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Bill O'Reilly

I think you misunderstand.

In the US, the Libertarians (as opposed to the libertarians) are right-wing, speaking economically. The libertarians, on the other hand, are right-wing, centrist, and left-wing, but always anti-authoritarian. I have no problem with the second; the first, in my carefully considered opinion, has little to do with real libertarianism, because it ignores a large and important source of authority: money. I am a left-wing libertarian; make of that what you will. I see being economically left, i.e. collectivist, as a separate thing from being anti-authoritarian; it's not my expectation that we are mature enough in general to be collectivist without being authoritarian, so I must shape my opinion to reality and support those who are as left as I have the opportunity to vote for, without being so authoritarian that they raise my hackles.

I consider Libertarianism to be essentially ignorant, because it ignores the power of money, and therefore succumbs to the very same authority it professes to object to. The people who have that source of power would need to be Libertarian as well, in order for it to work, and they are not; in fact, they are primarily authoritarian, as even the briefest survey of history by all but the most biased observer will show. It is not, in fact, in their interest to be anything else, and for this reason Libertarianism can never work. Small-l libertarianism, on the other hand, is a reasonable position for just about anyone, rich or poor, to take, and is to their benefit either way. It can never be fully achieved unless people become much more mature than they are now, but it is a goal to be striven toward.

What I find is that many Libertarians think the only way to be libertarian is their way, and I object to that strongly. I think there is ample evidence to suggest that there are other ways, and further evidence to suggest that Libertarianism is not the best, or even a, way to achieve liberty- which is, after all, the goal of libertarianism.

So if you accuse me of not being a Libertarian, I will confirm it; but if you accuse me of not being a libertarian, I will deny it.

If you are politically sophisticated, you will recognize a libertarian, left stance as anarchism. Not the anarchism of rebellious adolescents who want mommy and daddy to stop telling them what to do, but the mature anarchism of "no rulers, not no rules." Examination of how most people behave will rapidly convince one that it is difficult to get to such a state; only twice that I am aware of in modern history have humans even approached it, once in Spain prior to Franco, and once in Argentina in the last decade. Neither was in any way perfect, though the Spanish came closer than anyone has before or since. Furthermore, the efficiency of action of a group who follow the instructions of those among them best equipped to understand how to accomplish a task is undeniable, so perfect absence of authority is unachievable in the real world; absence of authority that is not limited is the best we can ever hope for.

Tyranny by those in power must be controlled; so too, the tyranny of the majority. Limits must be placed on power at all times to ensure liberty. There is a country in which, at least in theory, such limits exist; it is not the only such, but it was one of the first. It has such limits written into its most important and overriding law, its Constitution, which directs the form and details of its government. I am pleased to live in that country; it is, as far as I can see, as close as one can get to true anarchy in this world at this time. Imperfect as it may be, it's as close as I can get to my ideal. My best course of action, IMHO, is to remain a citizen of that country, and work to enhance my liberty along with everyone else's, and work also to oppose any diminution of that liberty, whether by the populace or by those currently in power.

So when you say it is "unnecessary," perhaps you do not understand what I seek to accomplish, and perhaps if you did understand it, you might disagree less or even not at all. But to do that, you must first understand; and that, it is clear, you do not. Perhaps this will help. Perhaps not. Time will tell.

As far as Billo Lielly goes, his authoritarian agenda (he obviously enjoys exercising the power he has as a result of popular acclaim by those who have not considered the ultimate goal of those he supports, which is not their liberty) makes me despise him; the rest is window dressing. Is he consciously aware of the goals of those he supports? Immaterial; he is their tool whether he realizes it or not. And he is well-paid for it, in both money and power.

When a known Libertarian supports someone who is as authoritarian as O'Lielly, I cannot help but note that the individual seems more dedicated to right-wingness than to libertarianism, and considering the name of the party, that seems to me to be either stupid or disingenuous. When I observe that this opinion seems not uncommon, and so note, it appears that you consider this an attack; if so, it is more one against those who profess to be Libertarians than against Libertarianism itself, though as I have stated above I have no love for Libertarianism.

And as far as topicality goes, well, it seems that supporting Billo Lielly might not necessarily be entirely, well, Libertarian. Perhaps you think differently, though perhaps not.

Sure.

I was expecting a long post, but not THAT monster. Dear lord, what you have created?

It's alive, it's alive, it's aliiiiiiive!

Anyways, I decided (in my infinite wisdom), to give you a pass. This time. ;)
 
I was expecting a long post, but not THAT monster. Dear lord, what you have created?

It's alive, it's alive, it's aliiiiiiive!
You asked.

:D

Anyways, I decided (in my infinite wisdom), to give you a pass. This time. ;)
Oh, I figured you would, but you asked a legitimate question, and it deserved a proper answer. I had time to give one. There you have it.
 
Jeez, what's it take with you people?

Does he need to eat babies and talk in the theater?

He's done nice things. Such as gone after The Red Cross and United Way for failing to properly administer funds for 9/11, criticized the Swift Boat people, supported civil unions for gays and lesbians...and has gone after all sex offenders, except for himself...told girls not to take any sexual harassment from boys...
 
Yea, I saw the interview and read the transcript. Given that she's being asked about her dreamworld, I don't hold her statements against her or would say she's intolerant based on that interview. What I understood is that she's saying Jews would be happier if they were Christians, because then their sins would have been forgiven, they don't have to be so obedient to get a chance not to end up in hell etc. I didn't like Deutsch's approach of making it an evil anti-semitic statement out of it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301216,00.html For anyone interested.
Colter was saying her religion trumps all others. That does insult some people. Whether or not you agree it should insult them doesn't change the fact it does insult them. Seems like your opinion vs their opinion. How would we judge in such a case whose opinion was correct?
 
Up to three cents now:

After a LOT of O'Reilly viewing I have come to the conclusion that he really and truly believes what he's saying. I do not think that he is a "lying liar" as per Franken, I really think he's been so heavily socialized as a "true conservative" that he really does believe the things his detractors will characterize as "lies".

Now - this "defense" of O'Reilly doesn't change the fact he's wrong on a whole host of issues, or the fact that he's arrogant and vain - it just means hes so far gone down the path of conservative socialization that he's not even capable of the kind of objectivity he thinks he possesses. He's always harping back to the "fair and balanced" meme - and to him, I guess it feels that way - but to the real world, his "fair and balanced" is a little twisted..;)
We think pathological liars probably do believe what they are saying. That doesn't make them any less of a liar. There is a difference in just being mistaken, which is I think what you are considering. One isn't a liar simply because one is wrong. But when you start changing your own history, it no longer meets the label of simple mistake. Now you are talking fabrication and that is considered to be a type of lying regardless of what the fabricator believes about his stories.

This isn't about claiming to be fair and balanced when you are not, BTW. It's about claiming things like BillO single handedly started a boycott of French goods which threatened their economy. :rolleyes: It's about implying you were a combatant in the Falklands war when you were there as a reporter. You know, little things.
 
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To make this clear: I don't know anything else about Ann Coulter than seen in the interview plus a couple silly short clips on youtube, ....
Well there's your problem right there. Coulter makes her living saying the most rude vile things about anyone and everyone who isn't a right wing Christian extremist.
 
We think pathological liars probably do believe what they are saying. That doesn't make them any less of a liar. There is a difference in just being mistaken, which is I think what you are considering. One isn't a liar simply because one is wrong. But when you start changing your own history, it no longer meets the label of simple mistake. Now you are talking fabrication and that is considered to be a type of lying regardless of what the fabricator believes about his stories.

This isn't about claiming to be fair and balanced when you are not, BTW. It's about claiming things like BillO single handedly started a boycott of French goods which threatened their economy. :rolleyes:
What about the DAMNED PEABODY?!?!

:o
 
He's a sex offender?
Yes, did you miss the posts on his phone sex abuse of a producer which BillO had to pay handsomely for? Unwanted dirty phone calls might be mild on the abuse scale, but they are sexual harassment and as such are considered abuse nonetheless.
 
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Yes, did you miss the posts on his phone sex abuse of a producer which BillO had to pay handsomely for? Unwanted dirty phone calls might be mild on the abuse scale, but they are sexual harassment and as such are considered abuse nonetheless.
Who else is going to protect you from those evil secular progressives?
 
Makes for quite the interesting read there, Upchurch. I love the part on page 11-12 of the complaint where O'Reilly spouts his typical ideas of grandeur about his power to destroy people's careers and their lives. Al Frankin probably got quite the chuckle out of the reference to him there.
 
Colter was saying her religion trumps all others. That does insult some people. Whether or not you agree it should insult them doesn't change the fact it does insult them. Seems like your opinion vs their opinion. How would we judge in such a case whose opinion was correct?

It's not about whether it's offensive or not, that she certainly was to many, otherwise it wouldn't have made so much wind. It's about whether it's anti-Semitic and hateful. I don't know if that assumption alone bears any real weight over there, but here in Germany, when you get called an anti-Semite for whatever reason in public even if it's not true, you're like the evil in person and easily get avoided by anyone and kept being labelled as one, just to silent you and that part, I don't like.

Well there's your problem right there. Coulter makes her living saying the most rude vile things about anyone and everyone who isn't a right wing Christian extremist.

I noticed that and well, I haven't seen much about her but controversy sells. ;) I might watch and read some more of her, but then again, I'm not that interested in doing that from all I hear about her heh.

Now, if you don't mind, I gotta call this chick from work and discuss the Caribbean shower fantasies with her :eek: :D
 
It's not about whether it's offensive or not, that she certainly was to many, otherwise it wouldn't have made so much wind. It's about whether it's anti-Semitic and hateful. I don't know if that assumption alone bears any real weight over there, but here in Germany, when you get called an anti-Semite for whatever reason in public even if it's not true, you're like the evil in person and easily get avoided by anyone and kept being labelled as one, just to silent you and that part, I don't like.

Oh yeah, it carries real weight in America. It's not an unshakable albatross around someone's neck in every circumstance but it certainly can be- just ask Mel Gibson.
 
We think pathological liars probably do believe what they are saying. That doesn't make them any less of a liar. There is a difference in just being mistaken, which is I think what you are considering. One isn't a liar simply because one is wrong. But when you start changing your own history, it no longer meets the label of simple mistake. Now you are talking fabrication and that is considered to be a type of lying regardless of what the fabricator believes about his stories.

This isn't about claiming to be fair and balanced when you are not, BTW. It's about claiming things like BillO single handedly started a boycott of French goods which threatened their economy. :rolleyes: It's about implying you were a combatant in the Falklands war when you were there as a reporter. You know, little things.

Ya - thanks for drawing that out a bit for me... What I really wanted to say was that Oreilly is not a "conscious fabricator" - I believe what appear to be "fabrications" to us - to him - make perfect sense. He lives in a self-justifying universe.

Not sure if you are familiar with the work of Thomas Frank, but this is a pretty great little talk delivered by him, getting into the mindset of people like Oreilly and his audience, you know, the people that look around them and see something disagreeable and say to themselves:

"Liberals did this..."

 
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It is, of course, an outright lie to suggest that O'Reilly claimed to be a combatant in the Falklands War. No leftist worries about such trivial details when there's smearing to be done.
 
It is, of course, an outright lie to suggest that O'Reilly claimed to be a combatant in the Falklands War. No leftist worries about such trivial details when there's smearing to be done.

Please don't tell me that you're going to suggest that anyone has to work hard to "smear" Bill O'Reilly.

How far are you going to be willing to defend the guy and his statements?
 
Did anyone put this one up yet? Olberman on O'Reilly having Fox security call and harass people who call in and say stuff O'Reilly doesn't like. (The sound and picture don't line up all the way through)

 
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