Is U.S. education truly getting worse?

[Chris Haynes]

,,,You can (and will) disbelieve me if you want. Knock yourself out. Likely, though, your "B" in calculus this year would've been at best, a low C in 1960, and that C in 1960 would've come from carrying twice the workload in that class.

Tokie

What high school in 1960 offered calculus?

I know that the high school I went to in my sophomore year did offer calculus to certain seniors (Balboa High School in Balboa, Canal Zone --- it is now closed but was once a Department of Defense school). I would have been one of them if I had been allowed to continue there, but due to being an Army brat I had to leave that district and go to another. One did not offer calculus (it started to the next year or so, Killeen High School which was next to one of the largest military bases in the USA, that town now has more than one high school).

What was really bad was someone I met in college whose high school in a rural area near Minot, ND where her father worked for the Bureau for Indian Affairs did not even offer trigonometry in 1975. (I did graduate from high school a year early, so I did have trig and took calculus in college).

How can you compare those schools to the one my son goes to now? He is in 11th grade and taking AP Calculus A/B. Next year he will take AP Calculus C/D. This means he will have equivalent of a full year of college calculus before graduating from high school. Even Advanced Placement Calculus goes half as fast as college Calculus (AP being a specified curriculum with a nationally administered test in the early Spring).

So tell me, what high school in 1960 offered calculus? How many high schools offered calculus that would allow a student to test out of the first year of college calculus?

Edit to add: Give some real references.

 

[Jeff Corey]

References? Tokie don't need no steenkin' references! He is the Federalist. Tokie is content to flatly state his biased opinion as fact and then squeal LLLLIIIIINNNNNNNNKKKKKKKKSSSSS as his mantra when challenged to offer a shed of data to support his opinion. Too bad. I would prefer to be able to access the data that others use to form their opinions. I just might learn something new.

 

[Tokenconservative]

Of course. This is exactly what we should expect, given that students today have far better access to much larger, more diverse, and better organized information resources than did those in 1960. Not to mention advances in actual education technique, and a lot of other beneficial factors. It's easier for students today to get A's than it was for students in the 60's because students today are smarter and better equipped; they don't have to work as hard to produce the same, or even better quality work. Then of course there's the detrimental effect of all those drugs back in the 60's....


So what? In the 1920's, only the top of the curve made it into school at all. In terms of absolute numbers, and even probably as a percentage of the overall population (not just the enrolled student population), there could be more kids in middle school in Kansas today who could handle that same level of work than there were total middle school students in the 1920's. The average of today's far larger, more diverse and more inclusive student population can be lower, even though the aggregate educational gain may be far, far more.

Ah...more "diverse"...the key. Rainforest math, right?

If Juan has 6 quavas, and the military junta supported by the US forces him to give 3 of them to the soldiers illegally billeted in his mud hut...

And "better organized." Yeah, okay.

Sheesh.

And by cooking the books and saying "there were fewer kids IN middle school so um, they were self-selected to be the brightest!!!"

So what you are saying here is agreeing with me: the curriculum has been dumbed down. Dun't matter WHY, the point is it has.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

What high school in 1960 offered calculus?

I know that the high school I went to in my sophomore year did offer calculus to certain seniors (Balboa High School in Balboa, Canal Zone --- it is now closed but was once a Department of Defense school). I would have been one of them if I had been allowed to continue there, but due to being an Army brat I had to leave that district and go to another. One did not offer calculus (it started to the next year or so, Killeen High School which was next to one of the largest military bases in the USA, that town now has more than one high school).

What was really bad was someone I met in college whose high school in a rural area near Minot, ND where her father worked for the Bureau for Indian Affairs did not even offer trigonometry in 1975. (I did graduate from high school a year early, so I did have trig and took calculus in college).

How can you compare those schools to the one my son goes to now? He is in 11th grade and taking AP Calculus A/B. Next year he will take AP Calculus C/D. This means he will have equivalent of a full year of college calculus before graduating from high school. Even Advanced Placement Calculus goes half as fast as college Calculus (AP being a specified curriculum with a nationally administered test in the early Spring).

So tell me, what high school in 1960 offered calculus? How many high schools offered calculus that would allow a student to test out of the first year of college calculus?

Edit to add: Give some real references.

Most, I would assume since textbooks I have from the 20s and 30s offered it. If you are asking me for a link--LLIIIIIINNNKKKKK!!!--to a list of high schools that offered calculus in 1960, sorry...can't help you there...and that's a stupid request, anyway.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

Just wondering if you've been a victim of this "grade inflation"...

Do you have a citation for this wonderful textbook written in the roaring 20s? I'm a sucker for good literature...

What proportion of kids in rural Kansas actually went to school in 1924? What percentage actually finished middle school let alone high school in 1924?

Have you taken calculus? Given that it has changed little since Leibniz/Newton developed it in the 17th century, could you explain in more detail how a low C in 1960 would be a B in 2007? More partial credit?

Again, have you pondered what your GPA would've been if you had went to school in 1960? Have you suffered because of this supposed "grade inflation" and light workload?

I don't understand this atavistic belief that education was somehow better 30, 40, or 80 years ago. We live in an age of unparalled access to information and our educational system has had to adapt to it. Why should it be the same as 30, 40, or 80 years ago? I envy kids who go to school today; they have access to technology and information that I only wish I had when I went to school in the 70s and 80s. The only thing I would want to change with our education system is that I wish it would place more emphasis on critical thinking rather than rote memorization and regurgitation of fact...

1. Not sure you'd term me a "victim" of it, but yes...in the last two math classes I took, I did NOTHING. Not one bit of in-class work, and no HW. I read throughout both classes for the entire year. I passed each with a "D."

2. Nope, sorry. Sure don't.

3. Um...no idea. So you are saying that because more kids attend school today they are stupider and therefore the curriculum needs to be dumbed down? Hmm...innerestin theory...more = stupider. Do you have some studies to back that up? So, when more kids took harder math and science in the 60s, the kids who eventually went on to help put a man on the moon, because there were more of them, they were stupider? Am I following your reasoning here?

4. I haven't been in a Nazi (Godwin!!!! GODWIN!!!!!) concentration camp either, but I can guess that it was not a nice place. I don't even know what calculus is, but since a physicist I know, and another guy with a math major, told me that "math cannot be taught that way" when I showed them some current texts, I am gonna go with their assessments.

5. Have I suffered? LOL. That's the litmus? No, it permitted me to graduate high school when I should not have. I did far better in college, but the problem there was that employers or grad schools looking at my 3.85 GPA, and someone else's have (if it were today) no way of knowing how much of that GPA is inflated. This is HUGE problem that all the top universities have admitted is a problem (not for them, of course...would never happen there!) but for kids coming in, who have 4.50 GPAs littered with Honors and even AP courses, but need remedial math and English classes.

I didn't say the system was better in the 70s and 80s. It went south begining (esp.) in the mid 60s when leftists began to infiltrate the upper-tiers of it's administration.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

References? Tokie don't need no steenkin' references! He is the Federalist. Tokie is content to flatly state his biased opinion as fact and then squeal LLLLIIIIINNNNNNNNKKKKKKKKSSSSS as his mantra when challenged to offer a shed of data to support his opinion. Too bad. I would prefer to be able to access the data that others use to form their opinions. I just might learn something new.

I only offer sources (never links--LIIIIINKKKSSSSSS!!!--sorry, I read, instead) when it's not common knoweldge.

Grade inflation is common, if unadmitted to, knowledge at all levels of education in America, today. Universities have admitted that they cannot believe the GPAs of incoming freshmen from public (and some private, mostly of the "day school" variety) schools and that it's a huge problem.

Hell, even Doonesbury did a long series about it.

If a lefty like that guy knows it's happening in our universities....

But you believe that if some guy on the 'net doesn't give you a link--LIIIIIINKKKKKKKKK!!!--that then a fact of life must be a lie, if you wish.

Up to you to peel back the moldy layers of ignorance that envelop your mind, not me.

Tokie

 

[Prometheus]

So what you are saying here is agreeing with me: the curriculum has been dumbed down. Dun't matter WHY, the point is it has.

Tokie

Nope. The point is, it's serving more people to greater overall effect. It matters very little how much the top few percentiles are doing because they've got more than enough advantages to get by on their own.

 

[Chris Haynes]

Most, I would assume since textbooks I have from the 20s and 30s offered it. If you are asking me for a link--LLIIIIIINNNKKKKK!!!--to a list of high schools that offered calculus in 1960, sorry...can't help you there...and that's a stupid request, anyway.

Tokie

High school or college textbooks?

By the way the Pre-Calculus textbook my son used last year is available online: http://www.math.washington.edu/~m120/TheBook/TB2006-7.pdf

By the way, did you take Calculus in high school or college?

 

[Kestrel]

High school or college textbooks?

By the way the Pre-Calculus textbook my son used last year is available online: http://www.math.washington.edu/~m120/TheBook/TB2006-7.pdf

By the way, did you take Calculus in high school or college?

My Grandmother taught high school math and science in rural Kansas during the 1930s. Calculus wasn't part of the high school curriculum at that time. It was offered by a few high schools, but still rather uncommon in the late 1960s. Today it's rather common for advanced high school students to take a calculus class.

 

[Chris Haynes]

With a little looking I found this book:
http://books.google.com/books?id=l8kV1sB1t6UC&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=calculus+instruction+high+school+%22history+of+education%22&source=web&ots=jkrBP-wPUu&sig=VP_KQ3wNsMfyh5rUbO30ykHITd4#PPA167,M1 ... with this quote:

In response to a request from the deans of education and engineering to lead a committee to investigate how secondary school mathematics instruction could be changed to guarentee that entering freshman would be able to master calculus, Bebeman became director of the University of Illinois Committee on School Mathematics (UICSM) in 1951.

This tells me that calculus was usually considered to be a college level course in the mid-20th century.

Then there is the existence of this: http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/about.html with several testing sites all over the country. These tests are only for high school students, and were not available in the mid-20th century.

There now seem to be more opportunities for students with high math abilities than there were half a century ago, and even thirty years ago when I was in high school (where Killeen High School had to add a Trig and Intro to Analysis class because of increased demand).

 

[digithead]

1. Not sure you'd term me a "victim" of it, but yes...in the last two math classes I took, I did NOTHING. Not one bit of in-class work, and no HW. I read throughout both classes for the entire year. I passed each with a "D."

You did NOTHING but read throughout both classes for the entire year. Hmm, doesn't sound like you did NOTHING...

2. Nope, sorry. Sure don't.

So you say you have a textbook from 1924 that's better than anything published today but you can't give me the author, title, and publisher (i.e. citation) of said textbook, why?

3. Um...no idea. So you are saying that because more kids attend school today they are stupider and therefore the curriculum needs to be dumbed down? Hmm...innerestin theory...more = stupider. Do you have some studies to back that up? So, when more kids took harder math and science in the 60s, the kids who eventually went on to help put a man on the moon, because there were more of them, they were stupider? Am I following your reasoning here?

No, I said no such thing. I don't believe that the curriculum has been dumbed down nor do I believe that today's children are any dumber than children from 30, 40 or 80 years ago...

Additionally, Few children in rural America in the first half of last century went beyond grammar school. Especially during the depression...

Harder math and more science in the 60s? Really? Yes, I'd like proof rather than a declarative statement on your part. I actually require my students to back up their declarative statements, otherwise I fail them regardless of the grade inflation cabal you speak of...

You do know that the single biggest school entitlement program, the GI bill, occurred prior to 1960 and that a lot these veterans became school teachers and administrators in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, right? Does this mean that the greatest generation is part of your leftist conspiracy to destroy the educational system?

4. I haven't been in a Nazi (Godwin!!!! GODWIN!!!!!) concentration camp either, but I can guess that it was not a nice place. I don't even know what calculus is, but since a physicist I know, and another guy with a math major, told me that "math cannot be taught that way" when I showed them some current texts, I am gonna go with their assessments.

So they're experts in assessing pedagogical methods, too?

And you say you taught math but you don't know calculus? How 'bout algebra or geometry? Arithmetic?

5. Have I suffered? LOL. That's the litmus? No, it permitted me to graduate high school when I should not have. I did far better in college, but the problem there was that employers or grad schools looking at my 3.85 GPA, and someone else's have (if it were today) no way of knowing how much of that GPA is inflated. This is HUGE problem that all the top universities have admitted is a problem (not for them, of course...would never happen there!) but for kids coming in, who have 4.50 GPAs littered with Honors and even AP courses, but need remedial math and English classes.

Which is why universities have placement testing in the first place...

As for huge problems with remedial math and english, where I teach and go to school in Washington state, about 11,000 recent high school grads in 2005-2006 enrolled in baccalaureate institutions. Of these, about 4% needed to take remedial english and a little less than 10% needed to take remedial math. I guess you and I have a different opinion about what constitutes "huge"...

Oh, and here's the link:

http://www.sesrc.wsu.edu/remedial/document/Council_of_Presidents_Letter_05-06.doc

As for junior colleges, it's a little bleaker but that's expected. About 10% of recent Washington state high school grads who enrolled in junior college needed to take remedial reading classes, 17% needed to take remedial writing, and a whopping 46% needed take remedial math. But then these schools have open enrollments and students who start at these schools typically could not get into a baccalaureate institution in the first place...

Oh, and here's the link:

http://www.sbctc.ctc.edu/docs/data/research_reports/resh_06_5_systemsumm.doc

I didn't say the system was better in the 70s and 80s. It went south begining (esp.) in the mid 60s when leftists began to infiltrate the upper-tiers of it's administration.

I'm assuming that when the leftists (whoever this mysterious and evil cadre is) infiltrated the upper tiers of educational administration that it took time for their policies and propaganda to seep fully into the rest of the system. Ergo, the 70s and early 80s should have been better than today based on teacher attrition and turnover...

 

[Chris Haynes]

...And you say you taught math but you don't know calculus? How 'bout algebra or geometry? Arithmetic?
...

Well, I guess that answers my question on whether he took calculus in high school or college: neither. He has never taken calculus.

 

[joobie]

i find it hard to believe anyone who has never taken calculus would teach math* at any but the most backwards of private schools on the planet.



*he has indeed claimed such - in fact he was fired for teaching at too high a level. or so he says.

 

[LostAngeles]

Well, I guess that answers my question on whether he took calculus in high school or college: neither. He has never taken calculus.

i find it hard to believe anyone who has never taken calculus would teach math* at any but the most backwards of private schools on the planet.



*he has indeed claimed such - in fact he was fired for teaching at too high a level. or so he says.

I pointed this out in a thread that was AAHed. He claims he stopped taking math in 8th grade to which I listed a bunch of things that he should know in order to teach math, considering that the Republic of California requires that either you take classes in those areas or be able to answer questions on them on the CSET.

I will also note that I mentioned doing Simpson's Rule and he recognized it as being part of a calculus. Of course, I wasn't actually taking a calculus class (first part of Numerical Analysis) and mentioned Poisson distributions (something he should recognize if he does the stats he claimed in the AAHed thread). I also mentioned Gauss quadrature, but I can't recall doing them in any straight Calculus class. In fact, I checked my text from my college Calc classes (James Stewart 5th edition) and they're optional little bits at the end of some sections.

 

[Jeff Corey]

... No, it permitted me to graduate high school when I should not have...

And you claim to have taught English? It's a good thing that they fired your touchis for your egregious error. It's "graduate from high school", you maroon.

 

[Tokenconservative]

High school or college textbooks?

By the way the Pre-Calculus textbook my son used last year is available online: http://www.math.washington.edu/~m120/TheBook/TB2006-7.pdf

By the way, did you take Calculus in high school or college?

High school...oddly enough, textbooks from the 20s and 30s are not available online...so sorry, no link--LIIIIINNKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!

I am sure someone in the districts where they used to use those books is working on this oversight, as we key.

Sheesh.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

i find it hard to believe anyone who has never taken calculus would teach math* at any but the most backwards of private schools on the planet.



*he has indeed claimed such - in fact he was fired for teaching at too high a level. or so he says.

LOL.

Then you are not very smart or well-informed.

You don't need to have taken ANY higher math to teach grade school math. I have a hard time believing anyone can be this ignorant.

But I guess you are.

I'll just sit here now and wait for you to run to the mods and file your complaint.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

And you claim to have taught English? It's a good thing that they fired your touchis for your egregious error. It's "graduate from high school", you maroon.

Is "touchis" a word? In English? I had to read that three times...I thought you were accusing me of "touching" a kid or something.

Sheesh.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

I pointed this out in a thread that was AAHed. He claims he stopped taking math in 8th grade to which I listed a bunch of things that he should know in order to teach math, considering that the Republic of California requires that either you take classes in those areas or be able to answer questions on them on the CSET.

I will also note that I mentioned doing Simpson's Rule and he recognized it as being part of a calculus. Of course, I wasn't actually taking a calculus class (first part of Numerical Analysis) and mentioned Poisson distributions (something he should recognize if he does the stats he claimed in the AAHed thread). I also mentioned Gauss quadrature, but I can't recall doing them in any straight Calculus class. In fact, I checked my text from my college Calc classes (James Stewart 5th edition) and they're optional little bits at the end of some sections.

Actually, that's the last math class I really remembered. Lately I've been going through some old documents and it appears I took one in 10th grade, too. The docs reminded me that one of the major projects in this 10th grade math class (mid-1970s) was to produce a drawing/collage some such of what we thought "alien" (as in space alien...I think Skylab was in the news at the time) numbers would look like.

I was a big SF reader, and figured they'd just be symbols, like ours...I mean, how could a race using hashmarks for numbers get very far?

The teacher gave me an "F" for the probject.

I don't live in CA, but in my state I had to take a test for math that I think probably went up to early middle school level. I tanked it, but still got the teaching cert!

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

i find it hard to believe anyone who has never taken calculus would teach math* at any but the most backwards of private schools on the planet.

*he has indeed claimed such - in fact he was fired for teaching at too high a level. or so he says.

I both claim that AND say that, as a matter of fact. Are you a government employee? In the Department of Redundacy Dept.?

I was tasked with teaching these 5th graders to adding and subtracting fractions. I went beyond that with as many of them (which was most) who could handle it. Many of them could not even "borrow and carry" (they called it something else that was terribly confusing...I refused to call it that, tho now, no...sorry, I don't remember how my Rainforest Math Teacher's guide termed it...it's been a while).

By the way, one of the biggest problems the district had with me was my telling the "math guru" that two people I showed the required text to, one holding a math degree of some kind, the other a fairly noted physicist, both, independently, agreed "you can't teach math that way," and that, therefore, I would not be using the text. I showed her the homeschool/private school stuff I WOULD be using. I was worried I'd have to perform the Heimlich (sp?...should we make a whole new thread about it if I spelled it wrong?) on her after she swallowed her tongue.

When the 6th grade teachers found out that some of my kids were doing math at the low 7th grade level (according to district standards...this was low 5th grade level by MY standards) they were furious and complained that these kids would be a "problem" in their classes the next year.

The parents of these kids had a ....different view, but who cares what they think, right?

Tokie