Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

[FireGarden]

meanwhile,
Egypt refuses to help those fleeing Gaza:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6934A45C-AE0D-44D8-B1B0-039D7E73DF8C.htm

Dozens of Palestinian protesters have stormed the Rafah border crossing with Egypt, demanding that the frontier be opened to ease the blockade imposed on the territory by Israel.

Several protesters were wounded as Egyptian police opened fire in the air and used batons and water canons to push back the protesters.

[...] Angry protesters complained that Gaza was under siege from both Israel and neighbouring Arabs.

[...] At least four Palestinians were wounded during the protest, medics said.

Eleven Egyptian policemen were injured, including one from gunfire and the other 10 from rocks thrown at them.

 

[geni]

Egypt has enough issues with it's own islamic radicals. I doubt it feels the need to import them.

 

[The Fool]

TF- the UN is saying that there is no lack of food supplies. Their complaint actually was that they had "run out of plastic bags"
--- John Ging, UNRWA DIrector in gaza
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3497001,00.html

You just can't make this stuff up.

you are being naughty again web......There is plenty of food in the world, there is plenty of just about everything. Where humanitarian crisis occur is normally where some boofheads get in the way of the supply chain from the source to the people. In this case the boofheads would be the IDF.

To characterise the issue as simply about plastic bags is just silly....something has to run out first, unless you are attempting to claim that plastic bags are the only thing you are stopping? Is that the case?

 

[The Fool]

Egypt has enough issues with it's own islamic radicals. I doubt it feels the need to import them.

Yes...one of the standard chants is that Palestinians and the arab states all around Israel are in each others pockets....fraternal brothers against Israel. In reality Palestinians are about as welcome as herpes throughout the world arab or not. Thats the trouble with stateless people isn't it.....nowhere to deport them to if you have to so never let them set foot inside. Stateless people are a huge problem....hey, wait....I've just had an idea about that stateless thing!!!

 

[webfusion]

And let's then read the whole paragraph:
"However, another UN agency which provides food to 270,000 Gaza residents said it had enough supplies only until the end of this week."
So the UN is actually running out of food. You can't make this up indeed, webfusion.

I do not know of food shortages. The link is referring to the "supplies of plastic bags" and that had run low. That's the whole story. At this point, Israeli has made available all the freakin' plastic bags the UN wants. Millions of 'em if that's what they desire.
This isn't rocket science.

Where humanitarian crisis occur is normally where some boofheads get in the way of the supply chain from the source to the people. In this case the boofheads would be the IDF.

Nope.
The "supply chain" is being disrupted by HAMAS, which is rejecting the free flow of goods at the crossings. They are rocketing Israel and firing mortars at the crossings. They are abusing the crosssings and smuggling raw explosives and Potassium Nitrate, in trucks of merchandise that are clearly marked "Humanitarian Aid" ---

# Jan. 18 - Eight mortars fired at Sufa crossing
# Jan. 12 - Qassam falls near to Erez crossing
# Jan.7 - Attempted suicide-bombing of Erez crossing by Palestinian Islamic Jihad
# Jan. 1, 2008 - Five mortars fired at Sufa crossing
# Dec. 31, 2007 - Two mortars fired at Sufa crossing
# Dec. 26 - Qassams strike close to Erez crossing
# Dec. 26 -Qassam hits Kissufim crossing
# Dec. 22 - Eight mortars hit the Karni and Kissufim crossings

On Jan. 14, two tons of explosive material was found during a check of a humanitarian aid delivery at the Kerem Shalom goods terminal from Israel into the Gaza Strip.
The Israeli GSS estimates that 80 tons of explosives were smuggled into the Gaza Strip last year (2007).


HAMASTAN is now armed to the teeth, and they'll pay a serious price when push comes to shove with the IDF. Gaza may end up being turned into a DMZ. The hard way.

 

[a_unique_person]

I do not know of food shortages. The link is referring to the "supplies of plastic bags" and that had run low. That's the whole story. At this point, Israeli has made available all the freakin' plastic bags the UN wants. Millions of 'em if that's what they desire.
This isn't rocket science.



Nope.
The "supply chain" is being disrupted by HAMAS, which is rejecting the free flow of goods at the crossings. They are rocketing Israel and firing mortars at the crossings. They are abusing the crosssings and smuggling raw explosives and Potassium Nitrate, in trucks of merchandise that are clearly marked "Humanitarian Aid" ---

# Jan. 18 - Eight mortars fired at Sufa crossing
# Jan. 12 - Qassam falls near to Erez crossing
# Jan.7 - Attempted suicide-bombing of Erez crossing by Palestinian Islamic Jihad
# Jan. 1, 2008 - Five mortars fired at Sufa crossing
# Dec. 31, 2007 - Two mortars fired at Sufa crossing
# Dec. 26 - Qassams strike close to Erez crossing
# Dec. 26 -Qassam hits Kissufim crossing
# Dec. 22 - Eight mortars hit the Karni and Kissufim crossings

On Jan. 14, two tons of explosive material was found during a check of a humanitarian aid delivery at the Kerem Shalom goods terminal from Israel into the Gaza Strip.
The Israeli GSS estimates that 80 tons of explosives were smuggled into the Gaza Strip last year (2007).


HAMASTAN is now armed to the teeth, and they'll pay a serious price when push comes to shove with the IDF. Gaza may end up being turned into a DMZ. The hard way.

# Jan. 18 - Under Military Occupation
# Jan. 12 - Under Military Occupation
# Jan.7 - Under Military Occupation
# Jan. 1, 2008 - Under Military Occupation
# Dec. 31, 2007 - Under Military Occupation
# Dec. 26 - Under Military Occupation
# Dec. 26 -Under Military Occupation
# Dec. 22 - Under Military Occupation

 

[yairhol]

The UN report from the Haaretz article is enough justification for that statement. If Abbas is such a nice guy and runs a tight ship in the West Bank, then why is the increase in checkpoints needed? And all the other measures?

Because Abbas is not running the show in Gaza. The Hamas is and they're not as nice as he is.

An answer to that was implied in one of the Gideon Levy articles linked earlier:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/946518.html


Quote:
Has the daily mass killing in Gaza improved the security situation? No, it has only made it worse. Has it reduced the number of Qassams? No, it has led to their proliferation. So why are we killing? We need "to do something" and there needs to be "a price tag." These are hollow cliches. A review of recent newspapers presents a clear picture: As long as the U.S. president was still in the country, Israel refrained from liquidations, and the number of Qassams decreased. When George Bush left, we resumed killing and, as a result, Sderot has faced the most difficult days it has ever known.

If things get worse in Gaza, I can see the population marching on Tel Aviv -- demanding full citizenship rights. In the sense that most of them have had an Israeli government running their lives for them since the day they were born, they're already Israelis. Olmert himself fears that one day the Palestinians will give up wanting a state of their own, and just demand equal rights with all the other people who have their lives ruled by the Israeli government.

Still no answer to my question. What do you do NOW to resolve the problem?
You (and others) say that Israel is evil, torturing those poor poor palestinians who's only sin is to want peace between the countries..right....so if you're Olmert, you take down all baricades now? You take all Israeli soldiers out of the occupied territories? Tell me what do you do. You have a current situation which you need to deal with. (unless of course you think Israel does not have the right to be in its current geographical location which would make it not reasonable of me to ask you what you would do in Olmert's situation).

Regards,
Yair

 

[a_unique_person]

You (and others) say that Israel is evil, torturing those poor poor palestinians who's only sin is to want peace between the countries..right....

Wrong.

 

[mrbaracuda]

By addressing the Nationalist aspirations of the palestinians.

As in "driving the evil Jewish opressor back into the sea"? That kind of thing?

By Addressing the Poverty and lawlessness that Palestinians live in.

Gee, I wonder who's responsible for that poverty, with all the aid they get blown up their ***. And lawlessness? Last time I checked Hamas was "the law" and even drove out remnants of Fateh during their petty dispute that was resolved with the use of Mr Kalashnikov.

By actually supporting Palestinian moderate factions and attacking criminal militant factions and not lump them all together in on convenient cage.

Who? And good luck getting slaughtered, moderate factions, whoever you may be, whatever sway you might hold.

By actually giving a **** about them instead of coming up with all these silly rationalisations of why they deserve less human rights than any other humans on this planet.

Who says they deserve less? I don't know but for starters stopping those daily rocket attacks, or just the propaganda machine might be a good start to be put on equal moral grounds. Not having a turnout of, what was it, 90%? during the election where the main two parties are outright terrorism supporters would also help to see "which side you're on".

This will probably have to be enforced from outside as the Nation that occupies the region is not going to entertain any such solution.

Yea, and while you're at it, pity them a bit more and throw in some cash.

 

[The Fool]

As in "driving the evil Jewish opressor back into the sea"? That kind of thing?

No... as in "Addressing the nationalist aspirations of the Palestinians" that sort of thing. And cut the "drive the jews into the sea" mantra...its so last year, you need to get the latest chants. Nobody is going to be capable of driving jews into the sea.... thats a scary bedtime story told to kids to get them to eat thier vegetables.

Gee, I wonder who's responsible for that poverty, with all the aid they get blown up their ***. And lawlessness? Last time I checked Hamas was "the law" and even drove out remnants of Fateh during their petty dispute that was resolved with the use of Mr Kalashnikov.

yep. Hamas is right up there on the list of things that are wrong with the place and its a long long long list. And the thing with international aid is that it can target some specific things for improvement and even lift overall living standards for a short time but you can't lift everyone out of poverty for extended periods on overseas aid....do you understand that? You can provide aid money, pat yourself on the back and wash your hands of the whole thing if you like. You can even blame the victims for thier fate .....if you like... Or you could have a go at helping fix it.

Who?

Thats right son....they are all the same...

Who says they deserve less? I don't know but for starters stopping those daily rocket attacks, or just the propaganda machine might be a good start to be put on equal moral grounds. Not having a turnout of, what was it, 90%? during the election where the main two parties are outright terrorism supporters would also help to see "which side you're on".

oh don't be a crybaby....we asked them to have an election. They did. The fact that the only alternatives were dickheads is presumably thier fault too? You deny the existance of any reasonable alternatives to support....How many Palestinian factions could go to the people and say vote for me and we can deal with the Israelis and get this palestinian nation on the map? answer is none....that is zero.

You want some mob subject to foreign sanctions to succeed in stopping ALL rocket attacks BEFORE they can take power? well yeeeehaaa who has been unable to do that in the after all these years? Answer is NOBODY....not the IDF any of the palestinian factions to date, the US, the UN or the boy scouts of america.....but you want someone to scratch together some people and pull it off before you agree to give them a chance of trying something different.

yep, something different...is that so scary? Still, maybe you are more comfortable with "Its failed so far lets just keep doing it"

You need to come to the realisation that it is highly unlikely that an Israeli government is ever going to voluntarily agree to a Palestinian state .....to get a feel for that have a read of the Likud Charter when you get a chance....I fear it is going to need international pressure at the very least and possibly international intervention.

Now think about that lot and either get with the program or continue to chant slogans....your choice.

Yea, and while you're at it, pity them a bit more and throw in some cash.

or whistle a happy tune and look the other way?

 

[The Fool]

What do you do NOW to resolve the problem?

NOW?? OK.... Now you get Israel to publish a map of Israel. Next determine if what is left is capable of being proclaimed a National homeland for the palestinians. Can you describe what your map would look like, everyone else seems to get so very vague when asked. If it is the case that enough land is left over then you proclaim Palestine (This requires foreign armies to leave ....sorry)....sort of like what happened to the Israelis.

 

[ddt]

The UN report from the Haaretz article is enough justification for that statement. If Abbas is such a nice guy and runs a tight ship in the West Bank, then why is the increase in checkpoints needed? And all the other measures?

Because Abbas is not running the show in Gaza. The Hamas is and they're not as nice as he is.

You still ignore the point I'm making: even with "nice guy" Abbas running the show in the West Bank, Israel is worsening the situation in the West Bank.

Still no answer to my question. What do you do NOW to resolve the problem?

Why don't you acknowledge my argument first?

 

[gtc]

Can you expand on this a bit...in what way does it "work".

Yep. It worked because the number of rocket attacks decreased and no one starved. However, the ABC has just reported that Palestinians have stormed the crossing with Egypt; so it may not work out as easily as it seemed yesterday.

By addressing the Nationalist aspirations of the palestinians.

Unlike webfusion I agree with this, but which particular aspirations and do you think that the Palestinians and their leaders will be satisfied or will they want more?

By Addressing the Poverty and lawlessness that Palestinians live in. By actually supporting Palestinian moderate factions and attacking criminal militant factions and not lump them all together in on convenient cage.

Perhaps they should reinvade the Gaza and abandon the Westbank?

Would you still say its ok when inevitable starvation occurred under a continuing blockade?

That is the thing though, there was no starvation and the Israelis appear to have had as much interest in prolonging the blockade as the Palestinians have the ability to push the Jews into the sea.

Israel, like the UK in Northern Ireland in the 1980s, wants to reduce terrorism without raising the ire of the outside world (in this case it seems they want to reduce the likelihood that Egypt or the US will react). That means no pictures of starving children in Palestine. Hence, the blockade was a temporary measure designed to produce a temporary reduction in the number of rockets being fired at Israel.

I suspect Hamas' actions in breaking down the border with Egypt is an attempt to force Egypt to get involved.

I don't even think the Americans would allow Israel to starve people....so how much can they make this civilian population suffer? I'm just trying to find out what limits you would set for the Israeli government....Do we need one limit for Israel and another for all other nations?

The question isn't really relevant as I don't see any evidence that Israel had any interest in letting people starve.

And let's then read the whole paragraph:


So the UN is actually running out of food. You can't make this up indeed, webfusion.

The UN was running out of food in the same way that I am running out of food. Both the UN and I can go and get more food before anyone starves.

Yes...one of the standard chants is that Palestinians and the arab states all around Israel are in each others pockets....fraternal brothers against Israel. In reality Palestinians are about as welcome as herpes throughout the world arab or not.

The Palestinians were only one of the many groups who ended up stateless after the end of WWII. Few if any of those groups have returned to their ancestral homelands but only the Palestinians remain stateles to this day. Why is that? Could it have something to do with the desire of their neighbours to maintain pressure on Israel?

Thats the trouble with stateless people isn't it.....nowhere to deport them to if you have to so never let them set foot inside.

Australia, the US and Europe lets hundeds of thousands of stateless people into their countries every year. Millions of stateless people were resettled after WWII and became citizens of their new countries (quite a few found sanctuary in Israel). The Palestinians have been living among their fellow arabs for nearly 60 years and yet still remain stateless. Why is that?

NOW?? OK.... Now you get Israel to publish a map of Israel. Next determine if what is left is capable of being proclaimed a National homeland for the palestinians. Can you describe what your map would look like, everyone else seems to get so very vague when asked.

I hope you aren't including me because I think I have answered this question before. Israel should give up Gaza (build a bigger wall around it, close all crossings into Israel if necessary and let the Egyptians manage their border, lob 2 rockets towards the general vacinity of the position from which any rocket was fired into Israel); the vast majority of the West Bank (although I would not care if Israel unilaterally set the border so as to maximise its defensive position); Golan heights if Syria signs a peace treaty and historical Jerusalem should be kept neutral (Egypt and the US should be pressured to provide the muscle to ensure it stays that way).

 

[webfusion]

# Jan. 18 - Under Military Occupation
# Jan. 12 - Under Military Occupation
# Jan.7 - Under Military Occupation
# Jan. 1, 2008 - Under Military Occupation
# Dec. 31, 2007 - Under Military Occupation
# Dec. 26 - Under Military Occupation
# Dec. 26 -Under Military Occupation
# Dec. 22 - Under Military Occupation

1955 -- Not Under Military Occupation.

• Going back to the 1950's when you will see the same exact type of attacks being perpetrated against Israelis. This is nothing new, and it's certainly not related to any "policies" of Israel, one way or the other.
  
  * During the period between 1948 and 1967, the tortuous and elongated border between Israel and its neighbours was annually the scene of hundreds of Arab raids across the line. Israeli men, women and children were killed indiscriminately, villages were attacked, houses blown up and civilians kidnapped in unending Arab guerrilla warfare. Let's refer to 1955 as a typical year in which there were ongoing series of attacks along the so-called Rhodes cease fire lines, including 75 dead jews, and 179 wounded.

I asked before in an earlier post, and I'll ask again ---
How is today (2008) a different situation? Please explain....


Meanwhile, T-F indicates:

...Or you could have a go at helping fix it.

It's un-fixable.
In my humble opinion.

 

[JoeEllison]

# Jan. 18 - Under Military Occupation
# Jan. 12 - Under Military Occupation
# Jan.7 - Under Military Occupation
# Jan. 1, 2008 - Under Military Occupation
# Dec. 31, 2007 - Under Military Occupation
# Dec. 26 - Under Military Occupation
# Dec. 26 -Under Military Occupation
# Dec. 22 - Under Military Occupation

I wonder if, deep down, the Israelis in charge of things don't see the Palestinians as the ones who are "occupiers", and Israel's illegal behaviors are part of "liberating" what they see as land that is rightfully theirs?

 

[WildCat]

Golan heights if Syria signs a peace treaty

I don't see Israel ever giving up the Golan Heights. From the GH, all of northern Israel is within artillery range. The country assasinating peaceful Lebanese opposition parties and arming and training Hezbollah can never be trusted with it again.

 

[WildCat]

I wonder if, deep down, the Israelis in charge of things don't see the Palestinians as the ones who are "occupiers", and Israel's illegal behaviors are part of "liberating" what they see as land that is rightfully theirs?

And your evidence is...?

 

[ddt]

The Palestinians were only one of the many groups who ended up stateless after the end of WWII. Few if any of those groups have returned to their ancestral homelands but only the Palestinians remain stateles to this day. Why is that? Could it have something to do with the desire of their neighbours to maintain pressure on Israel?

Funny you bring up statelessness. The utmost majority of the displaced persons after WW2 were not stateless; they still had a nationality, and none of those countries disappeared, and they could find a new home in those countries. Homeless? Yes. Driven from their ancestral home? Yes. Refugees? Yes. But stateless? No.

The Palestinians are indeed stateless: between the end of the mandate, the declaration of the state Israel, and the failure of establishing a Palestinian state, they have become stateless persons. While I do not absolve the Arab states from past co-responsibility in the matter, the current state of affairs is that Israel refuses the founding of a Palestinian state on the soil of the occupied territories, and thus denies the Palestinians there state-ness.

As to refugees, Israel has driven them out, has passed a law that they can't get back in, and has refused to even talk about it until now - see for instance the Israeli reaction to the Saudi peace proposal.

Israel has promised the right of return on becoming a member of the UN, and has not lived up to that.

Australia, the US and Europe lets hundeds of thousands of stateless people into their countries every year.

Refugees? Yes. Asylum seekers? Yes. Stateless? No.

Millions of stateless people were resettled after WWII and became citizens of their new countries (quite a few found sanctuary in Israel).

Resettled in their original countries, for the most part.

The Palestinians have been living among their fellow arabs for nearly 60 years and yet still remain stateless. Why is that?

The Arab states have always been of the opinion that Israel should accept the right of return. They have watered down their stance, in that it should be discussed as part of a peace plan. Israel flat out refuses to do so.

 

[FireGarden]

Still no answer to my question. What do you do NOW to resolve the problem?

I thought the answer in Levy's article was obvious: invite Bush back to stay! Or do you not believe Levy's statement?: "A review of recent newspapers presents a clear picture: As long as the U.S. president was still in the country, Israel refrained from liquidations, and the number of Qassams decreased. When George Bush left, we resumed killing and, as a result, Sderot has faced the most difficult days it has ever known."

You (and others) say that Israel is evil, torturing those poor poor palestinians who's only sin is to want peace between the countries..right....

You paint us as naive, which makes us easy to attack. When the IRA is brought up as an example, the response is that "they weren't so bad". But they were bad, and they would have been worse if the British had treated the population that supported them in the same way that Israel treats the Palestinians.

so if you're Olmert, you take down all baricades now? You take all Israeli soldiers out of the occupied territories? Tell me what do you do.

My solution? The one-state solution. Olmert has said that time is running out for the two-state solution. He fears that the Palestinians (and the world) will conclude that no viable Palestinian state is possible and the Palestinians will demand full Israeli citizenship. Sharon was of the same opinion, which is why he was willing to give up land without even asking for anything in return -- effectively pulling the rug out from under negotiations. Because if negotiations didn't win the Gaza pull-out, then what did? The militants think they did it.

What has Abbas got out of negotiating? More checkpoints. Growing settlements. Not what he wanted.

Perhaps when faced with a choice between negotiating to gain more checkpoints and larger settlements, or militants who ask "Well what DID make the Israelis leave Gaza?" you might understand why Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said in a televised interview that if he were a Palestinian, then he might have joined a terrorist organisation.



And what happens to the non-violent protestors?
They get arrested on secret charges: Amira Hass -- non-violence frightens the army
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=499602

Ahmed Awad is dangerous for public security. That's what the Shin Bet thinks, that's what Col. Yossi Adiri thinks, that's what military prosecutor Itai Pollak thinks. The three are responsible for the issue of an administrative arrest order against him at the end of October, meaning an arrest without trial, without any way to respond to the accusations against him.

Military Judge Adrian Agassi, on the other hand, does not think Awad is dangerous to public security. He ordered a cancelation of the administrative arrest order. But the military judge in the military appeals court, Moshe Tirosh, agrees that Awad is dangerous to the public. On November 3, he ordered a cancelation of the cancelation of the administrative arrest order.

[...] Tirosh, after all, was basing his decision on secret material on which the Shin Bet grounded the request for an administrative detention: the exact same secret material in which Agassi found no evidentiary basis for an arrest.

[...] Awad, 42, is a high school teacher, father of six and one of the leaders of the Committee for the Popular Struggle against the Separation Fence, which went up in the village of Burdus. The activity by the residents of that village a year ago signaled the start of a grass-roots, non-violent Palestinian struggle against the route of the fence and its accompanying bulldozers, guards, military jeeps and soldiers.

Tear gas, beatings and shootings did not deter them. Quite a few Israelis joined their struggle, and ties of friendship and trust have been formed between them and the residents of the village.

So the Israeli government keeps secret the real reason for the detention of a man who was building bridges between Israeli and Palestinian people. The strength of those bridges was so strong that when 41 anti-fence demonstrators were arrested near Budrus, there was a Spartacus moment:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=511396

Security forces arrested 41 Israeli left-wing activists who were participating in a demonstration against the separation fence yesterday near the West Bank village of Budrus.

The protesters, who were from the groups Anarchists Against the Fence and Ta’ayush Arab Jewish partnership, were demonstrating against the use of village grounds for the construction of the West Bank separation fence and against the Israel Defense Forces’ decision to place Budrus resident Ahmed Awad under administrative detention for organizing anti-fence protests.

None of the Israelis arrested were carrying their identity cards, and when asked their names they all said, “My name is Ahmed Awad.”

The IDF said it disrupted the demonstration because Israeli and foreign activists leading the protest violated an agreement the army had made with Budrus residents, whereby the protest would take place only near the village and not near the construction site.

Not bad for an ex-member of Hamas. And I can see why Awad is such a frightening person to the Israeli Government. He was succeeding in building bridges between Israelis and Palestinians. ARRRRGGGHHHHH! Run to the hills!

 

[Nogbad]

The present situation cannot continue. It is time for Gaza and the West Bank and Israel to combine into one state with all the citizens having equal political and property rights. It could be called Israepal or Palrael. Continuing to hold out a false hope of an independent Palestinian state seems unlikely to wash for much longer. Both sides have to bite the bullet (instead of shooting it) and realise you cannot wish away 6m Israelis or 5m+ Palestinians.