Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[tim]

Looks like they killed "The Invisible Bigfoot" thread, because of the fraud being perpetrated by the character assassin crowd over there. Not because they did not want to allow the fraud. But because they wanted the CHARACTER ASSASSINS to have the last word. I have a good rebuttal sitting in the "In Basket" over there, which exposes probably more fraud than JREF wants to have exposed. And they won't post it. Could it be that Chillzero got caught violating the law, in addition to violating the rules?

All the Bigfoot threads are comprised of character assassins playing mind games with pro-footers, by demanding that the impossible be proven, over the internet. It is impossible to prove anything over the internet, much less the existence of a supernatural 700 lb hairy creature, that primarily exists in the higher dimensions. By dog piling on the pro-footers with fabricated accusation after fabricated accusation, they normally wear them down until they leave. One clever game that I see played over and over again, is that the assassins will drop a strategy that they cannot provide anything close to proof. And then weeks later, they will clear state "that we already proved that". Misrepresentation is fraud. But that is their game and they are good at it.

Oh dear. oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

 

[historian]

What? Just because the Invisible Bigfoot thread dropped more than half way down the page you think it's dead? Looks open to me.

But then Babylon Sister is living in denial of just about everything, so for him to express the opinion that the Invisible thread "Looks Open", is representative of his general ability to reach incorrect conclusions based on the best available evidence.

 

[historian]

Nice goalpost shift. You asked: "Do you have any condition precedent where a body/suit was not necessary to prove that a crime was committed?" and then you said "NO."

I provided evidence that the precedent had been set. Therefore, you lose.

BTW. You do know that habeus corpus is about a legal action taken so that a jailed/imprisoned person can seek relief from unlawful detention don't you?

To quote a well worn and time honored phrase: "I don't think that word means what you think it means."

"Corupus delicti" will work just fine in substitution then.

 

[Locknar]

The BEEF is in virtually every forest on the North American Continent, and may well be in every forest on every continent. You just don't have the rocks to go out there at night, and do a little searching without a flashlight, without a gun and without your buddies to drown out the noises that they are going to make.

Right....virtually every forest in North America, yet no credible evidence. As to your other comment...I honestly don't think your silly camp fire stories scare anyone.

Anytime you wanna provide some type of proof/evidence of any of your claims have at it. Until then, you're claims just come off as being false/lies.

BTW - Good luck with your appeal in the mod section.

 

[Babylon Sister]

But then Babylon Sister is living in denial of just about everything, so for him to express the opinion that the Invisible thread "Looks Open", is representative of his general ability to reach incorrect conclusions based on the best available evidence.

It's her, by the way. Hence the name Babylon SISTER

 

[bruto]

But then Babylon Sister is living in denial of just about everything, so for him to express the opinion that the Invisible thread "Looks Open", is representative of his general ability to reach incorrect conclusions based on the best available evidence.

I just posted on that thread. Of course now that it's moderated, it may take a while for the post to appear, but please note that I am stating here and now (5:40 EST, Jan 12) that I just posted on that thread, which is not labeled as locked, closed, or otherwise terminated or removed. If my post appears after moderator acceptance, then you will, I hope, apologize to Babylon Sister for the erroneous and insulting assumptions which you have so impolitely stated above.

Historian, my post has now appeared on the "invisible" thread. That thread is, as Babylon Sister stated, open. You were wrong. Will you have the graciousness to acknowledge that?

 

[erikbeckjord]

Right....virtually every forest in North America, yet no credible evidence. As to your other comment...I honestly don't think your silly camp fire stories scare anyone.

Anytime you wanna provide some type of proof/evidence of any of your claims have at it. Until then, you're claims just come off as being false/lies.

BTW - Good luck with your appeal in the mod section.

STOP THIS. There will be no proof in the form of a dead body, and advanced
researchers admit this.

DON'T YOU READ THE PAST POSTS???????????????

Bigfoot is not a species.

M.

 

[erikbeckjord]

Is it libelous for Bob Gimlin to say that Bob Heironimus is a liar?

No. Hieronimous IS a liar.

M.

 

[Married2aWooster]

"Corupus delicti" will work just fine in substitution then.

If you mean the phrase "corpus delicti", then once again the statement "I don't think those words mean what you think they mean" will apply.

Physical evidence of a dead body is not a requirement for a murder conviction under U.S. law. The phrase in question describes any evidence of "the body of the crime" independent from a confession. It is used figuratively, not literally. See any copy of Black's Law Dictionary

That is all.

 

[historian]

Drove down to Atlanta last night; President Carter spoke (very solemnly, for the most part, about human rights issues). He did chat afterward.

He has never seen or experienced a manifestation of Bigfoot.
He does not believe that Bigfoot is a paranormal creature.
He never said in a press conference that he thought Bigfoot was paranormal.

Dec. 13th post #1349 by Spektator in the Invisible Bigfoot thread

In this posting by Spektator, HE CLAIMS THAT OUT OF PERHAPS 1000 PEOPLE PRESENT, THAT HE WAS SO SPECIAL AS TO CATCH CARTER AFTER HIS SPEECH, AND ACTUALLY ASK HIM 3 QUESTIONS ABOUT BIGFOOT, THAT IN ALL PROBABILITY WOULD HAVE HAD TO OCCUR IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO THE NEWS MEDIA, BANK PRESIDENTS, CORPORATE CEOS, THE SECRET SERVICE, CARTER'S WIFE, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE CARTER CENTER, ETC. ETC.
Spektator offered no description of how he got Carter's attention, where he got Carter's attention or any other little details that would tend to lend veractiy to his outrageous claim.

Spektator's post is such an OBVIOUS LIE, that I did not bother to respond.

 

[Locknar]

Dec. 13th post #1349 by Spektator in the Invisible Bigfoot thread

In this posting by Spektator, HE CLAIMS THAT OUT OF PERHAPS 1000 PEOPLE PRESENT, THAT HE WAS SO SPECIAL AS TO CATCH CARTER AFTER HIS SPEECH, AND ACTUALLY ASK HIM 3 QUESTIONS ABOUT BIGFOOT, THAT IN ALL PROBABILITY WOULD HAVE HAD TO OCCUR IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO THE NEWS MEDIA, BANK PRESIDENTS, CORPORATE CEOS, THE SECRET SERVICE, CARTER'S WIFE, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE CARTER CENTER, ETC. ETC.
Spektator offered no description of how he got Carter's attention, where he got Carter's attention or any other little details that would tend to lend veractiy to his outrageous claim.

Spektator's post is such an OBVIOUS LIE, that I did not bother to respond.

What does this have to with the OP; ie. the Patterson-Grimlin Film?

I've taken the liberty of cross-posting this to the appropriate thread...the moderated yet OPEN "Invisiable BF" thread...the one you've falsely claimed was closed.

 

[Married2aWooster]

But then Babylon Sister is living in denial of just about everything, so for him to express the opinion that the Invisible thread "Looks Open", is representative of his general ability to reach incorrect conclusions based on the best available evidence.

An apology is in order here. Your ad hom in this post is reprehensible.

 

[Married2aWooster]

33 hours of closure, looks OPEN? You have got to be kidding. GET A LIFE!

How's that apology to Babylon Sister coming?
Let me recap:
(Moderated Thread) not = (Closed Thread)
(Corpus Delicti) not = (Must Produce a Body)

Any other basic reasoning you need help with, let us know.

 

[XBoxWarrior]

Holy Bat **** Crazy Long Thread.......

(soon to be deleted post)

 

[Spektator]

I have historian on ignore, but I saw his posting because it was quoted. I will only observe that his description of the event, made from three thousand miles away, does not resemble in any significant detail what actually happened; he seems to be in denial.

Intemperate, accusatory, inflammatory, inaccurate posts require no real response.

But none of this has anything to do with the P-G film.

 

[Dfoot]

In Mr. Patterson's 1966 book he declares that he and Bob Gimlin heard all sorts of "Bigfoot grunts" and footsteps following them while scouting Ape Canyon. He then predicted that it wouldn't be long after what he called his "pre-expeditions" that he would come forth with something more than footprints. I wonder what he meant. In his own words: "...this brings us closer to that one expedition we eagerly anticipate." I think I know the one he referred to.

Below: Patterson is shown in his book at APE CANYON. Unfortunately, this photo was taken across the street from his home. The neighbor who took it was surprised to see her property described as being at Ape Canyon since it's nowhere near there. Same place he claimed to be when the footprints that led him back to Bluff Creek were being laid down just prior to his Patty film.

Seems wherever this guy went, like Ivan Marx or Ray Wallace, footprints would precede his visits. What fine luck the man had.

I recommend following the advice he gives in the last picture of his book. If the print is too small then let me type it here:

"He who seeketh long enough and hard enough will find the truth, whatever that truth may be." - Roger Patterson

Good advice Roger. Reminds me of how Freeman posed with his finger next to his track of dermal ridges - made by that same finger. The balls of these guys must've dragged on the ground.

 

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

Your costume analysis is well informed. You seem to have a lot of insight into suit making, and even connections in the business.

My knowledge of special effects comes mostly from research about the subject and building Halloween displays. The majority of my connections in the entertainment industry are on independent side of things and none of them are connected to special effects (unless you could Dfoot and I responding to eachother's posts).

So c'mon, if some costume maker did make the PGF suit, surely people in the business would know who, how, and when the suit was made (by now).

Sure some people would know, but would they tell (especially if they had signed a contract guaranteeing their silence)? There's also the issue that a man suspected of helping create the suit, Janos Prohaska, died in a plane crash in the 70's. This suspicion supported by statements he made against Patty being a costume that blatantly contradict his own work experience (Like saying that it'd be hard to find a big man when he worked with such men on "Star Trek"). Rick Baker's rumor that John Chambers was behind it seems to have complicated the matter. I'd link you to Mark Chorvinsky's investigation on the matter to show you the difficulties he faced in talking to certain people in the industry, but I recall that you "don't do links."

As for the how, Bob Burns says a water bag was used base don his frame-by-frame analysis of the film. Stan Winston says that the fur is fake based on the way the fur looks/its lack of structure.

And let's face it, it's not like the majority of Bigfoot proponents would believe any Hollywood insider who came forward with such details.

I've read here that a Mr. Chambers is credited with the Minnesota Ice Man.

Well, he apparently provided some advice, but he didn't create it. Howard Ball should get the bulk of the credit and others might've done touch-up work. It seems to me that Frank Hansen went to different people with different areas of expertise in order to get the exact look he wanted for the Iceman. More on the subject can be found in the JREF thread "The Minnesota Iceman."

Oh wait, beginner's luck, right?

Heh, that actually reminds me of something Bill Munns said in part four of his Patty analysis. In it, he discusses how Hollywood makeup men of the day felt threatened by amateur upstarts whose work rivaled/surpassed theirs.

I vaguely recall seeing this mentioned. Is this gentleman still alive today?

Mr. Morris is still alive, but I think he's probably lying about selling Patterson a suit. Awhile back, I posted a quote from a book he wrote in which he discussed lying about being hired to make elephant costumes in order to get free publicity/cash in on an elephant-training friend coming to visit.

I read a thread at BFF. Dealing with the Myakka Ape.

More on the Myakka Ape (and costumes) can be found in the JREF thread "How long before this becomes a bigfoot sighting?" An idea that didn't occur to me at the time was that "Asian costume" that's supposed to match up with the "skunk ape" is of the Indonesian/Balinese type. I also did a post here in which I linked to a video using a mask that had some similarities to the Myakka Skunk Ape.

And here's an alternate reason for making an orangutan-based creature hoax: Since orangutans are the closest living relative of Gigantopithecus blackii and since Gigantopithecus is suspected by some to be Bigfoot...

Back to the topic, what was the suit that William Morris provided to Patterson made of? Concerning the fur, of course.

He claimed it was made of Dynel.

 

[manofthesea]

My knowledge of special effects comes mostly from research about the subject and building Halloween displays. The majority of my connections in the entertainment industry are on independent side of things and none of them are connected to special effects (unless you could Dfoot and I responding to eachother's posts).



Sure some people would know, but would they tell (especially if they had signed a contract guaranteeing their silence)? There's also the issue that a man suspected of helping create the suit, Janos Prohaska, died in a plane crash in the 70's. This suspicion supported by statements he made against Patty being a costume that blatantly contradict his own work experience (Like saying that it'd be hard to find a big man when he worked with such men on "Star Trek"). Rick Baker's rumor that John Chambers was behind it seems to have complicated the matter. I'd link you to Mark Chorvinsky's investigation on the matter to show you the difficulties he faced in talking to certain people in the industry, but I recall that you "don't do links."

As for the how, Bob Burns says a water bag was used base don his frame-by-frame analysis of the film. Stan Winston says that the fur is fake based on the way the fur looks/its lack of structure.

And let's face it, it's not like the majority of Bigfoot proponents would believe any Hollywood insider who came forward with such details.



Well, he apparently provided some advice, but he didn't create it. Howard Ball should get the bulk of the credit and others might've done touch-up work. It seems to me that Frank Hansen went to different people with different areas of expertise in order to get the exact look he wanted for the Iceman. More on the subject can be found in the JREF thread "The Minnesota Iceman."



Heh, that actually reminds me of something Bill Munns said in part four of his Patty analysis. In it, he discusses how Hollywood makeup men of the day felt threatened by amateur upstarts whose work rivaled/surpassed theirs.



Mr. Morris is still alive, but I think he's probably lying about selling Patterson a suit. Awhile back, I posted a quote from a book he wrote in which he discussed lying about being hired to make elephant costumes in order to get free publicity/cash in on an elephant-training friend coming to visit.



More on the Myakka Ape (and costumes) can be found in the JREF thread "How long before this becomes a bigfoot sighting?" An idea that didn't occur to me at the time was that "Asian costume" that's supposed to match up with the "skunk ape" is of the Indonesian/Balinese type. I also did a post here in which I linked to a video using a mask that had some similarities to the Myakka Skunk Ape.

And here's an alternate reason for making an orangutan-based creature hoax: Since orangutans are the closest living relative of Gigantopithecus blackii and since Gigantopithecus is suspected by some to be Bigfoot...



He claimed it was made of Dynel.

A lot to digest. (thanx).

And I think something for Mr. Munns to address as well.

One more, if you please, who do you consider the most likely 'mime'? Inside the PGF creature.

 

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

One more, if you please, who do you consider the most likely 'mime'? Inside the PGF creature.

I don't have any definite suspects.

 

[tube]

I suspect that every time a special on Bigfoot is broadcast on TV, many people who are new to the subject will turn to the Internet to follow up on such a spectacular subject. While the subject is broad, the vast majority of material on the subject is pro-Bigfoot. Thankfully the JREF forum exists and has supported counterpoint arguments for some time now.

I am distressed by the recent influx of posters who are either mentally disturbed, trying to sell something, or are sock-puppets of banned members. A great deal of pure garbage is now flooding this and other Bigfoot related threads. Consequently, anyone new to the subject who searches the Internet for a skeptical take on Bigfoot who finds this thread will encounter the lowest common denominator of "argument". If I had my way, I would ban these individuals outright, but of course this is not my forum, and I don't make the rules.

Every now and then, some good skeptical content and argument gets presented. Sooner or later, a website dedicated Sasquatch skepticism is bound to crop up, a sort of skeptical counterpoint to the largely advocate based website of Bobbie Short. But until that time, I am doing my part to set various arguments into a coherent, stable site, one which will not get "buried" within a forum now beset by drivel and trolls.

I've added a page on my own site that deals with one of the fundamental arguments of the P&G film; the "inhuman" gait.

http://orgoneresearch.com/does_the_pattersongimlin_film_s.htm