Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

[FireGarden]

It could be called Israepal or Palrael.

Palesrael sounds better. Or Israstine.
And you're right: they cannot wish each other away.

 

[yairhol]

My solution? The one-state solution

Neither of the two sides wants this solution. Israel doesn't want the Palestinians as its citizens because of many reasons. The Palestinians don't want that because they say Israel stole the land from them and they want it ALL back plus they want their laws to be Islamic and not 'western'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binational_solution

Islamist opponents of a binational solution argue that it would run contrary to the goal of an Islamic State ruled under Islamic or sharia law. Arabist opponents criticize it for going against the idea of Pan-Arabism.

Demographic trends show the likelihood of a near-term majority Arab population west of the Jordan river (including the land within the internationally recognized borders of the state of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza.) The probability that Palestinians would constitute an electoral majority in a binational state is seen by some Palestinians as a way to redress their economic and military disadvantage vis-a-via the Jewish population which today dominates the Israeli electorate. It is feared by many Israeli Jews for the same reason.

Many Israeli Jewish opponents of a binational solution argue that it would run contrary to the goal of a safe Jewish homeland. They cite both the pre-1948 history of anti-Jewish riots,and the present violence of the two intifadas, which many Israeli Jews attribute to anti-Semitic sentiments among Palestinians.

Of course some may be in favor of the one state solution but that is not practical.
Now what? We need more suggestions. Quickly.

Regards,
Yair

 

[Molinaro]

Why is it Israel's responsibility to care for the Palestinians? I don't understand why people here seem to be implying that the refusal to help is some kind of shirking of responsiblity.

Is not the Palestinian government supposed to be responsible for that?

 

[WildCat]

Is not the Palestinian government supposed to be responsible for that?

You gotta admit, Hamas is doing one hell of a balancing act waging war against Israel while simultaneously receiving aid from them.

 

[Nogbad]

Why is it Israel's responsibility to care for the Palestinians? I don't understand why people here seem to be implying that the refusal to help is some kind of shirking of responsiblity.

Is not the Palestinian government supposed to be responsible for that?

Palestine is not yet a state. Tax revenue etc. is carried out through Israeli Government offices and this is currently being withheld from the Hamas side of the Palestinian Authority (with what legality it is not clear). Gaza could import the fuel it needs if Israel allowed it to control its own borders and ports. It is not a question of asking for help it is just as things stand Israel is the only conduit the Palestinians are allowed.

If there is no intention of ever actually implementing a two state solution - and there doesn't seem to be - then a one state solution is the only answer. If neither side really want that then perhaps its impending imposition by the peace brokers might concentrate minds on both sides.

 

[FireGarden]

Neither of the two sides wants this solution.

On a majority basis, so far, you are right. But things change. Which is why Olmert has said: Two-state solution, or Israel is done for
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/929439.html

"If the day comes when the two-state solution collapses, and we face a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights (also for the Palestinians in the territories), then, as soon as that happens, the State of Israel is finished," Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told Haaretz Wednesday, the day the Annapolis conference ended in an agreement to try to reach a Mideast peace settlement by the end of 2008.

"The Jewish organizations, which were our power base in America, will be the first to come out against us," Olmert said, "because they will say they cannot support a state that does not support democracy and equal voting rights for all its residents."

Olmert pointed out that he had said similar things in an interview he gave four years ago, when he was deputy prime minister under Ariel Sharon, in which he revealed for the first time his proposal for a withdrawal from most of the occupied territories.

Of course some may be in favor of the one state solution but that is not practical.
Now what? We need more suggestions. Quickly.

Regards,
Yair

And until there's a suggestion you like, options which have been tried and have failed will be tried again. Is that it? And you certainly do need a quick solution, because every bomb Israel drops puts the two-state solution further out of reach.


I take it you read about Ahmed Awad in my earlier post. You seemed interested in non-violent resistance. Enough bridges like the ones he built, and the people WILL be calling for a one-state solution.

 

[FireGarden]

Why is it Israel's responsibility to care for the Palestinians?

If you build a prison then the prisoners are your responsibility. But good news today! There's been a jailbreak. Plenty of happy Palestinian faces on the news, especially from those reunited with family.

Egypt is going to find it politically difficult to rebuild the 'border fence'. (I hope). So far, they've said they won't force the Gazans back:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7205668.stm

 

[OneShotKi11]

This only happened because the Palestinians just broke down the wall that was baracading them out!
Not because of the kindness of his heart.

Personally im glad they did it.

 

[Molinaro]

If you build a prison then the prisoners are your responsibility. But good news today! There's been a jailbreak. Plenty of happy Palestinian faces on the news, especially from those reunited with family.

Egypt is going to find it politically difficult to rebuild the 'border fence'. (I hope). So far, they've said they won't force the Gazans back:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7205668.stm

I'm confused. Does Egypt decide who crosses their border or not?

Here it looks like yes, as I would expect, it's up to Egypt.

Yet, others are saying only Israel is allowed to ship goods.



The articles I read today only seems to mention Israel's concern is about goods that would be used to aid terrorism.

Is anyone here saying that if Egypt offered to truck the 500k litres of fuel a day needed to run the Gaza power plant that Israel wouldn't let them?

Is there actualy evidence of Israel blocking aid that is securely delivered?

 

[Steve H]

...If there is no intention of ever actually implementing a two state solution - and there doesn't seem to be - then a one state solution is the only answer. If neither side really want that then perhaps its impending imposition by the peace brokers might concentrate minds on both sides.

As cool as a "one-state" solution sounds it'll never happen and goes against what Israelis and Palestinians want. The Palestinians don't want to be assimilated into Israel or join some kind of federation where Israel and Palestine are one big entity. They want their own digs and I'm sure Israel is in no hurry to shuck their identity as a Jewish state.

As I said before, I believe the best short term solution to Gazan rocket fire (and Israeli Gaza incursions) is a buffer-zone policed by a third-party or parties. It could work, but would Israel allow it? Would Hamas? Would both sides refrain from violating it? Those are the million dollar questions.

 

[Steve H]

I'm confused. Does Egypt decide who crosses their border or not?

Here it looks like yes, as I would expect, it's up to Egypt.

Yet, others are saying only Israel is allowed to ship goods.



The articles I read today only seems to mention Israel's concern is about goods that would be used to aid terrorism.

Is anyone here saying that if Egypt offered to truck the 500k litres of fuel a day needed to run the Gaza power plant that Israel wouldn't let them?

Is there actualy evidence of Israel blocking aid that is securely delivered?

The Egyptians have control of their own border with Gaza but have been going along with keeping the border closed for two reasons: they don't like Hamas that much and the US (a staunch Israeli ally) wants them to. Prior to today's "jailbreak" Egypt hinted at opening their end if the Israeli embargo went on indefinitely... I guess that's kinda moot now.

 

[Solitaire]

Now what?

Isn't it obvious?

(1) Israel builds a double wall between Gaza and Egypt.
(2) Hamas overthrows Abbas in the West Bank.

 

[yairhol]

I'm confused. Does Egypt decide who crosses their border or not?

Here it looks like yes, as I would expect, it's up to Egypt.

Yet, others are saying only Israel is allowed to ship goods.

Excellent observation. You see, no Arab state wants a terrorist organization in their own country. Israel doesn't want them either.
There's a lot of two-faced acts going on from the Arab countries' sides towards the Palestinians.

Regards
Yair

 

[a_unique_person]

I'm confused. Does Egypt decide who crosses their border or not?

Here it looks like yes, as I would expect, it's up to Egypt.

Yet, others are saying only Israel is allowed to ship goods.



The articles I read today only seems to mention Israel's concern is about goods that would be used to aid terrorism.

Is anyone here saying that if Egypt offered to truck the 500k litres of fuel a day needed to run the Gaza power plant that Israel wouldn't let them?

Is there actualy evidence of Israel blocking aid that is securely delivered?

The West Bank and Gaza are still effectively under the control of Israel, not Egypt.

 

[yairhol]

The Unjust Israeli Occupation.

 

[The Fool]

The Unjust Israeli Occupation.

[qimg]http://photos22.flickr.com/31078939_2d252da838_o.gif[/qimg]

This is an ancient crusty old line. Jerusalem is such a tiny place too I can't see how Israel can complain too much if they don't get it..??? yea, whatever. Something about a place being your home kind of makes you attached to it and want to be able to determine who controls it.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

Not if that land is being used to wage war.

Unfortunately Israel is breaking the Geneva Conventions as an occupying force.

Which Palestinian group(s) is fighting for this freedom? Please provide evidence of your claims.

You know Israel is preventing Palestinian students from attending their courses outside Palestine. See http://www.gisha.org/index.php?intLanguage=2&intItemId=930&intSiteSN=113 and http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=isrlpa

Which Palestinian group(s) is fighting for this freedom? Please provide evidence of your claims.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2243085,00.html. Does yur version of Google not provide you with any information about Israel's activities?

They'll get "their own borders" when they want to behave like a responsible state.

And the same applies to Israel no doubt. In the meantime Israel carries on stealing Palestinian land in contravention of international law.

Why are there checkpoints again?

Are you saying that israel is right to allow women to die in childbirth at its checkpoints. What contempt for human life you appear to have.

Sure, if they'll agree to recognize Israel's right to exist and to stop terrorist attacks aimed solely at civilians.

You do realise that collective punishment is a crime against humanity don't you?

Which Palestinian group(s) is fighting for this freedom? Please provide evidence of your claims.

http://www.imemc.org/article/52392 Wow. You really cannot use Google can you. Israel is rightly asking for rocket attacks to stop. Palestinians and the world are requesting that Israel stop breaking international law but your posts merely demonstrate an indifference to decent norms.

Which Palestinian group(s) is fighting for this freedom? Please provide evidence of your claims.

The freedom from apartheid activities. Hmm. Who would want to be free from that type of behaviour. Let me see. http://www.stopthewall.org/

Which Palestinian group(s) is fighting for this freedom? Please provide evidence of your claims.

The freedom to be treated as human beings. Hmm. Who could possibly want that. See http://www.stopthewall.org/

The Palestinians value none of those things, that's why they elected a terrorist group as their leaders who openly advocate the destruction of a sovereign nation and the installation of a totalitarian Islamic regime more typical of the 7th Century than the 21st.[/QUOTE]

What utter contempt for human life. Evidence for your claims please.


Israel elected terrorists as leaders. By collectively punishing an entire group of people and stealing land Israel is violating international law and is engaged in terrorising innocent women and children, as are Hamas.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

A blogpost? Come on, you must have better sources. A newspaper article from a reputable newspaper. Or better still, a report from the UN or from a human rights organization like Amnesty or B'tselem.

Since you have proven yourself to be a repeat liar (see my post for a summary), I'm not going to trust a word of what you're saying and I advise others to do so too.

You are right. Webfusion's MO is well known. The contempt for the law that he espouses is alarming.

 

[mrbaracuda]

In the meantime Israel carries on stealing Palestinian land in contravention of international law.

I think I need to start talking to Poland about the Korridor.

Are you saying that israel is right to allow women to die in childbirth at its checkpoints.

You gotta be careful at those checkpoints though, I tell ya!


Propaganda, I'm sure.

 

[ddt]

You gotta be careful at those checkpoints though, I tell ya!

Propaganda, I'm sure.

Yeah, the case of Islam Jibril, 27-03-2002. You know what's funny about it? It's the only case that's documented of an ambulance carrying explosives.

I'll cite from a March 2002 B'Tselem report, "Wounded in the Field" (you can find it on the btselem.org website):

The state’s fi rst contention is that the Palestinians use ambulances for purposes unrelated to providing medical treatment. “More than once, the Palestinian side has used ambulances to transport armed combatants from place to place, smuggle armed wanted persons, smuggle weapons, and the like.” 32 This contention has been raised many times since the current intifada began, primarily during the first two weeks of March.
[...]
Despite repeated requests by human rights organizations and others, the IDF Spokesperson has never provided any evidence supporting his claims that the Palestinians make “cynical use” of ambulances. Col. Kochavi stated that some of the cases are documented, but the documentation has never been disclosed.

So, prior to this incident there was a lot of allegations by the IDF, but nothing proven.

No wonder that some, including the Palestinian Red Crescent raise doubt about this one:

The Palestine Red Crescent Society’s own investigation leads us to believe that this was a staged event in which the Israeli army and other security apparatus were involved in to taint the Red Crescent ambulances. We had debriefed the passengers of the vehicle, examined the timeline and other eyewitness accounts, and are amazed at how the Israeli army managed within the span of 20 minutes to invite the media and press corps in the area before even confirming the presence of the explosive device.

In any case, you can find later B'Tselem reports at their site; the above case remains the only incident the Israeli government can prove about smuggling explosives with ambulances. So the use of plural in discussing such matters is unwarranted.

On the other side, there are numerous cases documented of IDF personnel shooting at ambulances, and even hijacking them for transporting soldiers.