Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

[Darth Rotor]

They're not trapped. They are free to leave.

In fact, tens of thousands are applying for the permission from their own government (PA) to do exactly that. Israel routinely rubber-stamps those requests.

Your post seems to contradict itself. I am confused. Are they free to leave, or must the ask permission of the PA and Israel to leave?

However, in Gaza a "fatwa" has been issued which prohibits people from emigrating.

OK, so they are not free to leave? Still confused.

Every time Israel makes some effort to open the crossings for gazans to enter Israel for work, or travel, we see HAMAS & Co. actually rocketing and mortaring the crossing points!

About that fence with Egypt. Hamas seems to have had to blow up the fence so Gazans could go shopping in Egypt. (A loose summary of a more complicated story.) Free to leave? (Yes, it's an international boundary with Egypt, so it has features natural to political borders.)

So, I'll ask, if they are free to leave, where are they free to enter? If you leave Gaza, you have to go somewhere, right?

DR

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

Nice lie. I did not make up a quote, I quoted what you posted. Did you go back and edit after I replied. Let's see.
From post #391.

The truth is not a lie. Where did I claim that it as you who posted the original false quote? I did not. What I did do was highlight the fact that you did not in any way indicate that posting deliberately false quotes was wrong in any way, which was the point of the post you responded to. if you now wish to accept that posting false quotes is unacceptable please do so, because to date you have not done so and that was the content of my original post to which you responded. My post to you therefore remaisn completely accurate.

Are you sure meant to reply to me? Your initial beef was with another poster. webfusion. Not spelled much like Darth Rotor. Whinge away, but at least whinge in the proper direction.

I meant to reply to you and my post to you remains as posted. You decided to intervene in a post of mine to webbfusion where I demonstrated his deliberate use of a quote that was factually incorrect. I did not see anywhere in your post that you had a problem with that in fact you seemed to be defending the deliberate use of misquotes when you stated "... In this case, the propensity for hyperbole may poison your warning, Cassandra." Therefore my post to you was and remains completely accurate and I am happy for it to stand. I also note your use of personal abuse as a substitute for rational argument once again. THis has been brought to your attention an many occasions so I can only assume that your use of it is deliberate.

Spins is spin, and you are doing a fine job of making yourself dizzy. Can't tell what you posted, and accuse me of misquoting you when I use your own words.

i did no suach thing, as I believe you know. As clearly explained you appeared to support the use of deliberate misquotes by your post. I therefore stand completely by my post to you as I have shown it was completely accurate.

What does Andersonville have to do with Gaza? There were no free elections in Andersonville. There were free elections in Gaza. Much to the chagrin of Israel, Hamas won. Irony, that.

DR

Andersonville was a military concentration camp set up by military forces in the USA - not unlike Guantanamo bay. Gaza is a concentration camp set up by the Israeli government. It seems that people who use torture such as Hamas are not to be talked to but people who use torture like the Bush regime running the USA are. Kafkaesque or what?

 

[mrbaracuda]

Your post seems to contradict itself. I am confused. Are they free to leave, or must the ask permission of the PA and Israel to leave?

OK, so they are not free to leave? Still confused.

About that fence with Egypt. Hamas seems to have had to blow up the fence so Gazans could go shopping in Egypt. (A loose summary of a more complicated story.) Free to leave? (Yes, it's an international boundary with Egypt, so it has features natural to political borders.)

So, I'll ask, if they are free to leave, where are they free to enter? If you leave Gaza, you have to go somewhere, right?

DR

As for the West Bank (controlled by PA, right?) I think they need to get permission from the PA to leave so they can clear it up with Israel who will then stamp the papers. It's not the freedom you and I might enjoy, but it doesn't sound like they can't leave at all and given the special situation they have over there, a bit paperwork seems to be necessary.

Now Gaza sounds like they, as in Hamas, got an iron grip on their citizens. I don't know if webfusions (? maybe it was yairhol?) story of Hamas shelling opened check points to herd them back into the strip holds any merit, but well, it's Hamas.

Let's wait for webfusion though.

 

[yairhol]

Here, I'll repeat my post from the previous page since everyone's ignoring it:

If you were a Palestinian in Gaza you could go to Egypt and from there fly abroad:

http://www.arikpeace.org/Eng/Index.a...&ArticleID=969
"...Should that particular Palestinian wish to fly abroad, he will have to do so via Egypt instead of using Ben-Gurion Airport..."


However, when there is a medical need Israel helps those people:

http://www.nyjtimes.com/Heritage/News/July2803.htm
"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Israel Helps Palestinian Children Fly Abroad for Medical Treatment[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Israeli Civil Administration officials in the West Bank facilitated the flight of seven Palestinian children, ages 5 to 10, to Italy for lifesaving medical treatment, THE JERUSALEM POST reported..."[/FONT]


I tried looking for more information on TheFool's question above but could not find much.
It would be interesting to call the office of the ministry of interior and get an official answer on that.

A Palestinian living in Judea and Samaria would fly aborad through Jordan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allenby_Bridge
"...Palestinians travelling abroad must use this bridge [Alenby] to exit the Judea and Samaria region into Jordan and then use the Queen Alia International Airport in Amman to fly abroad...."

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

Here, I'll repeat my post from the previous page since everyone's ignoring it:

Please tell us all how do Palestinians students in Gaza get to their courses if they are free to leave the Gaza concentration camp?

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

It's not the freedom you and I might enjoy, but it doesn't sound like they can't leave at all and given the special situation they have over there, a bit paperwork seems to be necessary.

For the reality of living under the Israeli government's control see: -

"Gaza's border closures are without precedent. Palestinians are effectively incarcerated. The overwhelming majority cannot leave or enter Gaza. "

from http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2245299,00.html

where it also states: -

"Many have had their treatment delayed or denied, worsening their medical conditions and causing preventable deaths."

 

[WildCat]

For the reality of living under the Israeli government's control see: -

"Gaza's border closures are without precedent. Palestinians are effectively incarcerated. The overwhelming majority cannot leave or enter Gaza. "

from http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2245299,00.html

where it also states: -

"Many have had their treatment delayed or denied, worsening their medical conditions and causing preventable deaths."

I guess voting terrorists in as your government has consequences. This surprises you why, exactly?

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

I guess voting terrorists in as your government has consequences. This surprises you why, exactly?

And the international crime of collective punishment of entire groups of people is legal under which law?

it appears that Menachem Begin an Irgun terrorist was elected as well? I note that Israel provides medals in celebration of the Stern gang's terrorism terrorism in the form of the Lehi medal.
See http://faculty.winthrop.edu/haynese/medals/israeliepe.html

I condemn all terrorism whether committed by Hamas, the Irgun, Stern gang, IRA, CIA or IDF. Do you?

 

[Darth Rotor]

The truth is not a lie. Where did I claim that it as you who posted the original false quote? I did not. What I did do was highlight the fact that you did not in any way indicate that posting deliberately false quotes was wrong in any way, which was the point of the post you responded to.

Have you stopped beating your wife? It seems we were not communicating well, as I was trying to point out that your MO renders your protestations suspect. So, given your short fuseand high strung manner, it escalated to pointless bickering. Can't take a joke is a lousy way to go throughl life, EJ. Pardon me for expecting you to be able to, my error.

As to that matter, as we drift off topic, I do not consider falsely quoting another poster to be correct, and I find the MA in support of my position.

Are you happy now?

Andersonville was a military concentration camp set up by military forces in the USA - not unlike Guantanamo bay.

Yes, unlike Guantanamo bay, in detail and in context. One detail of note: people are, for example, fed and given medical treatment in Gitmo, which has been the subject of much press coverage since it was set up.

Next error?

DR

 

[WildCat]

And the international crime of collective punishment of entire groups of people is legal under which law?

Actually, the law forbids aiding and abetting terrorist groups, one of which the people of Palestine decided to elect as their government in overwhelming numbers. A most unfortunate choice, as it also carried the penalty of slowing foreign aid to a trickle.

it appears that Menachem Begin an Irgun terrorist was elected as well? I note that Israel provides medals in celebration of the Stern gang's terrorism terrorism in the form of the Lehi medal.
See http://faculty.winthrop.edu/haynese/medals/israeliepe.html

Are you claiming that deceased Irgun terrorists are secretly running the Israeli government? If not, completely irrelevant.

I condemn all terrorism whether committed by Hamas, the Irgun, Stern gang, IRA, CIA or IDF.

Yet you only start threads condemning the US and Israel for some reason.

Do you?

Absolutely, though I suspect my definition is different than your overly broad one.

 

[webfusion]

If you leave Gaza, you have to go somewhere, right?

If you leave anywhere, you have to go somewhere, right?

Are they free to leave, or must the ask permission of the PA and Israel to leave?

FYI -- When I went to the airport to leave Israel, I needed to obtain a special "permission" of the IDF which showed that I was not under a current reserves call-up order. My Israeli passport did not give me the "freedom" to leave, without that official permit.

Anyway, Gaza, has no disembarkation points to any overseas locations. They could have had an International Airport, but they 'effed up that opportunity.

I don't know if webfusions story of Hamas shelling opened check points to herd them back into the strip holds any merit...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/04/world/middleeast/04mideast.html?fta=y (june 2007)
and
http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/updates/2007/08/1504.htm (august 2007)

 

[Kestrel]

Actually, the law forbids aiding and abetting terrorist groups, one of which the people of Palestine decided to elect as their government in overwhelming numbers. A most unfortunate choice, as it also carried the penalty of slowing foreign aid to a trickle.

The other choice was to re-elect the bastards who had been siphoning off large chunks of foreign aid for personal use.

 

[WildCat]

The other choice was to re-elect the bastards who had been siphoning off large chunks of foreign aid for personal use.

These things happen when you elect terrorist groups to power.

Of course, they also have a choice to form political parties that don't promise endless jihad against Israel and actually seek a way to find a peaceful co-existence, but apparently that view isn't very popular there.

Just as the Germans paid the price for electing Nazis to run their country, Palestinians pay the price for electing terrorists to run theirs. Choices have consequences.

 

[The Fool]

FYI -- When I went to the airport to leave Israel, I needed to obtain a special "permission" of the IDF which showed that I was not under a current reserves call-up order. My Israeli passport did not give me the "freedom" to leave, without that official permit.

Anyway, Gaza, has no disembarkation points to any overseas locations. They could have had an International Airport, but they 'effed up that opportunity.

So how is the fact that you are not free to leave Israel relevant to your claim that Palestinians are free to leave Gaza?
Can I assume this is going to be the Usual? "free to leave Gaza" morphes into something like may leave if Israel allows....and throw in that is thier own fault to round it out?

 

[webfusion]

T-F, I was free to leave Israel, once I had a visa to enter another country, and once I had the permission from the relevant Israeli authorities. I had to undergo a stringent pre-flight security check before boarding the aircraft, and show all my official documentation (National Identity Card, State-Issued Passport, National Insurance Institute authorization, Foreign Visa, the IDF release, and in my case, I even had to obtain National Security Clearance papers).

Gazans need to pass through one of two different Border Control Checks in order to leave Gaza. I assume you've seen a map of the area? On two sides, Gaza is surrounded by "enemy territory" (as they define it -- the hated Zionist Entity) and on a third side they have Egypt, which is (AFAIK) threatening to shoot anyone who dares to pull a stunt like they did last month. The deep blue Sea is a natural barrier to the fourth side of the Gaza Strip, and Gaza has no formal port facility. No cruise-ships can dock there.
Not every human being on Earth automatically qualifies for being admitted into Israeli territory, for a variety of reasons. The same thing with Egypt -- they have rules and regulations at their border about who can enter Egyptian territory. Go figure.

So, my claim morphs into --- Gazans are free to leave, under normal administrative procedures of Border Control Agencies in the surrounding Nations. DUH.

 

[The Fool]

T-F, I was free to leave Israel, once I had a visa to enter another country, and once I had the permission from the relevant Israeli authorities. I had to undergo a stringent pre-flight security check before boarding the aircraft, and show all my official documentation (National Identity Card, State-Issued Passport, National Insurance Institute authorization, Foreign Visa, the IDF release, and in my case, I even had to obtain National Security Clearance papers).

Gazans need to pass through one of two different Border Control Checks in order to leave Gaza. I assume you've seen a map of the area? On two sides, Gaza is surrounded by "enemy territory" (as they define it -- the hated Zionist Entity) and on a third side they have Egypt, which is (AFAIK) threatening to shoot anyone who dares to pull a stunt like they did last month. The deep blue Sea is a natural barrier to the fourth side of the Gaza Strip, and Gaza has no formal port facility. No cruise-ships can dock there.
Not every human being on Earth automatically qualifies for being admitted into Israeli territory, for a variety of reasons. The same thing with Egypt -- they have rules and regulations at their border about who can enter Egyptian territory. Go figure.

So, my claim morphs into --- Gazans are free to leave, under normal administrative procedures of Border Control Agencies in the surrounding Nations. DUH.

Gazans are not free to leave Gaza. I think even you are looking back at your statement and understanding how clearly wrong it is.They can leave if the Israel chooses to let them. If you want to continue to stick to your very very interesting new spin on "free to leave" then all prisoners in all prisons throughout the world are "free to leave"...They can leave whenever they like....so long as they have permission of the gatekeeper.

 

[webfusion]

T-F claims:

Gazans are not free to leave Gaza.

Yeah, well, except when they want to leave, and the HAMAS attempts to stop them.

"...the PA and Israel arranged for thousands of Gaza Hajj pilgrims to travel in buses through Israel to the West Bank. Hamas seems to be blocking the pilgrims, saying that they will need to use the Rafah crossing to Egypt, so Israel wouldn't be involved." - media reports, November 2007.
Despite the opposition of HAMAS to the exit of gazans, nearly 500 Palestinians left the Gaza Strip to make the Muslim pilgrimage of Hajj to Mecca in Saudi Arabia, through Israeli territory, in December '07.

Here's the deal ---- if you are a Gaza resident, you have three choices.
South. Passage through Egypt.
North/East. Passage through Israel.
West. Swim.

What would you suggest the alternative is? Magic Carpet Ride?

 

[webfusion]

Travel agents report a brisk demand for visas to Cuba, one of the few places that welcomes Palestinians. More than 20 factories have moved out of Gaza in recent months (Dec 2006). Driven by fear of civil war and increasingly bleak economic prospects, Palestinians are fleeing their violence-wracked lands in growing numbers...
Those with tourist visas to Cuba often don't plan to go there. Instead, they get off in transit at a European airport, rip up their Palestinian travel document and seek asylum.

--- Sarah El Deeb (AP)


In Gaza, "free to leave" just means that you have to have the money, the proper travel documents, including a visa, and are willing to defy the Fatwa against leaving.
You wanna leave, then properly arrange your affairs to go, and Israeli authorities won't truly stand in your way. The demographics of emigration from gaza show that this is true.
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=gz&v=27

 

[a_unique_person]

Travel agents report a brisk demand for visas to Cuba, one of the few places that welcomes Palestinians. More than 20 factories have moved out of Gaza in recent months (Dec 2006). Driven by fear of civil war and increasingly bleak economic prospects, Palestinians are fleeing their violence-wracked lands in growing numbers...
Those with tourist visas to Cuba often don't plan to go there. Instead, they get off in transit at a European airport, rip up their Palestinian travel document and seek asylum.

--- Sarah El Deeb (AP)


In Gaza, "free to leave" just means that you have to have the money, the proper travel documents, including a visa, and are willing to defy the Fatwa against leaving.
You wanna leave, then properly arrange your affairs to go, and Israeli authorities won't truly stand in your way. The demographics of emigration from gaza show that this is true.
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=gz&v=27

It's that easy. If you make life so intolerable for them, they will leave.

 

[WildCat]

It's that easy. If you make life so intolerable for them, they will leave.

Seems to me they made life intolerable for themselves by having terrorists lead them for the last 40 years.

It's a long series of bad choices by the Palestinians that has them in the state they're in.