will exist. I have no reason to believe this is the case, therefore I decline the opportunity to worry about or prepare for it.

I like that idea. I like the idea of consciousness always ever having existed. I like the idea of the human instrument being a good learning curve through which consciousness can experience and experiment.

Certainly it is a pleasant idea, because the alternative is that you're just dead. Such an idea of completely ceasing to exist is quite scary to many people. They will conceive all sorts of ideas about "continuing consciousness" to avoid contemplating their own total non-existence. Some envision heaven. Some prefer reincarnation. Some prefer their own conceptions, like cosmic "TV stations". These conceptions all have a couple of things in common. The first is that they are all vehicles for extending consciousness. The second is that there is no evidence for any of them. Indeed every single piece of reliable evidence is that the opposite is true. People are only conscious as long as their bodies are alive. Sad but probably true.

Immerse itself within an animal product and be flung about by the emotions of that instrument.

Yes. That sort of invention is exactly what I'm talking about. What fun it would be! How wonderful! Ho ho ho!

Then learning about how not to be flung about by those things!
I like the idea that creation creates, that an interaction between consciousness and human form can create a new thing.
It is like the human instrument is used as a kind of incubator – growing something that will be born when the body finally dies.

I'm quite sure you like that idea. You don't want to die when your body dies. That would be awful! Quick, think of something else so you won't have to contemplate complete death! I've got it! Gravitons! (It's a long story.)

 

[Navigator]

I am therefore highly skeptical of the claims made by you and those made by Navigator. They advance our knowledge and understanding of the universe not one whit.

Highly skeptical?

Hmm….a little skeptical
Mostly skeptical
A tiny bit skeptical
Totally skeptical…

‘Our’ knowledge?

What I enjoy about being me is that I can explore various ideas based on what ‘me’ already has experience and suit myself as to what I choose to believe.
So far, nothing has been shown me here which has altered my understanding that it could happen – that consciousness could continue to exist after the human instrument has expired.
Furthermore, such a belief shouldn’t at all be a threat to anyone else, even those who are convinced that it won’t happen.
For me right now, that is the interesting thing. How does having such a belief take away from the world or somehow make it harder for the world to understand itself truthfully?

 

[Navigator]

Come on’ Tricky!

Of course it is likely that some persons pondering the possibility of continuing on consciously will extend that into heavens and hells and other strange and wonderful delightments.
And of course there are some who are scared witless at the prospect of death forever that they need to cling onto some form of belief of continuum.
But I find it hard to grasp why that would be a concern. It is a possibility, but what of it?
It is absolutely no thing to prepare for.

Which one of us was prepared for this experience of conscious awareness on a tiny big planet in a tiny huge galaxy in a cosmological wonderland?
And now we know…we were not prepared for that – but it happened anyway, and gives us the skills to prepare…
What ‘time’ is involved in preparation that is ‘wasted’ when you could be doing what ‘other things’?
Does your world stop while contemplation erupts?
Or is it the fear of continuing on after death which prevents you from any such contemplation?

Hopefully not.

I would think that at least a skeptic might be better prepared than some who are convinced of ‘afterlife’ but have already mapped out for themselves how that ‘afterlife’ will be.
I think a skeptic might respond to the happening somewhat like “Oh well look at that…my brains having a final fart before curtain fall”… and then…if that delusion doesn’t fold into oblivion…the skeptic will assess the situation and go about the business of getting to know that situation.

 

[Moochie]

Come on now moochie – lighten up already. You sound like you are on some kind of crusade!

So what if people are being hoodwinked! So what if people don’t agree to what they define as ‘acceptable’ hoodwinking and ‘non acceptable’ hoodwinking.
Many individuals rely on hoodwinking to earn a crust and hoodwinking isn’t confined to the great halls of religion, but is also likely active in politics and culture and even maybe in science!

It is part of the explorative nature of the human experience. Maybe partly a cause of the survival instinct but also maybe just for the fun of it.

Why, even hereabouts there is an opinion that the brain is the greatest hoodwinker of all time, and one has to wonder at the intelligence of such a thing which would want to hoodwink its self.

Come on now, Navigator -- steady on old chum. As I've remarked elsewhere in this forum, I have a very rich fantasy life. I can "grok" all that you've said, and it's nice to speculate about these things, but for me they remain wholly in the realm of fantasy until evidence emerges that puts them into the real world(TM).

M.

 

[Tricky]

Of course it is likely that some persons pondering the possibility of continuing on consciously will extend that into heavens and hells and other strange and wonderful delightments.
And of course there are some who are scared witless at the prospect of death forever that they need to cling onto some form of belief of continuum.
But I find it hard to grasp why that would be a concern. It is a possibility, but what of it?

Come on Navigator! You know I'm not concerned with what fantasies other people concoct, unless they try to foist them upon others or use them as an excuse/enticement for doing harmful things (I'm thinking of the 72 virgins that some Muslim fanatics are bribed with). Of course, I also make exceptions for young children. They shouldn't be told that other people's fantasies are true. That makes it difficult for them to make an informed choice in later years, because many people tend to believe the things they heard at an early age. But for you and other adults, knock yourself out. If you want to envision consciousness a TV or even as a refrigerator that is freezing up ice cubes of "self" for some post death cocktail party, it's no skin off my nose.

But here on the skeptics boards, we discuss such things. If you bring such a premise to the boards, we will discuss it. As you can see, most skeptics are not going to agree with you.

Which one of us was prepared for this experience of conscious awareness on a tiny big planet in a tiny huge galaxy in a cosmological wonderland?

Since most of it happened before any of us arrived on the scene, I'm going to bet the under and say "zero".

And now we know…we were not prepared for that – but it happened anyway, and gives us the skills to prepare…

Really? What skill help prepare you for an extended consciousness that you know nothing about or even if it exists. Remember what I said about "the unknown"?

But mental flexibility and critical thinking are good skills to have in most situations. That's what most skeptics practice.

What ‘time’ is involved in preparation that is ‘wasted’ when you could be doing what ‘other things’?

The time spent planning for something that has no evidence of existing. Wasn't it you who was saying that planning for the extended consciousness is a good thing to do? Ah yes. Here it is.

I think the possibility that consciousness and a sense of self carrying on into another type of reality related to this one, is a good thing for an individual to contemplate, and even prepare for the likelihood of.

Call it planning or call it "preparing for the likelihood of". It means the same.

Does your world stop while contemplation erupts?

Normally, when I am focusing my thought on one thing, then I am not deeply contemplating other things. Maybe you multitask better than I, but if I'm trying to figure out how to make a geological model represent the real world (part of my job) then I find it distracting to have my concentration interrupted.

Or is it the fear of continuing on after death which prevents you from any such contemplation?

No, of course not. In fact, I contemplate it often when discussing things here, but only because I enjoy sharing ideas. It is certainly not because I am planning for the afterlife, or that I fear one.

I would think that at least a skeptic might be better prepared than some who are convinced of ‘afterlife’ but have already mapped out for themselves how that ‘afterlife’ will be.

As I say, critical thinking is useful in most situations. If evidence ever turned up, I'd like to think I'd be pretty good at evaluating it. Hubris, perhaps, but evaluating evidence is a lot of what I do for a living.

I think a skeptic might respond to the happening somewhat like “Oh well look at that…my brains having a final fart before curtain fall”… and then…if that delusion doesn’t fold into oblivion…the skeptic will assess the situation and go about the business of getting to know that situation.

Well, I've thought I was dying before, and my thoughts were mostly about the situation. I cannot recall thinking about the afterlife.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Did someone say "cocktail"?

 

[Tricky]

Did someone say "cocktail"?

In the afterlife, the first round's on me.

 

[maatorc]

1... Your statements seem to reflect an amalgam of various religions,
2... including pseudo-religions such as $cientology and Primal $cream "therapy." As such, they are pure bunkum with not a shred of evidence to support any of them.
3... I am therefore highly skeptical of the claims made by you and those made by Navigator. They advance our knowledge and understanding of the universe not one whit.

1... They have no connection with these ideas, but are written into every classic legend-myth-operation, including Osiris, The Iliad, The New Testament, The Gothic Cathedrals, Troubadours, The Grail, and The Shakespeare Canon, behind all of which there is an identical myth-knowledge system which is the source of what I have been saying. I am truly astonished by the level of ignorance here.
2... I agree there are pseudo religions such as Scientology, Primal Scream, and pseudo skeptical reductionist scientism, which are pure bunk with not a shred of evidence to support their tunnel visioned cultist belief systems.
3... You cannot reasonably judge what you do not know, do not understand, or blindly deny.

 

[Navigator]

But here on the skeptics boards, we discuss such things. If you bring such a premise to the boards, we will discuss it. As you can see, most skeptics are not going to agree with you.

That is very nice Tricky.
We are all here to learn, and this may not have anything to do with coming to any type of mutual agreement, which of course is great.
We all observe inter-reaction and discussion. We all know how petty belittling is and the wise among us steer away from such things. That is lovely.
As I will continue to declare – I am not concerned with ‘most’ skeptics agreeing with me or not, any more than I would be concerned whether most Christians or other religious types agree with me or not.

As long as you and I can lives our lives to the fullest and enjoy the experience for whatever we each think it is, what more can a couple of humans ask of each other?

Since most of it happened before any of us arrived on the scene, I'm going to bet the under and say "zero".

That’s correct as far as we know. Therefore we have learned to go with the flow and expect the unexpected.
We do have those who have gone before us, paving the way, telling us how it is or isn’t.
And of course we have the beautifully subjective experience of being a total individual.
Isn’t that just a splendidly perfect thing to embrace!

Really? What skill help prepare you for an extended consciousness that you know nothing about or even if it exists. Remember what I said about "the unknown"?

Why, those preparation skills come through being an individual consciousness, and experiencing things like leaving the body, seeing apparitions and other thing some believe are somehow tricks of the brain – yes those things can help prepare an individual for the possibility of a continuum of existence outside the confinements of a human instrument.

But mental flexibility and critical thinking are good skills to have in most situations. That's what most skeptics practice.

Of course they do – that’s what makes them so darn lovable!

The time spent planning for something that has no evidence of existing. Wasn't it you who was saying that planning for the extended consciousness is a good thing to do? Ah yes. Here it is.

I think the possibility that consciousness and a sense of self carrying on into another type of reality related to this one, is a good thing for an individual to contemplate, and even prepare for the likelihood of.

Call it planning or call it "preparing for the likelihood of". It means the same.

Yes of course – but my question was, and still is:

What ‘time’ is involved in preparation that is ‘wasted’ when you could be doing what ‘other things’?

It may very well be of course that those who experience OBE and other personal evidences are doing so in preparation for that transformative event.
As you have said yourself – you have experienced what you consider OBE and have placed it nice and neatly in your explanatory box, as being something your brain devised – but it was delusion.
So there are two aspects doing things within the one personality.
One is the brain and the other is your sense of self.
Your sense of self has concluded that your brain is just being tricky.
End of lesson, No need for any preps.
And by default, anyone else who says they have experienced such things, is also Delusional.
Well they are delusional and you are all better now.
It is thus your responsibility to take every opportunity to help your fellow human to snap out of their delusion and accept things as you have learned to accept things.
How honorable of you to spend some of your time to do this things for others.

Normally, when I am focusing my thought on one thing, then I am not deeply contemplating other things. Maybe you multitask better than I, but if I'm trying to figure out how to make a geological model represent the real world (part of my job) then I find it distracting to have my concentration interrupted.

Maybe. Or maybe you have turned the switch of that part of your brain completely?
It may even actually threaten your way of life, so is about survival (your job) in which case this is understandable.
Maybe.
However, if this is the case, it is not too wise to presume that onto others. Your experiences, however you care to think of them, are your own – just as mine are mine, however I interpret them.

Or is it the fear of continuing on after death which prevents you from any such contemplation?

No, of course not. In fact, I contemplate it often when discussing things here, but only because I enjoy sharing ideas. It is certainly not because I am planning for the afterlife, or that I fear one.

Brilliant! So nether of us is fearful one way or the other.
So essentially the way we differ here is that I consider my experiences to hint at the possibility of an afterlife, which I contemplate.
You think your experiences are delusion.
We both cannot jump into each others experience to verify they are even similar – they sound similar to you but not to me.
It is not fear but opinion that allows you not to ‘waste time’ contemplating,

I think a skeptic might respond to the happening somewhat like “Oh well look at that…my brains having a final fart before curtain fall”… and then…if that delusion doesn’t fold into oblivion…the skeptic will assess the situation and go about the business of getting to know that situation.

Well, I've thought I was dying before, and my thoughts were mostly about the situation. I cannot recall thinking about the afterlife.

Yep. I was talking about a possible scenario after you body has died. You found yourself still ‘alive’ in the sense that you still existed as a conscious reality, regardless of the fact that you believed it was not possible.

In the afterlife, the first round's on me.

 

[Tricky]

2... I agree there are pseudo religions such as Scientology, Primal Scream, and pseudo skeptical reductionist scientism, which are pure bunk with not a shred of evidence to support their tunnel visioned cultist belief systems.

3... You cannot reasonably judge what you do not know, do not understand, or blindly deny.

Somewhere between 2. and 3. my irony meter incurred a whiplash injury.

 

[maatorc]

Originally Posted by maatorc View Post
2... I agree there are pseudo religions such as Scientology, Primal Scream, and pseudo skeptical reductionist scientism, which are pure bunk with not a shred of evidence to support their tunnel visioned cultist belief systems.
3... You cannot reasonably judge what you do not know, do not understand, or blindly deny.

Somewhere between 2. and 3. my irony meter incurred a whiplash injury.

The irony is misplaced: Reductionist scientism is a sub-system cult which is very easy to understand by the very name and does not represent the scientific world view.

 

[Tricky]

That is very nice Tricky.
We are all here to learn, and this may not have anything to do with coming to any type of mutual agreement, which of course is great.

It can be great. I have certainly had some great times here in the six-plus years I've been here. But sometimes it is frustrating. Learning how someone else thinks can be interesting in and of itself, but learning something that I can actually apply to my life is infinitely better.

We all observe inter-reaction and discussion. We all know how petty belittling is and the wise among us steer away from such things. That is lovely.

Hey! Don't you call my belittling "petty". My belittling is masterful!
Seriously though, I don't mind swapping jabs with a person who wants to flame, but I try to mirror the tone of the poster I'm talking with. I'm a nice guy when I'm talking to nice guys. I'm a jerk when I'm talking to jerks. Hokulele would probably say I've been putting in some overtime on the jerk job. Yes, of course the innuendo was intentional.

As long as you and I can lives our lives to the fullest and enjoy the experience for whatever we each think it is, what more can a couple of humans ask of each other?

Humanists believe you should do what you can to help other humans to achieve this as well as ourselves. I'm a humanist.

That’s correct as far as we know. Therefore we have learned to go with the flow and expect the unexpected.

I hate that corny phrase. If it is unexpected, then you can't possibly expect it. It is like "knowing the unknown". But since I know you mean well, I'll avoid belittling you.

We do have those who have gone before us, paving the way, telling us how it is or isn’t.
And of course we have the beautifully subjective experience of being a total individual.
Isn’t that just a splendidly perfect thing to embrace!

Gosh, you're an upbeat guy!

Why, those preparation skills come through being an individual consciousness, and experiencing things like leaving the body, seeing apparitions and other thing some believe are somehow tricks of the brain – yes those things can help prepare an individual for the possibility of a continuum of existence outside the confinements of a human instrument.

How would you know unless you knew what such a continuum was like? Those things might be no use at all, depending on the nature of the continuum. There you go "knowing the unknown" again.

Of course they do – that’s what makes them so darn lovable!

You're cute when you're being sarcastic.

Yes of course – but my question was, and still is:

What ‘time’ is involved in preparation that is ‘wasted’ when you could be doing what ‘other things’?

And I answered it once, but I'll simplify: Any time you spend trying to know the unknowable is wasted inasmuch as you still won't know the unknowable. Sure you may find it pleasurable. In that sense it is not wasted, but it provides you no additional knowledge.

Now I'm not saying you are like some Egyptian Pharaoh who spends years building a big monument for his afterlife, but it's the same idea.

It may very well be of course that those who experience OBE and other personal evidences are doing so in preparation for that transformative event.

It may be, but since all evidence indicates that said event is merely the transformation from living to dead, it seems unlikely. And I don't think my OBE's prepared me for doodly.

As you have said yourself – you have experienced what you consider OBE and have placed it nice and neatly in your explanatory box, as being something your brain devised – but it was delusion.
So there are two aspects doing things within the one personality.
One is the brain and the other is your sense of self.
Your sense of self has concluded that your brain is just being tricky.

Yes, and I have evidence for that. The combination of medication and education has pretty much eliminated my OBE's along with many of the other unpleasant effects of Panic Syndrome. Not completely, mind you. My brain is still tricky.

End of lesson, No need for any preps.

LOL. Yes, Teacher.

And by default, anyone else who says they have experienced such things, is also Delusional.

Not necessarily. Those that have evidence of their mind actually existing apart from their bodies are not delusional. I haven't been shown any cases like that, but I won't deny the possibility that they could exist. Do you know of any?

Well they are delusional and you are all better now.

I am better now. Not all better, but better.

It is thus your responsibility to take every opportunity to help your fellow human to snap out of their delusion and accept things as you have learned to accept things.
How honorable of you to spend some of your time to do this things for others.

You're so cute when you're being sarcastic. I'm here because I like to discuss things. I ain't no bloody Albert Schweitzer.

Maybe. Or maybe you have turned the switch of that part of your brain completely?
It may even actually threaten your way of life, so is about survival (your job) in which case this is understandable.
Maybe.

I think you have taken the wrong message. You seemed to be implying that anybody can think about two things at once. Well, that is true, they can, but they will not be able to think about either one as carefully as they could if the focused on one. When you were in school, did you study for two subjects simultaneously? If so, you have my admiration. I had to do one at a time.

Brilliant! So nether of us is fearful one way or the other.

Sure I'm fearful. I don't want to die. Very few people do. Heck, very few organisms do. Survival is one of the strongest urges in nature, for good reason. But I'm just afraid of dying, I'm not afraid of being dead. The most obvious (to me) reason why anyone would invent or accept an elaborate, unsupported fantasy about consciousness beyond death would be that they are fearful of being dead. Or, if you prefer, call it "joyful at the thought of retaining a living consciousness". Toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe.

So essentially the way we differ here is that I consider my experiences to hint at the possibility of an afterlife, which I contemplate.
You think your experiences are delusion.
We both cannot jump into each others experience to verify they are even similar – they sound similar to you but not to me.
It is not fear but opinion that allows you not to ‘waste time’ contemplating.

I have evidence that my OBE's were delusion. Studies have shown that OBE's are a fairly common side-effect of panic syndrome. They have treatments which help reduce or eliminate them.

While I can't "jump into" your experiences, I cannot see that you have shown any evidence that your experiences are anything other than delusional. I don't mean that as an insult. I freely admit that I have been delusional. I find it an unpleasant state. Your mileage may vary.

Yep. I was talking about a possible scenario after you body has died. You found yourself still ‘alive’ in the sense that you still existed as a conscious reality, regardless of the fact that you believed it was not possible.

How would you test this "possible scenario"? What evidence leads you to believe that it is possible?

 

[Foster Zygote]

In the afterlife, the first round's on me.

I'll have a Caucasian.

 

[Navigator]

It can be great. I have certainly had some great times here in the six-plus years I've been here. But sometimes it is frustrating. Learning how someone else thinks can be interesting in and of itself, but learning something that I can actually apply to my life is infinitely better.

Frustration is borne of expectation I think.

Hey! Don't you call my belittling "petty". My belittling is masterful!

Yeah right…and I am ‘cute’

Seriously though, I don't mind swapping jabs with a person who wants to flame, but I try to mirror the tone of the poster I'm talking with. I'm a nice guy when I'm talking to nice guys. I'm a jerk when I'm talking to jerks. Hokulele would probably say I've been putting in some overtime on the jerk job.

Kinda ‘be’ all things’ to all men’ What in your window was that?

Sometime that is an effective policy.

Humanists believe you should do what you can to help other humans to achieve this as well as ourselves. I'm a humanist.

Oh okay – I’m not. But you might not agree.

I hate that corny phrase. If it is unexpected, then you can't possibly expect it. It is like "knowing the unknown". But since I know you mean well, I'll avoid belittling you.

How about “be prepared to be unprepared?”

Gosh, you're an upbeat guy!

I can do off beat too.

How would you know unless you knew what such a continuum was like? Those things might be no use at all, depending on the nature of the continuum. There you go "knowing the unknown" again.

Yes well I didn’t say it is ‘this or that’ I have a few theories based on what is happening this side of the black stump.

You're cute when you're being sarcastic.

*blush*

Any time you spend trying to know the unknowable is wasted inasmuch as you still won't know the unknowable. Sure you may find it pleasurable. In that sense it is not wasted, but it provides you no additional knowledge.

I said preparation…you know…what do you take when you sail a ship into the unknown?
You take what you think you might need.
In the case of being prepared, it is about my acceptance of the possibility that I might still exist…what might the situation be, based on what I have already experienced?
I have additional knowledge with the experiences I have had.
I can choose to ignore it altogether or for the sake of some semblance of normality, I can block it out…nope, I can’t.
I am too curious.

Now I'm not saying you are like some Egyptian Pharaoh who spends years building a big monument for his afterlife, but it's the same idea.

Nope. Not at all…otherwise I might want my guitar, my worldly possessions and my slaves buried with me.
My body will feed the earth…well no, I am planning to donate it to science…or alternatively, be embalmed in epoxy resin and will that monument to my relations.
Having experienced what I have experienced, I am more interested in the consciousness I am than the aging body I am in.

It may be, but since all evidence indicates that said event is merely the transformation from living to dead, it seems unlikely. And I don't think my OBE's prepared me for doodly.

Someone I used to think I knew, experienced multiple sexual abuse from the age of 8 until 14.
She told me that after awhile she disengaged with her sense of self as a way of not being there while the deed was being done.
When you told me of your OBEs, this remained me of what she had told me.
That is why I don’t think we had the same thing.

Yes, and I have evidence for that. The combination of medication and education has pretty much eliminated my OBE's along with many of the other unpleasant effects of Panic Syndrome. Not completely, mind you. My brain is still tricky.

I have spoken with a person recently about voices in her thoughts. Sometime they are good – often they are not.
Meds help interrupt those realities.

I think it is possible that some people’s brains are wired in such a way that they are tuned into these voices.

Not necessarily. Those that have evidence of their mind actually existing apart from their bodies are not delusional. I haven't been shown any cases like that, but I won't deny the possibility that they could exist. Do you know of any?

The possibility that they exist… We are speaking of something that is exceptionally hard to pin down into solid reality.
I do not think that it will happen any time soon. I am not ready to give myself over to a ‘professional’ to help me sort out my experiences. Maybe once upon a time, but you know what is said about necessity and invention.
I have experience stuff I know would have had a lot of folk running (even screaming) for the meds and other such help (even the church)…btw that is no Judgement or finger pointing statement…at you or anyone else.
I understand why folk DO ask for help. I didn’t (well I did, but it was useless) – so I faced the ‘demon’ and,,,well it gave me a heads up.
Took me a few years after the fact to sort out the details though.

I am better now. Not all better, but better.

think you have taken the wrong message. You seemed to be implying that anybody can think about two things at once. Well, that is true, they can, but they will not be able to think about either one as carefully as they could if the focused on one. When you were in school, did you study for two subjects simultaneously? If so, you have my admiration. I had to do one at a time.

I never really thought about it too much Tricky. I have been thinking like this for awhile, so I have adapted. I think of things in relation to an overarching consciousness which tends to bind everything together, rather than thinking in terms of everything being separate and disconnected.
So when I said “perfect” I wasn’t being totally sarcastic…
(any more than I am being totally cute)

Sure I'm fearful. I don't want to die. Very few people do. Heck, very few organisms do. Survival is one of the strongest urges in nature, for good reason. But I'm just afraid of dying, I'm not afraid of being dead. The most obvious (to me) reason why anyone would invent or accept an elaborate, unsupported fantasy about consciousness beyond death would be that they are fearful of being dead. Or, if you prefer, call it "joyful at the thought of retaining a living consciousness". Toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe.

Being fearful of being dead is silly.
Being afraid of the way you might die, that aint so silly.
Being fearful of still being around after the body has died, well THAT could be scary…you know – not really knowing what to expect and all.
Another good reason for not wanting to contemplate possibilities – one could ‘go places’ .

Hehe…

A great reason to embrace nothingness.
Especially when life on Earth has shown the unpredictable nature of nature.

Oh well – the earth was flat once as far as beliefs went. I guess it took some kind of different person to step over the line and explore.

I have evidence that my OBE's were delusion. Studies have shown that OBE's are a fairly common side-effect of panic syndrome. They have treatments which help reduce or eliminate them.

That is why I don’t think what you experienced is what I did. Any kind of fear seems to inhibit the process, at least from my own experiences, I have found this to be so.

While I can't "jump into" your experiences, I cannot see that you have shown any evidence that your experiences are anything other than delusional. I don't mean that as an insult. I freely admit that I have been delusional. I find it an unpleasant state. Your mileage may vary.

I agree.

What evidence did you give to those who prescribed your meds that convinced them you were delusional?

How would you test this "possible scenario"? What evidence leads you to believe that it is possible?

As I have said, the evidence is subjective. There is no evidence which has been offered which can prove 100% that I have just experienced a brain delusion.
Until there is, I am free to use what personal experience I have had, to develop my own kind of fun.
I sailed to the edge of that world and didn’t fall off.