Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

[The Fool]

T-F claims:

Yeah, well, except when they want to leave, and the HAMAS attempts to stop them.

"...the PA and Israel arranged for thousands of Gaza Hajj pilgrims to travel in buses through Israel to the West Bank. Hamas seems to be blocking the pilgrims, saying that they will need to use the Rafah crossing to Egypt, so Israel wouldn't be involved." - media reports, November 2007.
Despite the opposition of HAMAS to the exit of gazans, nearly 500 Palestinians left the Gaza Strip to make the Muslim pilgrimage of Hajj to Mecca in Saudi Arabia, through Israeli territory, in December '07.

Here's the deal ---- if you are a Gaza resident, you have three choices.
South. Passage through Egypt.
North/East. Passage through Israel.
West. Swim.

What would you suggest the alternative is? Magic Carpet Ride?

Its mildly amusing how many times you can attempt to rewrite things to avoid tripping over the elephant in the room. Gazans require the OK of Israel if they want to leave...This is not an accident of Geography,no OK, no leave.

They are not free to leave. Now web...you can restate it in any way you like and use any spin you like to try to quietly leave that little detail out....but.... Thousands of Prisoners leave australian prisons every year...thousands of them.... Australian Prisoners must be free to leave eh?


So rather than risk being accused of obsession...as with the Cranes. Please feel free to live in an alternate reality and simply believe what you spin up. Gazans are free to leave, web has officially wished the requirement for Israeli permission out of existance....vanished in a puff of smoke.

 

[webfusion]

Its mildly amusing how many times you can attempt to rewrite things to avoid tripping over the elephant in the room. Gazans require the OK of Israel if they want to leave...This is not an accident of Geography,no OK, no leave.

They are not free to leave. Now web...you can restate it in any way you like and use any spin you like to try to quietly leave that little detail out....but.... Thousands of Prisoners leave australian prisons every year...thousands of them.... Australian Prisoners must be free to leave eh?


So rather than risk being accused of obsession...as with the Cranes. Please feel free to live in an alternate reality and simply believe what you spin up. Gazans are free to leave, web has officially wished the requirement for Israeli permission out of existance....vanished in a puff of smoke.

What are YOU smoking?

Look, T-F, this isn't really that hard:
Sami from Gaza (you, in the hypothetical) need to obtain a visa from somewhere, then go through proper administrative channels, and do whatever normal people everywhere do when trying to move through an airport or seaport --- that's called "being free to leave" in the lexicon of international travel.

Gazans do it all the time. They emigrate by the tens of thousands annually. The "OK" of Israel is irrelevant in the context of what we're talking about. The "OK" of Israel is necessary for every man, woman, and child who wants to leave Israel. There are procedures to follow, as I illustrated in my own anecdotal evidence. Would you say that I wasn't Free to Leave, just because I had to obtain all kinds of official documentation to do so?

Thank you for your continued participation.

 

[yairhol]

They are not free to leave.

Are you saying that Gazans are trapped and cannot leave abroad legally?
Or are you saying that it is difficult for them leave?

 

[a_unique_person]

Seems to me they made life intolerable for themselves by having terrorists lead them for the last 40 years.

It's a long series of bad choices by the Palestinians that has them in the state they're in.

The thread title is a hint that there is more to this than just what they have control over.


Also, how many terrorists have been Israeli Prime Ministers?

 

[yairhol]

Also, how many terrorists have been Israeli Prime Ministers?

zero

 

[webfusion]

Are you saying that Gazans are trapped and cannot leave abroad legally?
Or are you saying that it is difficult for them leave?

According to his posts so far, T-F considers them trapped, like in a "concentration camp" or prison, and they cannot leave on their own accord, but only with Israeli permission.

The problem with that line of thought is this:

All nations have border-control requirements of who can and who cannot enter.
Gaza is isolated geographically (no deep-water port, no air terminal) and as far into the future as I can imagine, gaza will never have "freedom" from Israeli oversight at some levels. Never.
Since it is now controlled by an officially-recognized terror organization, that gives Israel serious pause when considering who can and who cannot just waltz into Israeli territory

T-F is making an attempt to show that Israel is at fault for keeping the gazans in gaza.
They have no visas, because no country besides Cuba is willing to give them one --
Israel's fault.
They have no money with which to start a new life elsewhere --
Israel's fault.
They have no airport in Gaza --
Israel's fault.
They have no sea port --
Israel's fault.
They have a 'fatwa' prohibiting them from leaving 'sacred islamic land' --
Israel's fault.

 

[yairhol]

How about going through Egypt? Although that would not solve the Visa problems Palestinians have. While in Egypt they can ask for visas or do whatever the Egyptian government allows them. I guess although they would still need Israel's permission to go to Egypt, they would not need to pass physically through Israel which makes life much easier for us and them.

 

[webfusion]

Yairhol, this entire line of discussion about the "concentration camp" of gaza, actuaally began with EJ Armstrong, to which I offered post #395 stating, in full:

They're not trapped. They are free to leave. In fact, tens of thousands are applying for the permission from their own government (PA) to do exactly that. Israel routinely rubber-stamps those requests.

That entire quote indicates that permission is needed to enter Israel. That was never in question! Israel's border with Gaza is not like the border between France and Italy.

As for the remark about Egypt, this is a matter of ongoing negotiations right now between the European Union, Egypt, Israel and the Palestinian Authority. (Both the HAMAS and Fatah contingents)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7261151.stm

By the way, Israel has a long border with Egyptian Sinai, and is currently trying to determine how best to stop infiltrators flowing out of Africa.
"Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Sunday had ordered the defense establishment to step up efforts to prevent the illegal infiltration of job-seeking Africans into Israel through the border with Egypt." -- Barak Ravid, in Ha'Aretz.

 

[WildCat]

The thread title is a hint that there is more to this than just what they have control over.

Perhaps if they had admitted defeat 40 years ago and not gone on a pointless 40-year jihad they could have actually had a viable state long ago, one that isn't a regional pariah beset by poverty, hopelessness, and isolation.

Plenty of other places have managed to do it - Germany, Japan, and Italy after WWII for example. You know, countries that admitted defeat and sued for peace.

The Palestinians have no one but themselves to blame for their predicament.

 

[webfusion]

T-F predicted:

from post # 414 Can I assume this is going to be the Usual? "free to leave Gaza" morphes into something like may leave if Israel allows....and throw in that is their own fault to round it out?

and WildCat has delivered:

The Palestinians have no one but themselves to blame for their predicament.

Does T-F get the JREF Million $$$ ?? !! (sorry WildCat, but I couldn't resist, you walked right into that one)

 

[WildCat]

Does T-F get the JREF Million $$$ ?? !! (sorry WildCat, but I couldn't resist, you walked right into that one)

You don't get $1 million for "predicting" that someone will state a known fact.

 

[mrbaracuda]

Plenty of other places have managed to do it - Germany

Will you come here and free us yet again, this time of the socialist scum once it's running the place, though?

 

[a_unique_person]

zero

Lets start with Sharon.

 

[a_unique_person]

Seems to me they made life intolerable for themselves by having terrorists lead them for the last 40 years.

It's a long series of bad choices by the Palestinians that has them in the state they're in.

They've been under military occupation for 40 years. How would the US react to such a situation. When the US has been in the situation that it has had to defeat it's enemies, it has been more than prepared to attack civilian targets.

The Oslo accords were supposed to lead to peace, instead Israel demonstrated it would not negotiate about a withdrawal from the West Bank, which is what this is all about. Instead it is more interested in what has been happening all along, taking as much land as possible. Sharon left the Gaza Strip, but only because the situation there was untenable, due to terrorism. you tell me what has workd for the Palestinians so far. It looks to me like terrorism has worked. (I don't think it is the long term solution, myself.)

 

[gtc]

Lets start with Sharon.

Let's start with evidence (and Michael Leunig cartoons don't count as evidence).

 

[a_unique_person]

Unit 101.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_101

 

[webfusion]

Unit 101 was a duly constituted legal military unit, which pursued combat operations according to governmental orders.

Yes, some people want to say that IDF missions are "terrorism" (see: IDF General Doron Almog) and that the State of Israel is practicing "state terrorism" (see: Settlements and Land Confiscations) --- but saying so just don't make it so, Charlie.

 

[quixotecoyote]

wrong thread

 

[mrbaracuda]

They've been under military occupation for 40 years.

Germany had been under military occupation for 40 years by four countries, among them our "hereditary enemy" and the much despised Bolsheviks, we also lost territories much bigger than the "Palestinians" did and not only to one country but to three or four.

As WildCat said: We accepted our defeat. Now we're one of the richest countries in the world and our standard of living is probably one of the highest throughout the world together with some other EU countries. So what's your point?

 

[ddt]

Germany had been under military occupation for 40 years by four countries, among them our "hereditary enemy" and the much despised Bolsheviks, we also lost territories much bigger than the "Palestinians" did and not only to one country but to three or four.

While technically true that the military occupation only ended with the 4+2 treaty in 1990, how many Germans could identify which US/UK/French/Russian troops were there as occupier and which were there as NATO/Warsaw Pact forces, after, say, 1954 when the BRD/FRG joined NATO?

As to the territories lost: in absolute terms, you're right, but only because 1937-Germany was much bigger than 1948-mandate Palestine. Not in relative terms: the PLO before Oslo acknowledged the 1967 borders as basis for a settlement, meaning they gave up 78% of that land. While at the same time, Israel doesn't seem intent on doing the reverse, especially not in the "facts on the ground" category, with Israeli settlements on the West Bank ever expanding.

The borders of post-war Germany were fixed quite rapidly after WW2, still in 1945, and haven't been moving since - and there wasn't any sign from the Great Powers that it would. You may also note that the BRD didn't acknowledge those borders until 1970.

The Palestinians don't have the assurance of some fixed, future borders at all, as shown nearly daily.

ETA: The Israelis thus far haven't even acknowledged the Palestinians' rights to have a state. The Great Four granted the Germans the right to found even two states!