Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

[Steve H]

Neither side is wearing the white hats over there and the back-and-forth in this thread is a microcosm of that conflict - both sides are right in some respects and wrong in others. Regarding Gaza, the Israeli blockade impacts non-combatants and, as far as stopping the militant shelling, it won't. Instead, it's making Israel look bad, as it should, and even has Egypt talking about reopening the Rafah border crossing on their end. Having said that, I think it's hypocritical to bemoan starving Gazans or invoke international law due to Israeli actions while Israeli civilians should just "get used to it" when shelled. When is it OK for either side to target non-combatants for any reason?

 

[gtc]

When is it OK for either side to target non-combatants for any reason?

The Israelis seem to know what they are doing. They cut off supplies of things like petrol which aren't entirely neccesary (reminds me of the 1970s) and of essentials for just long enough to start to worry people.

Then they ease the restrictions so they can talk tough but not actually cause too much suffering (i.e. enough suffering to get anyone to do anything about it).

That approach can be seen here:

We will not allow a humanitarian crisis in Gaza," Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told a Kadima Knesset faction meeting Monday. "But we have no intention of making their lives easier... as far as I am concerned, every resident of Gaza can walk because they have no gasoline for their vehicles, because they have a murderous regime that doesn't let people in southern Israel live in peace," he warned

This tactic will continue to be used, because it works:

"The message we wanted to send was received in Gaza. On Thursday some 40 rockets were fired against Israel from the Strip, and today... just a few. The military and economic pressure seems to be having an effect and if the shooting of Qassam rockets picks up again, we will not hesitate to reimpose a full blockade," a source in Barak's office said Monday.

Not co-incidentally, it also gives the Egyptians the chance to look tough, without having to actually do anything for Hamas:

While it is unlikely that Egypt will heed Hamas calls to open the Sinai border, not wishing to grant Hamas a victory, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak called Barak and urged him to ease restrictions.

I would re-iterate the question asked above - how to stop the rocket attacks without temporarily cutting off supplies?

 

[gtc]

I have deep concern for those rocket attacks and have deep concern that you can't think of a any better response than to remove all humanitarian aid to the entire civilian population.

How would you respond?

so as for the rocket attacks....get used to it. Or get rid of the people running your Nation that are constantly formulating and enforcing policies almost guaranteed to see them continue indefinitely.

so as for the embargos....get used to it. Or get rid of the people running your Nation that are constantly formulating and enforcing policies almost guaranteed to see them continue indefinitely.

As already pointed out it cuts both ways and isn't very helpful.

yeeeeeeha....lets starve em out.......
Brilliant stuff.....

Well no one is starving, so that is a bit melodramatic.

 

[ddt]

Humanitarian aid? You mean like the SUGAR which was destined for gaza but at the IDF checkpoint, it was discovered that the shipment contained 6.5 tons of smuggled Potassium Nitrate, which is a precursor to rocket propellant?

A blogpost? Come on, you must have better sources. A newspaper article from a reputable newspaper. Or better still, a report from the UN or from a human rights organization like Amnesty or B'tselem.

Since you have proven yourself to be a repeat liar (see my post for a summary), I'm not going to trust a word of what you're saying and I advise others to do so too.

 

[ddt]

Going back to the 1950's when you will see the same exact type of attacks being perpetrated against Israelis. This is nothing new, and it's certainly not related to any "policies" of Israel, one way or the other.

• During the period between 1948 and 1967, the tortuous and elongated border between Israel and its neighbours was annually the scene of hundreds of Arab raids across the line.

How is today (2008) a different situation? Please explain....

Again an unsourced statement from webfusion. You're quite adept at making unverifiable claims.

Then how about this one:

The Qibya Operation was carried out in October 1953 by Israeli troops in the West Bank village of that name. The village name is sometimes spelt Kibya. The operation was referred to by the Israel Defense Force, or IDF, as Operation Shoshana or the Qibya Operation.

The assault on Qibya was carried out at night by two Israeli units: a paratroop company and Unit 101, a special forces unit of the IDF. During the raid 69 Palestinians were killed. Additionally, forty-five houses, a school, and a mosque were blown-up.

One instance of an Israeli reprisal -- by that career war criminal Ariel Sharon.

Indeed, nothing new under the sun.

 

[The Fool]

This tactic will continue to be used, because it works:

Can you expand on this a bit...in what way does it "work".

 

[The Fool]

How would you respond?

By addressing the Nationalist aspirations of the palestinians. By Addressing the Poverty and lawlessness that Palestinians live in. By actually supporting Palestinian moderate factions and attacking criminal militant factions and not lump them all together in on convenient cage. By actually giving a **** about them instead of coming up with all these silly rationalisations of why they deserve less human rights than any other humans on this planet. This will probably have to be enforced from outside as the Nation that occupies the region is not going to entertain any such solution.

 

[The Fool]

Well no one is starving, so that is a bit melodramatic.

Would you still say its ok when inevitable starvation occurred under a continuing blockade? I would not think so. I don't even think the Americans would allow Israel to starve people....so how much can they make this civilian population suffer? I'm just trying to find out what limits you would set for the Israeli government....Do we need one limit for Israel and another for all other nations?

 

[a_unique_person]

Not if that land is being used to wage war.


Which Palestinian group(s) is fighting for this freedom? Please provide evidence of your claims.


Which Palestinian group(s) is fighting for this freedom? Please provide evidence of your claims.


They'll get "their own borders" when they want to behave like a responsible state.


Why are there checkpoints again?


Sure, if they'll agree to recognize Israel's right to exist and to stop terrorist attacks aimed solely at civilians.


Which Palestinian group(s) is fighting for this freedom? Please provide evidence of your claims.


Which Palestinian group(s) is fighting for this freedom? Please provide evidence of your claims.


Which Palestinian group(s) is fighting for this freedom? Please provide evidence of your claims.


The Palestinians value none of those things, that's why they elected a terrorist group as their leaders who openly advocate the destruction of a sovereign nation and the installation of a totalitarian Islamic regime more typical of the 7th Century than the 21st.

George Dubya Bush himself says, this is a military occupation, and the plan is to produce a dysfunctional "swiss cheese" state.

 

[webfusion]

yairhol:

On the Palestinian side you have president Abu Alla.

Abu Mazen. (Abbas)

(Abu Alla is Ahmed Quori)


BTW, ddt is apparently having trouble finding information lately. Here's the link, ddt:
www.google.com


Anyway, he dismisses my account of the situation in 1950's and yet, his own link for wiki says that "The Israeli death toll for the first 9 months of 1953 was 32." ---
which had nothing to do with "The Occupation" after 1967.


Get your act together, ddt. Your histrionics are not helping your case.

 

[webfusion]

TF- the UN is saying that there is no lack of food supplies. Their complaint actually was that they had "run out of plastic bags"
--- John Ging, UNRWA DIrector in gaza
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3497001,00.html

You just can't make this stuff up.

 

[webfusion]

George Dubya Bush himself says, this is a military occupation, and the plan is to produce a dysfunctional "swiss cheese" state.

Why do you hate swiss cheese?

 

[Steve H]

...This tactic will continue to be used, because it works:

Quote:
"The message we wanted to send was received in Gaza. On Thursday some 40 rockets were fired against Israel from the Strip, and today... just a few. The military and economic pressure seems to be having an effect and if the shooting of Qassam rockets picks up again, we will not hesitate to reimpose a full blockade," a source in Barak's office said Monday.

Sounds like an attempt at PR damage-control to me. Tell me how such "pressure" would impact a militant lobbing a mortar or firing a rocket? This policy, which has correctly been labeled "collective punishment," will actually galvanize support for Hamas in Gaza and has already wrought international condemnation, even from nations historically friendly toward Israel.

Not co-incidentally, it also gives the Egyptians the chance to look tough, without having to actually do anything for Hamas:

Quote:
While it is unlikely that Egypt will heed Hamas calls to open the Sinai border, not wishing to grant Hamas a victory, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak called Barak and urged him to ease restrictions.

I wouldn't want to bet against the Egyptians opening their end of the Gaza border if Israel reestablishes an economic blockade. While Egypt finds Hamas unpalatable (and rightly so IMO) they would not stand by indefinitely while Gazans suffer. Remember, Egypt might not be at war with Israel nowadays, but they're not buddies.

I would re-iterate the question asked above - how to stop the rocket attacks without temporarily cutting off supplies?

Short-tern answer: Do the same thing that was done after the Israel-Hezbollah war in the summer of '06 - set up a buffer zone manned by the international community although I doubt Israel would go along with this.

Long-term answer? Establish a Palestinian homeland (I'll spare you a "War & Peace" post and just summarize my two cents here). First, scrap the dead-end "Road Map" and Annapolis "peace conference," which was nothing more than a photo-op, and get serious about working for peace. More players from the international community need to be involved for starters and these players would have to exert pressure on both sides to get the deal done. One of the first things that would need to be addressed is how to handle Hamas. You can't have an "East" and "West" Palestine. After the Palestinian schism is addressed, the hard part begins --- Israel is going to have to withdraw to the 1967 borders and give up sole ownership of Jerusalem. I think the best option would be to "internationalize" the city but if that can't be agreed on then Israel will have to get out of East Jerusalem. For this to work the US is going to have to get tough with Israel for a change. That, in a nutshell, is what needs to be done IMO.

 

[ddt]

Many people here seem to have the answer for the Israeli-Palestinian situation since they comment so much on Israel's acts for a peacefull life.
Here's the MDC for you guys: You are the prime ministers of Israel. Your people are bombed everyday with an average of about 10 rockets.[...]
On the Palestinian side you have president Abu Alla. He is a very nice person. really. He wants peace and has very good intentions for his people. [...] Abu Alla is making peace nagotiations with you but in the meanwhile Hamas is bombing Israel. Everyday.

Cut....

Now you guys are the prime ministers of Israel. Take it from here.

Regards,
Yair

I was thinking of reacting to your thought experiment. Really. But then I read this article in the Haaretz:

A United Nations report released Tuesday shows that there has been a six-percent rise in the number of barriers in the West Bank, despite pledges by Israel to reduce this amount.

Among its findings:

• Despite the promises to reduce them, the number of fixed physical barriers in the West Bank have increased from 528 to 563.
• Some 10,000 Palestinians who live in enclaves west of the West Bank fence are cut off from vital health and education services and from family and social networks.

The heads of the organizations claim that if there is not a dramatic turnabout in the situation in the territories, the seven billion dollars the donors promised in promise will go down the drain. If the policy of closures and the regime of roadblocks continue, even 70 billion dollars won't help the Palestinian Authority under the leadership of Mahmoud Abbas.

So, while you may be saying that Abbas is a nice guy and he wants to negotiate -- the Israeli leadership doesn't want to negotiate. It only wants to increase tightening the noose around the Palestinians' necks. Even those living in the quiet West Bank, which is controlled by Abbas and the PA government, as far as their authority goes (because the real control is, of course, with Israel).

I think this is an exercise in futility. It won't be long until violence again breaks out in the West Bank this way.

 

[ddt]

TF- the UN is saying that there is no lack of food supplies. Their complaint actually was that they had "run out of plastic bags"
--- John Ging, UNRWA DIrector in gaza
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3497001,00.html

You just can't make this stuff up.

And let's then read the whole paragraph:

Most of Gaza's 1.4 million residents are reliant on food aid for survival. However, another UN agency which provides food to 270,000 Gaza residents said it had enough supplies only until the end of this week. UNRWA will run out of the plastic bags on Thursday, said its Gaza director, John Ging. The bags are used for sugar and lentil rations.

So the UN is actually running out of food. You can't make this up indeed, webfusion.

 

[ddt]

BTW, ddt is apparently having trouble finding information lately. Here's the link, ddt:
www.google.com

You posit something; in this case, about smuggling potassium nitrate. I consider it perfectly normal to ask for a decent link. Referring me just to google is an insult to the debate.

Anyway, he dismisses my account of the situation in 1950's and yet, his own link for wiki says that "The Israeli death toll for the first 9 months of 1953 was 32." ---
which had nothing to do with "The Occupation" after 1967.

I don't dismiss it outright; I asked you to provide a source for your quote, which you should have done in the first place.

Get your act together, ddt. Your histrionics are not helping your case.

Get your own act together; perpetrating blatant falsehoods does not further your cause.

 

[yairhol]

I was thinking of reacting to your thought experiment. Really.

I'm still waiting for your solution to the Israeli Palestinian problem. You are the prime minister of Israel. What do you do now? You must answer quickly because 20 more rockets have been fired towards Israel today (and the day is not over yet). Others can help if they wish (every prime minister has advisors).

Regards,
Yair

 

[yairhol]

Originally Posted by webfusion
Get your act together, ddt. Your histrionics are not helping your case.

Get your own act together; perpetrating blatant falsehoods does not further your cause.

These arguments will not lead us far in this debate.
ddt, if you have a solution as to how Israel can secure its civilians lives and property we would all love to hear it. Even Israel's government would love to hear it.
Saying something like:

So, while you may be saying that Abbas is a nice guy and he wants to negotiate -- the Israeli leadership doesn't want to negotiate.

is without any justification. It's just words. You tell us what can be done to secure both sides.
Also saying:

I think this is an exercise in futility. It won't be long until violence again breaks out in the West Bank this way.

as opposed to the peaceful and relaxed life they were leading before that?

Regards,
Yair

 

[ddt]

Get your act together, ddt. Your histrionics are not helping your case.

Get your own act together; perpetrating blatant falsehoods does not further your cause.

These arguments will not lead us far in this debate.

You can't have a meaningful debate if you don't even agree on the bare facts. Have you reviewed my discussion with webfusion -- which was about bare facts.

ddt, if you have a solution as to how Israel can secure its civilians lives and property we would all love to hear it. Even Israel's government would love to hear it.

I argued that the Israeli government does not want to hear it. They're only interested in penning the Palestinians ever more in and grabbing more land. That's not a road to peace.

Saying something like:

So, while you may be saying that Abbas is a nice guy and he wants to negotiate -- the Israeli leadership doesn't want to negotiate.

is without any justification. It's just words. You tell us what can be done to secure both sides.

The UN report from the Haaretz article is enough justification for that statement. If Abbas is such a nice guy and runs a tight ship in the West Bank, then why is the increase in checkpoints needed? And all the other measures?
Also saying:

I think this is an exercise in futility. It won't be long until violence again breaks out in the West Bank this way.

as opposed to the peaceful and relaxed life they were leading before that?
[/QUOTE]
Peaceful and relaxed life? Have you read the UN report? Have you even bothered to read the Haaretz article? Need some more quotes:

The water supply dropped last year to 75 liters per person a day in the Strip and to 80.5 liters in the West Bank, approximately half the international standard.

"The restrictions on the movement of people and goods is choking the Palestinian economy and affecting quality of life in the occupied territories. Because of all this, even the UN agencies and other humanitarian organizations are facing new obstacles, increased operating costs, and restrictions on the distribution of aid to beneficiaries in the West Bank and Gaza Strip."

After every meeting between Abbas and Olmert over the last few months, the prime minister promised his colleague that he would reduce the number of roadblocks, which are disrupting the lives of West Bank residents. They said it was important to show the Palestinians the difference between Fatahland and Hamastan. But something is happening to the promises on the way from Jerusalem to Nablus. The report confirms the claims of the Palestinians and of the Israeli human rights organizations that only did the situation not improve, it even got worse.

"Despite repeated pledges by the Israeli authorities to ease the closure regime, the number of physical obstacles in the West Bank increased from 528 to 563 between January and September 2007. These fixed physical obstacles are augmented by flying checkpoints, estimated at 560 per month, as of 6 October. The closure regime, which controls and restricts access to workplaces, markets, health and education services, and impedes normal economic activity, is the main cause of the deteriorating humanitarian situation."

According to the figures, around 10,000 Palestinians who live in enclaves west of the fence, on the "Israeli" side, are cut off from vital health and education services and from family and social networks. A large number of Palestinians, mainly farmers who live east of the fence, need "visitors' permits" to reach their lands, water sources and other resources in the closed area.

A survey taken among 67 communities affected by the fence in northern Samaria found that only 20 percent of those who worked land along the Seam Line in the past currently hold permits. The regime of restricted movement and the fence is causing the splitting of markets, an increase in transport charges and is threatening livelihoods from the agricultural sector.

Don't you think those people get angrier every day at the ever increasing obstacles Israel puts in their way to lead a "peaceful and relaxed life"?

 

[FireGarden]

Here's the MDC for you guys: You are the prime ministers of Israel. Your people are bombed everyday with an average of about 10 rockets. Sometimes 30 a day and sometimes 5 or 6. Hundreds of casualties, all of them civilians. This followed years of suicide bombings in Israeli cities around the country killing hundreds and wounding thousands.
On the Palestinian side you have president Abu Alla. He is a very nice person. really. He wants peace and has very good intentions for his people. On the other hand, the majority of the palestinian people voted Hamas to be their leader party and head of the government. The Hamas is mostly responsible for what's been said in paragraph one. They are known world-wide as a terrorist organization. Abu Alla is making peace nagotiations with you but in the meanwhile Hamas is bombing Israel. Everyday.

Cut....

Now you guys are the prime ministers of Israel. Take it from here.

Regards,
Yair

An answer to that was implied in one of the Gideon Levy articles linked earlier:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/946518.html

Has the daily mass killing in Gaza improved the security situation? No, it has only made it worse. Has it reduced the number of Qassams? No, it has led to their proliferation. So why are we killing? We need "to do something" and there needs to be "a price tag." These are hollow cliches. A review of recent newspapers presents a clear picture: As long as the U.S. president was still in the country, Israel refrained from liquidations, and the number of Qassams decreased. When George Bush left, we resumed killing and, as a result, Sderot has faced the most difficult days it has ever known.

If things get worse in Gaza, I can see the population marching on Tel Aviv -- demanding full citizenship rights. In the sense that most of them have had an Israeli government running their lives for them since the day they were born, they're already Israelis. Olmert himself fears that one day the Palestinians will give up wanting a state of their own, and just demand equal rights with all the other people who have their lives ruled by the Israeli government.