Is U.S. education truly getting worse?

[anticonspiracy911]

I love this sort of "teacher reasoning"

So, because things were bad 30 years ago and because those in control of this data have learned how to make it look like it's not getting worse, what we have today is, ipso facto, "good."

Wow.

Tokie

Just provide us your evidence that concludes our education system is at an all-time low.

 

[Tokenconservative]

Just provide us your evidence that concludes our education system is at an all-time low.

Sure, no problem...I can deliver it to you personally...this morning, go outside and look to the east.

The sun should rise in that direction.

No link--LIIIINNNNNKKKKKKKKK!!!!--needed!

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

I categorically disagree with your statement. I believe NCLB was a good idea. I believe it has been sabotaged by state and municipal education boards.

In my opinion, the basic premise behind NCLB is that there are a few very, very BASIC, essential skills that children need, before they graduate from school. The implication is that students need to be literate at the very least, and need to be able to do some basic math - adding, subtracting, dividing, and the like. The problem is that NCLB has no teeth - no one in Washington was masculine enough to actually enumerate those standards. Instead, the actual standards were left to the states to set for themselves, individually. Most states responded in bad faith. Some, for instance, responded by setting artificially low standards, so they wouldn't have to make any effort towards improving anything. Some states responded by manipulating results and playing fast-and-loose with facts, figures, numbers, and classifications of students in their yearly reports. Those were the choices they made. They then blamed the results on the federal act, as if they didn't have a choice, after all, but to respond the way they did.

Bollocks. The state of education in this country does indeed suck mightily; however, your local school board, and your state's education board, are perfectly happy to let it stay that way. Mostly out of laziness. This has nothing to do with some "conspiracy" to "dumb down" American kids, and everything to do with people just not caring.

Bullocks, indeed.

NCLB, like much else in "education" in America is lip-service. Look at any school curriculum....fabulous stuff!

Now see what's actually being TAUGHT....very different.

But the school will CLAIM the curriculum is being followed to the letter!

NCLB has been used by the teachers to stop teaching at all, as they bleat "but in order to meet NCLB, we must 'teach to the test (only)!"

It's been wonderful for teachers who do even less now, than they did before (which wasn't much, usually).

As for proof--PROOOOOOFFFFFFFF!!!!--of how poorly our schools do, just look to international testing where we typically come in behind even most 3rd world nations in math, history, even English!

Tokie

 

[volatile]

Sure, no problem...I can deliver it to you personally...this morning, go outside and look to the east.

The sun should rise in that direction.

No link--LIIIINNNNNKKKKKKKKK!!!!--needed!

Tokie

It is actually possible to back up the claim that the sun rises in the east. See?

Come on, play the game, Tokie. If the tragic state of America's education system is as manifest as the rising of the Sun, it wouldn't take you more than 30 seconds to actually back up what you're saying.

Or are you just making stuff up again?

 

[volatile]

As for proof--PROOOOOOFFFFFFFF!!!!--of how poorly our schools do, just look to international testing where we typically come in behind even most 3rd world nations in math, history, even English!

Back it up?

In any case, how can you measure whether the US system is getting worse by measuring the progress of others? Maybe they're just getting better, quicker?

You need to show that the US system is worse than it was in previous decades. You have manifestly failed to do that, as usual.

 

[Tokenconservative]

Back it up?

In any case, how can you measure whether the US system is getting worse by measuring the progress of others? Maybe they're just getting better, quicker?

You need to show that the US system is worse than it was in previous decades. You have manifestly failed to do that, as usual.

This is the only means by which we can measure this today, and if you want a link to it, go find one.

The reason is the same as how we can no longer trust the NASA/GISS temperature chart that people like you look to as the stone tablets from the mount regarding Global Warming.

The books have been cooked.

You can't compare an "A" in 1960 to one today. They are two entirely diffrent things.

In 1960, that A was most likely earned through hard work.

We cannot say that today.

And this works in the schools and the teachers' unions best intersts if they (you) can say "prove it!! Show how fewer kids got As in 1960 than they do today!!!" The fact that more kids get As today, when we know that the curriculum is at best worthless and that kids come out of high school unable to tell you in which century the American Civil War was fought or unable to determine whether the change they got back at the Starbuck's is accurate, or unable to fill out an application for employment at that Starbuck's, tells us that in fact, something is seriously wrong.

You don't see it that way.

You shriek "links!? LIIINKKKKKSSSSSSS!!!' because it is in your self-interest to continue to believe that by cooking the books, this somehow makes the truth go away.

Tokie

 

[anticonspiracy911]

Sure, no problem...I can deliver it to you personally...this morning, go outside and look to the east.

The sun should rise in that direction.

No link--LIIIINNNNNKKKKKKKKK!!!!--needed!

Tokie

So the kids today think the sun rises in the west, south or north?

You obviously have nothing to say judging by this reply. I ask a simple question and you get all anal about it. I have my doubts about the education system being at an all-time low. People have always been stupid. In fact people from the baby boom generation that I see are just about as dumb as the people of today.

 

[anticonspiracy911]

In fact people from the Great Depression era are quite dumb themselves. Thinking every single colored person in the world are really murderers out to pick pocket you. Or that all forms of music outside of polka are about sex, drugs or violence. Or that electric instruments aren't real instruments playing real notes. Such genius we've got going from other eras.

 

[technoextreme]

In fact people from the Great Depression era are quite dumb themselves. Thinking every single colored person in the world are really murderers out to pick pocket you. Or that all forms of music outside of polka are about sex, drugs or violence. Or that electric instruments aren't real instruments playing real notes. Such genius we've got going from other eras.

Is this sarcasm? I really hope it's sarcasm. Otherwise it makes you look just as dumb as your stereotype.

 

[Kestrel]

And this works in the schools and the teachers' unions best intersts if they (you) can say "prove it!! Show how fewer kids got As in 1960 than they do today!!!" The fact that more kids get As today, when we know that the curriculum is at best worthless and that kids come out of high school unable to tell you in which century the American Civil War was fought or unable to determine whether the change they got back at the Starbuck's is accurate, or unable to fill out an application for employment at that Starbuck's, tells us that in fact, something is seriously wrong.

Quoting a song from the movie "Bye, Bye Birdie", released in 1963:

Why can't they be like we were?
Perfect in every way.
What's the matter with kids today?

 

[bigred]

That's NCAA schools. Not the majority. That's why I specified NCAA in my previous post.

?? Could be wrong but I'm betting the vast majority of U.S. schools ARE NCAA schools, by far. Certainly all or nearly all "major" schools, and quite a few smaller ones as well - so at the very least, going by # students impacted, a very very small percentage are not "NCAA students."

See? Football good. Tiny artsy fartsy schools bad.

Is this sarcasm? I really hope it's sarcasm. Otherwise it makes you look just as dumb as your stereotype.

Or provides more evidence for another troll. Very tedious regardless.

There was a thread elsewhere about who/why to put people on ignore. People who consistently troll or otherwise don't appear able and/or willing to discuss or debate rationally make my list (PS no I am not referring to the person above FYI - that's an isolated comment as far as I know; don't know them to be like that all the time).

Amazingly, most other people who are able/willing yet I disagree with a lot haven't made it, yet.

 

[Jeff Corey]

...Football good. Tiny artsy fartsy schools bad....

Like UC Santa Barbara?

 

[technoextreme]

Or provides more evidence for another troll. Very tedious regardless.

There was a thread elsewhere about who/why to put people on ignore. People who consistently troll or otherwise don't appear able and/or willing to discuss or debate rationally make my list (PS no I am not referring to the person above FYI - that's an isolated comment as far as I know; don't know them to be like that all the time).

Amazingly, most other people who are able/willing yet I disagree with a lot haven't made it, yet.

To be honest I doubt he was really trolling either. I just sort of got irked because all of my granparents who lived through the great depression, and probably listened to Polka music (Im Polish/German). The last thing I would ever consider them is stupid. In fact my Grandma operated machine tools during WWII.

 

[anticonspiracy911]

Is this sarcasm? I really hope it's sarcasm. Otherwise it makes you look just as dumb as your stereotype.

How so?

To be honest I doubt he was really trolling either. I just sort of got irked because all of my granparents who lived through the great depression, and probably listened to Polka music (Im Polish/German). The last thing I would ever consider them is stupid. In fact my Grandma operated machine tools during WWII.

Are you ****ing serious right now?! What?!....No, nevermind. I'm not even going to comment on this inane ********. Forget it. Everyone who lived in the Great Depression era were geniuses. Racism is an intellectual idea. Electric instruments are pseudoinstruments. Polka is the only form of music that speaks outside the realms of sex, drugs and violence. This is just a new level of dumb, and because of this I will no longer discuss on this topic since another moron couldn't even answer a simple question without getting all anal about it. Forget it. You guys obviously have no clue.

Keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not use personal attacks or insults to argue your point.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson

 

[LostAngeles]

...

In 1960, that A was most likely earned through hard work.

...

It's true, you know. My B's last quarter were the result of sitting on my ass, drooling at the boob tube.

...At least, I assume so. My memories are still a bit jumbled. I remember doing lots of calculations... proofs... Simpson's rule... Gauss Quadrature... was that distribution Poisson?...

 

[technoextreme]

This is just a new level of dumb, and because of this I will no longer discuss on this topic since another moron couldn't even answer a simple question without getting all anal about it. Forget it. You guys obviously have no clue.

The problem is that denoting stupidity and racism is really stupid, ignorant, and shows a lack of understanding in history.

 

[Tokenconservative]

It's true, you know. My B's last quarter were the result of sitting on my ass, drooling at the boob tube.

...At least, I assume so. My memories are still a bit jumbled. I remember doing lots of calculations... proofs... Simpson's rule... Gauss Quadrature... was that distribution Poisson?...

Not sure if you are so stupid (oops! I guess I can look for 'nother "complaint" from a mod in my PMs!! Yay!!! Is THIS the one that'll get Tokie banned again!? We can all hope!) that you don't understand what I was saying, or are you just stupid?

The point is, and this has been shown in any number of studies, that it is "easier" to get an "A" (and therefore a "B") today than it was in say, 1960. This is called grade inflation and no...I don't have a link--LIIIINNNKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!! What I do have is a collection of old textbooks (nope...no link--LIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNKKKKKK!!!--to those, either!). I have a 'Standard Text' from 1924, for example that was intended for the middle schools. I've taught from and read current middle school texts from all subject areas, and this thing (the 1924) reads more like something you'd find in the first year of college.

And it was (note the term) standard to kids in grades 7-9 in rural Kansas in 1924.

You can (and will) disbelieve me if you want. Knock yourself out. Likely, though, your "B" in calculus this year would've been at best, a low C in 1960, and that C in 1960 would've come from carrying twice the workload in that class.

Tokie

 

[digithead]

The point is, and this has been shown in any number of studies, that it is "easier" to get an "A" (and therefore a "B") today than it was in say, 1960. This is called grade inflation and no...I don't have a link--LIIIINNNKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!

Just wondering if you've been a victim of this "grade inflation"...

What I do have is a collection of old textbooks (nope...no link--LIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNKKKKKK!!!--to those, either!). I have a 'Standard Text' from 1924, for example that was intended for the middle schools. I've taught from and read current middle school texts from all subject areas, and this thing (the 1924) reads more like something you'd find in the first year of college.

Do you have a citation for this wonderful textbook written in the roaring 20s? I'm a sucker for good literature...

And it was (note the term) standard to kids in grades 7-9 in rural Kansas in 1924.

What proportion of kids in rural Kansas actually went to school in 1924? What percentage actually finished middle school let alone high school in 1924?

You can (and will) disbelieve me if you want. Knock yourself out. Likely, though, your "B" in calculus this year would've been at best, a low C in 1960, and that C in 1960 would've come from carrying twice the workload in that class.

Tokie

Have you taken calculus? Given that it has changed little since Leibniz/Newton developed it in the 17th century, could you explain in more detail how a low C in 1960 would be a B in 2007? More partial credit?

Again, have you pondered what your GPA would've been if you had went to school in 1960? Have you suffered because of this supposed "grade inflation" and light workload?

I don't understand this atavistic belief that education was somehow better 30, 40, or 80 years ago. We live in an age of unparalled access to information and our educational system has had to adapt to it. Why should it be the same as 30, 40, or 80 years ago? I envy kids who go to school today; they have access to technology and information that I only wish I had when I went to school in the 70s and 80s. The only thing I would want to change with our education system is that I wish it would place more emphasis on critical thinking rather than rote memorization and regurgitation of fact...

 

[Prometheus]

....The point is, and this has been shown in any number of studies, that it is "easier" to get an "A" (and therefore a "B") today than it was in say, 1960....

Of course. This is exactly what we should expect, given that students today have far better access to much larger, more diverse, and better organized information resources than did those in 1960. Not to mention advances in actual education technique, and a lot of other beneficial factors. It's easier for students today to get A's than it was for students in the 60's because students today are smarter and better equipped; they don't have to work as hard to produce the same, or even better quality work. Then of course there's the detrimental effect of all those drugs back in the 60's....

I have a 'Standard Text' from 1924, for example that was intended for the middle schools. I've taught from and read current middle school texts from all subject areas, and this thing (the 1924) reads more like something you'd find in the first year of college.

And it was (note the term) standard to kids in grades 7-9 in rural Kansas in 1924.

So what? In the 1920's, only the top of the curve made it into school at all. In terms of absolute numbers, and even probably as a percentage of the overall population (not just the enrolled student population), there could be more kids in middle school in Kansas today who could handle that same level of work than there were total middle school students in the 1920's. The average of today's far larger, more diverse and more inclusive student population can be lower, even though the aggregate educational gain may be far, far more.

 

[LostAngeles]

Not sure if you are so stupid (oops! I guess I can look for 'nother "complaint" from a mod in my PMs!! Yay!!! Is THIS the one that'll get Tokie banned again!? We can all hope!) that you don't understand what I was saying, or are you just stupid?

The point is, and this has been shown in any number of studies, that it is "easier" to get an "A" (and therefore a "B") today than it was in say, 1960. This is called grade inflation and no...I don't have a link--LIIIINNNKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!! What I do have is a collection of old textbooks (nope...no link--LIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNKKKKKK!!!--to those, either!). I have a 'Standard Text' from 1924, for example that was intended for the middle schools. I've taught from and read current middle school texts from all subject areas, and this thing (the 1924) reads more like something you'd find in the first year of college.

And it was (note the term) standard to kids in grades 7-9 in rural Kansas in 1924.

You can (and will) disbelieve me if you want. Knock yourself out. Likely, though, your "B" in calculus this year would've been at best, a low C in 1960, and that C in 1960 would've come from carrying twice the workload in that class.

Tokie

I don't generally don't report posts.

I'm also smart enough to not take some random person's word on something. Do you expect that we'll automatically agree with everything you claim without any kind of corroborating evidence? Wouldn't that be... stupid?

Also, I didn't take Calculus this quarter. Thanks for playing.

You're smart, perhaps you can tell me what this says?