Split thread: I sell magnetic therapy products

[Pup]

A simple trial for you to do ask someone who by wearing a magnet has helped and tell them to take it off!

You do understand that that's not a trial to prove whether the magnet works, don't you? It's a trial to see how much the person believes it works. You could test any lucky charm the same way.

How about a simple double-blind trial where half the people are given an identical-seeming non-magnetic item, and half are given a magnetic one, and then asked afterwards about improvement?

 

[Madalch]

I'm happy in my world and electrons do spin within an externally applied magnetic field.
This spin increases energy, this increased energy helps separate red blood cells, separated red blood cells which have increased energy potential will absorbe oxygen more efficiently than red blood cells stacked together AND will pass through a cappillary (stacked blood cells won't).

Electrons don't spin. They have a characteristic that is -called- spin, for purely historical reasons, but the electrons themselves are not spinning. Placing an unpaired electron in a magnetic field causes it to align either with (decreasing its energy) or against the magnetic field (increasing its energy).

However, all the electrons in a diamagnetic compound like hemoglobin are paired, which means that the two electrons sharing an orbital will have their spins aligned in opposite directions regardless of what external magnetic field is applied.

Even if the magnetic field were to increase the energy of the electrons of a substance, how would that translate to separating red blood cells? Do you have any idea of the size difference between an electron and a red blood cell? That's like trying to shake the entire solar system by setting forest fires on Earth.

Ask Rose Shapiro who wrote an article in the Daily Mail last month which will be included in her new book, Suckers, what she means when she says:
"But those "medical researchers" are wrong. The iron in blood is repelled, not attracted by magnets. If magnets had any real effect on our blood, then no human would survive the enormous magnetic fields generated during an MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) scan". End quote.

Like I said, hemoglobin (along with nearly every other molecule in the human body) is diamagnetic, and thus weakly repelled by a magnetic field.

This won't make much of an effect in the magnets used in an MRI, but if you use a stronger magnet, you can see the results on a frog here:
http://www.hfml.ru.nl/levitation-movies.html

 

[Lanzy]

I would also like a link, (I know your posts are low, but you've certainly used enough words by now) to "any" of the double blind studies used to prove magnets of any kind actually work. I have some severe cronic pain and would love relief without the daily pills I take. However, I tried magnets, nada, nothing, no relief. Of course maybe I haven't tried "yours". Placebos don't seem to work for me, wish they did.

Hint: Smaller posts, raise your count.

 

[magnetic]

Again, you completely fail to understand what you are talking about. MRIs do not do anything to the iron in your blood. We know that magnets don't repel or attract the iron in your blood because, among other things, if they did you would die when you had an MRI. This is extremely basic stuff, and you really should try to learn a lot more about it before trying to defend your claims. Hopefully, when you have learned some more you won't make those claims any longer.
Hello Cuddles,
Correction my "betters" not peers, happy?
You are missing my point:
Read my lips, I have never said and DO NOT claim that MRI's have an affect on blood but MRI's are used as evidence by some scientific researchers and authors to show that magnetic therapy could not possibly work.
It is scientific fact that there are more electrons than protons within the iron atom in blood!
It was an author that said blood would "in fact" repel within a magnetic field NOt me!
The BMJ NOT me published a "magnetic bracelet was used" it was not a bracelet that was used! To clarify: a bracelet as a piece of jewellery worn around the wrist or ankle and can either be a series of links joined together or a bangle which is solid and can be open ended (torque). Both are jewellery and 99% on the market contain small multiple magnets.
The item used in the trial was neither. It was a wrist strap, not unlike a watch with a much larger, single magnet. To use the term bracelet was missleading and that is the point I was making, you should read what I say more closely.

1) Fingold and Flamm, scientific researchers, use the MRI as evidence against the therapy and say that "fact: there is nothing in the human body that is affected by a magnetic field" and yet in these replies you can read time and time again that statement is wrong.
2) Rose Shapiro,author and sceptic as evidence claims the blood would "in fact" repels within a magnetic field!!!!
3) The BMJ is not clear on what was used in the trail and misslead the public into potentially purchasing something completely different which are unlikely to create any benefit to the wearer which ultimately only fuels the sceptic in us all.

If the sceptics can't agree on the argument against and cannot get their own facts right, then it's not me that ought to learn more about what they are talking about.
In many ways you are doing just the same because if some just happened on your reply without going back to my original statement they too would be misslead into thinking I said those things when we both know I did no such thing.
I hope this clarifies.
Ray

 

[Ladewig]

Two quick questions:

Will you respond to all the other recent posts?

Do you use the magnets yourself?

 

[magnetic]

Hi Lanzy,
Your dog looks just like one of mine, great breed. Parson?
I know what you mean about number of words, it is a fault of mine trying to prove a point as I am aware of all the arguments against so I try to answer them all, before I get the question.
What did you use and what is the problem, if you don't mind me asking that is?
Ray

 

[Madalch]

Read my lips, I have never said and DO NOT claim that MRI's have an affect on blood but MRI's are used as evidence by some scientific researchers and authors to show that magnetic therapy could not possibly work.

You claim that your little magnets have an effect on blood; it has been shown that much more powerful magnets do not have suh an effect.

It is scientific fact that there are more electrons than protons within the iron atom in blood!

It is not a fact of any sort. It is wrong. The iron in hemoglobin is in the +2 oxidation state; so it has two fewer electrons than protons. Those electrons are part of the rest of the hemoglobin molecule, which has no overall charge. Thus the hemoglobin molecule (including the iron) has exactly as many electrons as protons.

It was an author that said blood would "in fact" repel within a magnetic field NOt me!

Yes, but to have a measurable effect, you'd need an extremely powerful magnet- not the little ones found in magnetic bracelets or talismans.

 

[Locknar]

You claim that your little magnets have an effect on blood; it has been shown that much more powerful magnets do not have suh an effect.

Gotta wonder...let's enter Fantasy Land for a moment and say this is true; magnets (such as those that Magnetic sells) have an effect on blood.

What happens if you wear these magnets to long, blood clots?

What about when they are removed after prolonged wear...all that "bad stuff" that has bunched up around the magnet is suddenly released back into circulation - yikes!

Now leaving Fantasy Land…please remain seated until we’ve come to a full stop, luggage in the overheard compartments may have shifted during our trip so use caution when opening.

 

[Ladewig]

Gotta wonder...let's enter Fantasy Land for a moment and say this is true; magnets (such as those that Magnetic sells) have an effect on blood.

What happens if you wear these magnets too long, blood clots?

No. In the opening post, Magnetic said that powerful magnets repel blood:

Firstly they accept that "moving magnetic fields can create electrical fields that can have some effect on living tissue" what if an atomic particle moves through a magnetic field at speed? the Hall Effect tells us that this will generate an electical field which in turn increases energy. The iron in blood is paramagnetic even if only slightly and if you place blood that is clustered together onto a powerful magnet they will separate and I have seen this done within 5 minutes.
The proton has a positive potential and the electron negative, in blood the iron atom has more electrons that protons which means they are meant to and will stay separated in ideal conditions the same as two like pole magnets.

 

[magnetic]

Hi Madalch,
"Magnets sold for these purposes are relatively weak, and their magnetic fields do not extend significantly through the skin; even if there was a plausible therapeutic effect of such magnets, they wouldn’t affect muscles or joints"! end quote and often quoted.
True, most magnets sold are very weak and the above quote has been used before but the magnets I use will put a magnetic field through and out the other side of my wrist thus exposing fast flowing arterial blood and the iron within to a "strong" magnetic field. I accept that this field is getting progressively weaker and it one of the reasons why I believe that soem products work better than others and why some trials are not proven.
Your thoughts? and thanks for the lack of sarcasm.
ray

 

[magnetic]

this was done in the BMJ published trial.

 

[Locknar]

No. In the opening post, Magnetic said that powerful magnets repel blood:

Oh, silly me *lol*

To be honest, I'm still stuck on the "I ethically scam people" (my paraphrase) aspect of the OP.

 

[wahrheit]

Hmmm. Perhaps we repelled him in some way. We were, after all, poles apart.

I don't think this domain suited him. We were all orientated the wrong way.

Are you the guys writing those pun threads at reddit?

Your thoughts?

I think that selling magnets to people with health issues is a scam, no matter if you do it knowingly or out of ignorance.

and thanks for the lack of sarcasm.

You're welcome.

 

[magnetic]

Which, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, is not what anyone is doing. We don't really care that it can't possibly work, although that is in fact true. What we are actually telling you is that it doesn't work. You yourself appear to agree with this, since you happily state that you make no claims and have never done any tests.

Read my lips; "I cannot legally make any claims" so I don't.
It is not a FACT that it doesn't work it just hasn't been proven either way. If it can be proven then I would give up. Tell my dog that it doesn't work and that it is all in the mind and the thousands of other animals that use them, or is it the owners seeing what they want to believe?
The lack of a clinical trial is not proof against effacy! This hardle me admitting that I am wrong about what I believe.
It seems that the biggest hangup is that people are making money out of helping people help themselves. If putting a relatively inexpensive (in my case) product on the wrist makes a difference to someones bad back then why should you worry!
I too agree that there is plenty of rubbish said and sold which is why I try to stay away from all the claims made and let a person decide for themselves.



As far as I can tell your point is that you know you are scamming people and you don't care.
As far as you can tell???? I was talking about the nit picking on my use of paragraphs and grammar, read my last line again and then say sorry! I am not scamming people, I do what I do because it makes a difference and as long as I get feedback that it has made a difference to someones life I will continue to do so. Only my concience will prevail if it absoultely proven that it cannot possibly work, then I will give up. Until then just as it is difficult to prove that it does work I will carry on. Do not judge me against your own values or of those who have upset you in the past. I had hoped at least that I had put across my integrity even if some or all of you think I am misguided that does make me immoral in what I do.
I read once: "A person who has passion that overides logic can be trusted on his principles. Only a fool values logic above feeling"

 

[magnetic]

Blood is moving so why should it "clot" within a magnetic field and why would "stuff" be held with a magnetic field?
Another example of a bad example of why it can't work!

 

[wahrheit]

magnetic, if you would like to quote other posts and write a reply, please use the Quote button at the bottom right of the post you want to answer. Makes reading those replies a lot easier.

 

[Madalch]

True, most magnets sold are very weak and the above quote has been used before but the magnets I use will put a magnetic field through and out the other side of my wrist thus exposing fast flowing arterial blood and the iron within to a "strong" magnetic field. I accept that this field is getting progressively weaker and it one of the reasons why I believe that soem products work better than others and why some trials are not proven. Your thoughts?

Your magnet my be strong enough to be detected a few centimetres away, but it is still not strong enough to have much effect on a diamagnetic substance.

Besides, you're missing the point I made about hemoglobin being diamagnetic, just like nearly every other molecule in the human body. Water molecules are also diamagnetic, sodium ions and chloride ions are diamagnetic, lipids are diamagnetic, etc. If you have a strong enough magnetic field to repel hemoglobin, you'll also be repelling the water and everything else in the red blood cells, the platelets, the plasma, and all the other components of blood and all the surrounding cells and tissue. That's why the whole frog levitates, rather than turning red on one side.

 

[magnetic]

with regard to the amount electrons in the iron atom in blood I have read and been told the opposite so why are they wrong? (a research biologist) and I have never been corrected at any time on this when discussing face to face with both a Physicist and haematologists? I will do more research on this.
With regard to "spellchecker". I have already admitted in taking too long to make my point so checking my spelling or grammer when you clearly understand what I am saying is a bit picky and you clearly have more time on your hands than me!

 

[magnetic]

magnetic, if you would like to quote other posts and write a reply, please use the Quote button at the bottom right of the post you want to answer. Makes reading those replies a lot easier.

Thanks for that.
I am new to this and I did wonder how it was done.

 

[Crundy]

Hmm, if you want to "ethically" sell these items, you should have a disclaimer that says "These products have not been scientifically proven to work, but a lot of people find they help them, and we are therefore selling for those people who believe they work". That's ethical selling. If I see a joke voodoo doll in my local store I'm sure it would have a disclaimer saying it was a novelty item and would not actually harm anyone.