Split thread: I sell magnetic therapy products

[athon]

Bravo!

Hopefully, in your new job, you can start to redress the balance.

Mate, you and I both. I'm working on ways to use this position to help primary teachers come up with ways to better equip kids to think scientifically, rather than to see science as a box of trivia to learn and regurgitate.

I have a pet theory that it's not so much a deficit in science teaching as a deficit in teaching as a whole. We're giving kids less time in schools than we used to, yet there's far more to learn, so lots gets missed out and the people setting the curriculum are usually the wrong people doing it for the wrong reasons. Individual teachers may be very good, but the system as a whole is failing. I think it's more or less a worldwide issue, with everyone being relatively unhappy with the quality [or lack thereof] in education.

Diversification of content has been an acknowledged problem, however teachers have always fallen back on pushing a curriculum rather than teaching skills within a context. It's a difficult concept to shift away from; many teachers continue to teach the way they were taught while struggling to implement the new programs and units. Often being incompatible, especially in a 'one-size-fits-all' system, the teachers burn out feeling they have to teach too much, the kids don't learn skills as effectively as they could, and nobody wins.

Worse yet, what is described as a 'success' is the sort of silliness as we see here - somebody who can regurgitate a lot of facts but have no idea where they fit into the scheme of things.

Sorry for the slight derail.

Athon

 

[Akhenaten]

Smart move, I'm going to get into it myself.

Given that we have magnets which help physically, I'm about to start marketing memory aid magnets, which will be worn in a headband.

$39-95 each is a snip, I reckon. How many Gauss do you rckon I should aim for?

The actual number is unimportant. Just make sure that they're Quantum Gauss™

 

[The Atheist]

Mate, you and I both. I'm working on ways to use this position to help primary teachers come up with ways to better equip kids to think scientifically, rather than to see science as a box of trivia to learn and regurgitate.

I'm hoping I can push the kids' primary into it this year - their science programs have been simply awful - teachers had completely ignored little things like the McNaught Comet, which might well be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

Back on track, we'll talk about that elsewhere.

The actual number is unimportant. Just make sure that they're Quantum Gauss™

Great thinking!

The sad thing with magnets is that the people selling them have gotten really cunning, sticking them in pure wool underlays*. I spoke to our Ministry of Health a while back and they're well aware that it's all codswallop. As the doc I spoke to said - if you give an old bugger a nice, new woollen under blanket, he's going to be more comfortable and think the magnets are doing it. We are utterly overwhelmed by high-profile former sportspeople advertising this junk.

*Another reason I can't really be bothered going after them is that at least they are providing something for the money, the punters are just paying $300 for a $200 underlay with 10c worth of fridge magnets stuck on it.

 

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

Smart move, I'm going to get into it myself.

Given that we have magnets which help physically, I'm about to start marketing memory aid magnets, which will be worn in a headband.

$39-95 each is a snip, I reckon. How many Gauss do you rckon I should aim for?

What? You've forgotten already?

How many Gauss have you got? - sorry - I should have written "Quantum".

 

[JJM]

In his excellent book, Voodoo Science, Bob Park writes about this.
http://www.amazon.com/Voodoo-Scienc...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201613512&sr=8-1
He points out that most magnets sold for "therapy" are too weak to penetrate the skin. Second, that increased blood flow is indicated by reddening of the skin (erythema). You don't see that.

I have spent a lot of time using NMRs (that technology led to MRI), which have powerful magnets. The magnets are strong-enough to pull metal forceps out of one's shirt-pocket from a couple feet away. Yet, even touching the body of the instrument does not induce erythema.

 

[LostAngeles]

I know something of this because I get curious about what the hell is being done to me at the doctor's. Let's see if I can explain this back.

An MRI's field basically causes your water molecules to line up along the lines of magnetic force. Application of a particular radio frequency will cause some of them move out of this line and the resulting energy given off is read by the scanner. I think that a Fourier transform is then used to generate the image.

tl;dr: The magnetic field simply sets things up and the radio waves knocks them about, math makes a picture.

 

[The Atheist]

... MRI's ...

are the death in attacking magnetic therapy products.

Everywhere I've checked, MRI usage instructions prevent pregnant women from using parts of the equipment in the third trimester.

As long as that exists, you have Buckley's of successfully attacking magnetic products.

Whatever question you ask, whatever ploy you use, they just point that out and walk away. The point is completely irrelevant, of course, but imagine how hard it would be to attack psychics if medical science disallowed pregnant women from working in haunted houses. Magnetism and the human body is legislatable..

The end.

Just watch out for the double whammy when I start selling my headbands! I'm going to have the therapeutic properties of magnetism on the brain highlighted alongside the IMPORTANT NOTICE ABOUT EMFs, only to sell one of these personal de-EMF-ers at the same time!

 

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

are the death in attacking magnetic therapy products.

Everywhere I've checked, MRI usage instructions prevent pregnant women from using parts of the equipment in the third trimester.

As long as that exists, you have Buckley's of successfully attacking magnetic products.

Whatever question you ask, whatever ploy you use, they just point that out and walk away. The point is completely irrelevant, of course, but imagine how hard it would be to attack psychics if medical science disallowed pregnant women from working in haunted houses. Magnetism and the human body is legislatable..

The end.

Just watch out for the double whammy when I start selling my headbands! I'm going to have the therapeutic properties of magnetism on the brain highlighted alongside the IMPORTANT NOTICE ABOUT EMFs, only to sell one of these personal de-EMF-ers at the same time!

Are you looking for a European agent, BTW?

 

[The Atheist]

Are you looking for a European agent, BTW?

Hell yes, especially in Germany.

As the Raymaster link shows, there's no old crap that Euros won't buy.

I reckon this is a sure-fire winner. Honestly, I've got my Chinese bloke getting some costs done for me.

 

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

Ok -you got it!

I'lll wait for the "evidence"...

You'll need a US agent as well - they're even worse than Europeans, if the Interweb is anything to go by.

 

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

Perhaps that ought to read "better than Europeans", under the circumstances

 

[magnetic]

Wow and ouch! Too many questions.
Firstly a lot of you have picked up on things I never said and/didn't meant to imply and my grammar, sorry I am not going to spend time on spell checker.
I was not knocking the BMJ! Some of you may have bought a magnetic therapy product or know someone who has, based on the information published in the BMJ. I set out to inform that the information regarding the type of magnets used in the trial is not the same strength as used in most cheap jewellery. By saying that I attempt to point out that even a respected publication can mislead.
MRI??? I never said that an MRI was a "treatment" just that MRI was used as evidence to disprove that a magnetic field had no affect (happy now with my grammar) on the human body. If the body contains water and water is stimulated by an MRI then there IS something in the human body that is affected by a magnetic field. I was just making a point about misleading claims.
Other comments to answer: Quantum magnets. I never said that. The Quantum is the name of a product.
If you think that putting a magnet on your head will improve memory then good luck to you.
Re the reaction to ease pain by rubbing. Compression?? bang your elbow then compress it and see if it feels better. Again I was just making an example of an everyday reaction that we all do even to our children. I wasn't being specific to a particular type of injury.
If a magnet is placed on the skin why should it cause vascular dilation, or Erythema?
Again this is another claim made by sceptics that magnets can increase blood flow. If you have healthy blood flow to the surface of the skin then placing a magnet in that area will not increase which is why I use "improve" as in: if it is needed.
We can list all the things that will improve our health I just mentioned blood flow as one example because I believe that it is a main factor. No oxygen we die, blood carries oxygen, blood contains iron.
Oxygen therapy is recognised as heplful is speeding up the repair of injuries in sportsmen and women.
No I can't prove it! I neither have the facilities nor the funds required to conduct a clinical trial but all the trails that have been conducted have shown that a benefit was seen, no matter how flawed the trail was.
Ethics. Again I suppose I shouldn't have used that particular word "sell". I beleive in what I do because every day I get calls and/or letters from people who tell me that it has made a difference to someones life. Are they lying to me? are they fooling themselves? because I would like to know what physical change made it happen or was it in the mind? because I don't offer incentives for comments or feed back so something has happened.
I am not a scientist but I have reasearched as best I can, which is better than most, the information which have been published by my peers. I have tried to explain what I believe to be the reaction based on what I have read and seen e.g. Rouleau (not a clot) formation separate within 5 minutes after exposed to one of my products. Did I imagine this? Did the guy who did the experiment lie to me or did he not show astonishment at the result?
I explain what I beleive to be the reason and I have had more than one comment that "it makes sense" and this again from my peers perhaps I am not good at explaining in text as I am verbally???
Once I have laid out my stall, so to speak it is now up to whoever wants to try, nobody is forced to buy, but having done so I will back you up 100% and if it fails to have an affect then I offer a refund. I do not make any medical claims but the results I have witnessed and continue to witness re-affirm my belief that something is happening and if there is more to it than I am able to explain then so what!
I am happy helping people with their problems and the main point I set out to make is that some magnetic therpay products can work better than others due to the difference in strength not purely on the fact that it is magnetic.
Tell the young 12 year old with muscular dystrophy who after 5 hours could hold a tooth brush and turn the tap for the first time in his life! This is NOT a medical claim but a call I got from a tearful mother who was so greatfull that she had to let me know and who's surgeon on seeing the improvement cancelled a series of injections and postponed corrective surgery "just to see how things are in couple of months". I do not make this up but something happened and if putting a magnet on a childs wrist can make that child have more mobility in his hands and fingers then what possible harm can it do? and knowing "how" won't make it work any better.
I am ethical because I do what I do to make a difference, any financial reward comes from the results, otherwise I wouldn't do what I do.
Trying to score points on bad grammer or misquoting me or agreeing with me then not!
E.g. There are more electrons than protons with the iron atom is a fact! as to what percentage? why does that matter?
A good example is a recent comment by Rose Shapiro an author of a soon to be published book on Quack medicine is Quote: "Those "medical researchers" are wrong. The iron in blood is repelled not attracted by magnets" end quote (my inverted comma's)
She then goes on to quote the affects of an MRI scan as evidence. Whats that all about? One minute there is no reaction on blood by a magnetic field then blood can be polarizes into be repelled by a particular pole of a magnet?
I have gone on long enough but one question, how many of you out there have tried it and what was it?
Ray

 

[Pup]

If a magnet is placed on the skin why should it cause vascular dilation, or Erythema?
Again this is another claim made by sceptics that magnets can increase blood flow. If you have healthy blood flow to the surface of the skin then placing a magnet in that area will not increase which is why I use "improve" as in: if it is needed.

Well, there's a testable claim, if you can predict in advance when an area needs increased blood flow and when it's healthy.

Or is the need defined by what the magnet supposedly does? In other words, if you place a magnet on an area and blood flow increases, it must have been needed, and if it doesn't then it wasn't needed?

 

[Ladewig]

No I can't prove it! I neither have the facilities nor the funds required to conduct a clinical trial but all the trails that have been conducted have shown that a benefit was seen, no matter how flawed the trail was.

Here we have the root of the problem. Your observation is akin to saying my favorite sports team must be good - they have won every game no matter how much they cheated. To determine effectiveness, one must look only at trials that have no flaws. For instance, one possible flaw is to use refrigerator magnets instead of powerful magnets. If a trial did that and showed positive results then it is very likely that people are reporting improvement despite there being no effective means of healing.

Ethics. Again I suppose I shouldn't have used that particular word "sell". I beleive in what I do because every day I get calls and/or letters from people who tell me that it has made a difference to someones life. Are they lying to me?

no

are they fooling themselves?

Yes! Eighty years ago, people sold radioactive water as a cure-all. There were hundreds and thousands of people who swore to its effectiveness. Today there are millions of people who write letters extoling the value of homeopathic remedies, but these people are fooling themselves as well. Why do you find it hard to believe that people fool themselves when it comes to alternative medicine?

I am not a scientist but I have reasearched as best I can, which is better than most, the information which have been published by my peers.

But if your peers have no idea how to construct an effective double blind test, then all their published research is flawed to the point of being inconclusive.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

Ray,

Hypothetical question. If you were shown that your product was working entirely due to the placebo effect and had nothing to do with magnetism, would you continue selling it?

If so, would you also continue making the same claims about it that you now make?

 

[Cuddles]

published by my peers.

Who exactly are your peers? Medical researchers should be published in medical journals, yet you criticise the BMJ and admit that you are not any kind of scientist or researcher. "Peers" would imply that they are your equals. Why should we trust people who don't actually know what they are talking about?

E.g. There are more electrons than protons with the iron atom is a fact! as to what percentage? why does that matter?

No there aren't. If you can't get something as basic as this right, why should we believe anything else you say?

A good example is a recent comment by Rose Shapiro an author of a soon to be published book on Quack medicine is Quote: "Those "medical researchers" are wrong. The iron in blood is repelled not attracted by magnets" end quote (my inverted comma's)
She then goes on to quote the affects of an MRI scan as evidence. Whats that all about? One minute there is no reaction on blood by a magnetic field then blood can be polarizes into be repelled by a particular pole of a magnet?

Again, you completely fail to understand what you are talking about. MRIs do not do anything to the iron in your blood. We know that magnets don't repel or attract the iron in your blood because, among other things, if they did you would die when you had an MRI. This is extremely basic stuff, and you really should try to learn a lot more about it before trying to defend your claims. Hopefully, when you have learned some more you won't make those claims any longer.

 

[magnetic]

No wonder there are plenty of sceptics about when you see sites like Chiu!!! I have never heard of or seen this site. Is this guy serious and I bet he's in the US?
This is the whole point I am trying to make.
There have been double blind clinical trials using magnets and they were all shown to help relieve pain of one sort or another the only problem was not whether it worked, it as whether the wearer new it was a magnet.
My other point has been lost by the shear volume of negativity and that is clearly displayed in these answers and that is picking on the weakest point of an argument or as we have seen in Chiu's website, ie riduculous claims is not proof against that argument.
I have noticed that no one has agreed with me that mentioning an MRI scanner as evidence that magnetic fields cannot possible have an affect on the human body is false.
Has anyone read the BMJ article? DId you know that the magnet used in the trial was not a bracelet? Did you now that the newsaper article and images were not the products used in the trial? Imagine someone who read that article and then nipped down to Poundland and bought a bracelet and it didn't work, suprise suprise, IT IS NOT THE SAME MAGNET!!! These are points I was trying to make, they are misleading and these are the ONLY one's I know about. Judging the response I have had you must have read a lot more and if you have then no wonder there are so many sceptics
The MRI is a ploy. Most people reading articles in the newspaper that defunk a therapy will believe in most of what is being written especially when it gets technical or published by a respectable journal so they are as guilty as the Chiu's of this world.
How many of you believe that mobile phones are 100% safe. If you are unsure you will still use it because they are convenient and I bet you will argue that they are safe because there are still doubts. "Doubts, unsure, more research needed, there is some evidence, children are more in danger". I bet your child has a mobile, but instead of controlling their usage as there is no clear evidence! carry on.
I am only making a point here so don't ask me for evidence on mobile phone radiation.
I am with you all on most of the claims made but those of you that heve seen my site will see I make no claims!
If a magnet is going to work it needs to be strong enough, most products I have seen over the years and still do wouldn't pick up a paper clip or stick to the fridge. I offer a much stronger magnet in a product that is versatile and comfortable and cheaper than any of my competitors and I am not involved in Multi-Level Marketing.
There is no shame in agreeing in some of what I have said so stay sceptical and healthy.
Ray

 

[drapier]

Why is the inability to write in paragraphs such a strong indicator of a belief in the pseudo-scientific or the paranormal?

 

[JoeEllison]

Smart move, I'm going to get into it myself.

Given that we have magnets which help physically, I'm about to start marketing memory aid magnets, which will be worn in a headband.

$39-95 each is a snip, I reckon. How many Gauss do you rckon I should aim for?

Call then "homeopathic" and they don't actually have to be even slightly magnetic, do they? You can just put a magnet in the box with the headbands, shake it a few times, and they should all be equally effective.

 

[Spiro]

Ray,

Mobile phones put out electroMAGNETIC radiation. Why should that make them dangerous? According to you people should benefit from getting a shot of magnetism to the body.