Norman Mineta Testimony

[jhunter1163]

How old is Norman Mineta? I mean, how old is he? I can tell you that Christopher Kojm, former senior counsel to the 9/11 Commission tap danced around this question. When a twoofer ambushed Mineta at a dinner recently, Mineta didn't have the slightest clue that he plays a major role in a raging internet controversy. If you asked him if he understood that his testimony states that Dick Cheney confessed to participating in a heinous, unprecedented crime, he'd tell you that you were nuts. I guess he can't be senile.

Mineta turned 76 last week.

 

[twinstead]

Sorry to disappoint you twinstead but my only fantasy involves women and this subject certainly couldn't be farther from that subject.

C where are you?

MM

LOL no, that just means we have only one thing in common. What we don't have in common is that whole 911 inside job thingy

 

[PhantomWolf]

On a spectacular day like 9/11 I don't think even a "senior moment' would explain such a time discrepancy.

Perhaps then you need to talk to people that were there. They say things like this:

I wish I had recorded a tape after that day, never thought about it. I tried three days later to build a timeline, and I never could, it was just too much information, it was like information overload. -- Cheap Shot (Boston ATC)

It's hard I know to believe that Cheney might have been fibbing.

Except it's not just Cheney's version vs Mineta's. For Mineta to have his time right then not only much Cheney be wrong, but so too the Secret Service logs (which dicuss Cheney being taken to a underground hallway for protection at around 9:30am when the first reports of a unidentified aircraft came through), the Whitehouse phone logs (which showed when the President and Vice President discussed the shoot down order), the news reporting of the Whitehouse evacuation (which reported people running from the white house and nearby buildings at 9:45am, 25 mintes after Mineta claims it happened), and the testimony of all the others that were there, including Mrs Cheney (who arrived at 9:50am, yet whom Mineta said was there before he arrived at 9:20am) and the officer who was speaking to Cheney. Either everyone else in that room at the time is lying, or Mineta got the time wrong. Which is more likely?

 

[twinstead]

Which is more likely?

To a CT? Why it's the one that supports his position, of course.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

On a spectacular day like 9/11 I don't think even a "senior moment' would explain such a time discrepancy.

It's hard I know to believe that Cheney might have been fibbing.

MM

You seem to think that in traumatic events that things are more memorable or that people have better recollections. That is 100% false. The exact opposite is true. In such situations, people are more prone to remember things incorrectly. It's hard to believe that you would be desperate to believe in a fantasy....

 

[CurtC]

You seem to think that in traumatic events that things are more memorable or that people have better recollections. That is 100% false.

Right. Our knowledge of how memories work shows that the more times a memory is recalled, the less reliable it is. A memory of an event that hasn't been recalled since the event is more likely to be accurate than one you recall often, because every time you recall it, what gets put back in your memory is mixed with today's re-interpretation of the memory.

 

[TerryUK]

... the news reporting of the Whitehouse evacuation (which reported people running from the white house and nearby buildings at 9:45am, 25 mintes after Mineta claims it happened),

Not true.

According to a CNN reporter at the scene, the evacuation of the WH was already occurring at 0920 - which is much earlier that what you claim.
This, of course means that, time-wise, Mineta was correct when he describes the evacuation.

and the officer who was speaking to Cheney.

Can you say who this was, and what he said?

Remember that a few days after 9/11, Cheney himself stated that he was in the bunker before getting word that the Pentagon was hit at 0937 (there's a transcript but I haven't got the link here).
By the time of his testimony to the the Commission, his story had changed to make him arriving at the bunker about 0958.

It's very likely that Mineta was there at about 0925, as he stated.

 

[pomeroo]

On a spectacular day like 9/11 I don't think even a "senior moment' would explain such a time discrepancy.

It's hard I know to believe that Cheney might have been fibbing.

MM

You have a reputation for being one of the more, let us say, confused fantasists, but here you have no idea of what you're claiming. Everyone present heard Cheney tell the military aide that "the orders" still stand. Now, either he is stating something perfectly normal, i.e., the shootdown order he had just received from Bush stands, or he is announcing publicly that a hijacked plane will be allowed to crash into a government building.
Perhaps if you read the previous sentence out loud a few times, it might start to sink in. There is nothing for him to "fib" about. There is a set of orders. On Earth, they are the shootdown orders; in your alternate reality, they are orders to allow a commercial airliner to to be flown into the Capitol or the White House. Now, if they are the former, there is no story. If they are the latter, it is the biggest story in the history of journalism.

Again, I ask you to explain why no news outlet found a story in this incident. Then, I ask you to explain why the members of the 9/11 Commission didn't find anything of interest in Cheney's astounding admission of guilt. Finally, I ask you to explain why Norman Mineta doesn't understand what this conspiracy business is all about.

"Secretary Mineta, You do understand that you are stating that Vice President Cheney admitted his complicity in treason and mass murder?"

"Gee, I hope I didn't get anybody in trouble."

Why is this dialogue imaginary?

 

[pomeroo]

Not true.

According to a CNN reporter at the scene, the evacuation of the WH was already occurring at 0920 - which is much earlier that what you claim.
This, of course means that, time-wise, Mineta was correct when he describes the evacuation.



Can you say who this was, and what he said?

Remember that a few days after 9/11, Cheney himself stated that he was in the bunker before getting word that the Pentagon was hit at 0937 (there's a transcript but I haven't got the link here).
By the time of his testimony to the the Commission, his story had changed to make him arriving at the bunker about 0958.

It's very likely that Mineta was there at about 0925, as he stated.

No, it is impossible that Mineta was there at about 0925.

 

[pomeroo]

I guess it's time to trot out Mike Williams's explanation of this silly non-controversy for--what?--the sixth or seventh time:

<< Why did the commission discount Mineta's testimony to such an extent that it wasn't even deemed worthy of a mention in the book? >>

The CTs would say because they were covering it up. Others might say because they thought it was incorrect. I've not done a piece on this yet because I want to present something more definitive than an opinion, but if you want some debating thoughts then maybe I can offer a little help. For example:

CT: blah blah... Mineta... Cheney... must have been a shootdown order... smoking gun.

You: But consider this CNN story:
After the planes struck the twin towers, a third took a chunk out of the Pentagon. Cheney then heard a report that a plane over Pennsylvania was heading for Washington. A military assistant asked Cheney twice for authority to shoot it down.
"The vice president said yes again," remembered Josh Bolton, deputy White House chief of staff. "And the aide then asked a third time. He said, 'Just confirming, sir, authority to engage?' And the vice president -- his voice got a little annoyed then -- said, 'I said yes.'"
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/11/ar911.king.cheney/

Sounds very like the story Mineta told, except they're talking about Flight 93.

CT: Ha! But Mineta said this was happening at 9:26! Are you saying he can't tell the time?

You: Well, let's see what he said happened before this.

While Mr. Flaherty was briefing me, I watched as a large commercial jet flew into the second tower of the World Trade Center. At this point things began to happen quickly. I once more returned to the conference room and informed the minister of what had happened and ended the meeting. I received a telephone call from the CEO of United Airlines, Jack Goodman, telling me that one of United's flights was missing. I then called Don Carty, the CEO of American Airlines, and asked him to see if American Airlines could account for all of its aircraft. Mr. Flaherty reported to me that Jane Garvey had phoned to report that the CEO of Delta Airlines had called the FAA and said it could not yet account for all of its aircraft.

During this time, my office activated the Department of Transportation's crisis management center, which was located on the 8th floor at that time of the Department of Transportation headquarters, and provides for senior DOT personnel to conduct surge operations in a coordinated manner.
By this time, my office had contacted the White House. A brief moment later, the White House called my chief of staff and asked if I could come to the White House and operate from that location. I decided that, given the nature of the attack and the request, that I should be at the White House directly providing the president and the vice president with information.
When I got to the White House, it was being evacuated. I met briefly with Richard Clark, a National Security Council staff member, who had no new information. Then the Secret Service escorted me down to the Presidential Emergency Operations Center, otherwise known as the PEOC. I established contact on two lines, one with my chief of staff at the Department of Transportation, and the second with Monty Belger, the acting deputy administrator of the FAA, and Jane Garvey, both of whom were in the FAA operations center. And as the minutes passed, the developing picture from air traffic control towers and radar screens became increasingly more alarming. Some aircraft could not be contacted. While on a normal day that may be just a communications snafu, we were faced with trying to quickly sort out minor problems from significant threats. We did not know how many more attacks might be in progress.
http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing2/9-11Commission_Hearing_2003-05-23.htm

So Mineta saw the second impact and presumably spent a moment or two taking that in.

Then he returned to the conference room, told his visitor what had happened and ended his meeting.

Then he received a call from United Airlines.

Then he made a call to American Airlines.

Then he received information from Mr Flaherty.

Then he heard he had to go to the White House.

Then he left his building, got into his car, drove to the White House, went through security.

Then he went to the situation room for a quick word with Richard Clarke.

Then he was escorted to the PEOC.

Then he established two phone links.

And all this between, what, 9:03 and 9:26? That's quick work.

CT: But still possible.

You: Yes, but take a closer look at the above story, especially this: "When I got to the White House, it was being evacuated". When was the White House evacuated?

CT: Uh...

You: Let me help you: it didn't happen until 9:45 am (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&day_of_9/11=aa77). Yet Mineta's timeline puts this around 9:20. How is that possible?

CT: Maybe he was mistaken.

You: So you believe him absolutely on the time, and you trust his word 100% on the identification of Flight 77 (even though it appears from the testimony that this was just an assumption made after the fact). But you ignore his word on the White House being evacuated when he arrived, which would put it later. And you ignore the similarities between his account and someone else's, also later, but where they're talking about Flight 93. How are you deciding what's true and what isn't? Just the bits that match up with what you want to believe?

....etc etc etc.

You get the picture. The "Pentagon being evacuated" comment alone is enough to raise a question over Mineta's timeline, and as soon as the CTs start making excuses for that, it looks like they're picking and choosing the bits of testimony they want.

Mike Williams

 

[TerryUK]

I guess it's time to trot out Mike Williams's explanation of this silly non-controversy for--what?--the sixth or seventh time:

Sorry, that's no good.

Williams' explanation doesn't work because it relies on the timing of the White House evacuation, and he's got that wrong.

Williams says:"[the evacuation] didn't happen until 9:45 am, yet Mineta's timeline puts this around 9:20. How is that possible?

The answer is that the White house evactuation started much earlier.

According to CNN's John King, who was there at the time, the evacuation had started by 9.20 am, which agrees with Mineta's timing.


JOHN KING, CNN Senior WHITE HOUSE CORRESP. (by phone, aired live at 0952 ET) :
[/i] "Just moments ago - they started slowly evacuating the White House about 30 minutes ago - and then in the last five minutes, people have come running out of the White House and the old executive office building, which is the office building right directly across from the White House..."

Here's CNN'sTranscript.

There's evidence from other witnesses which agrees with Mineta's timeline.

So I repeat, it's very likely that Mineta was at the PEOC at 0925 as he stated.


Did you not know that, Pomeroo?
I think you did...

 

[sleahead]

According to CNN's John King, who was there at the time, the evacuation had started by 9.20 am, which agrees with Mineta's timing.

NBC's Bobb Kerr was there too. Evacuation happened after the Pentagon was hit. Mineta's times are wrong.

Conversation starts at 09.55


Anchor: Alright, Nick, thank you ver much. We're going to move a couple of miles away from you right now to the White House, where Bob Kerr is standing by, and Bob, we understand the White House has been evacuated now.

Bob Kerr: That's true. It is utterly surreal. As soon as news came of the Pentagon incident, we were rather forcefully removed removed from the White House. The scene was one of administrators, cooks, whatever, running at fairly high speed all the way out of the building through the top gates. Then we huddled for a while in Lafayette Park across the street and we have been moved now from there a block or so away. The offices along Jackson Place, which are across the street from the White House and adjacent to Lafayette Park, also have been evacuated.

[He then talks about the appearence of the large white plane and is asked about when GW Bush will return to the White House]


He then continues:

Bob Kerr:The reason I said that it was so surreal, was that within about twenty minutes ago, they were still conducting tours. You had hordes of tourists and others still in the White House on tour, lining up outside to get in. There seem to be absolutely no unusual activity outside the White House until word came of the incident at the Pentagon. So it's been quite a dramtaic shift here.

 

[MikeW]

Sorry, that's no good.

Williams' explanation doesn't work because it relies on the timing of the White House evacuation, and he's got that wrong.

Have I?

From your quote:

Just moments ago - they started slowly evacuating the White House about 30 minutes ago - and then in the last five minutes, people have come running out of the White House and the old executive office building

Note that there is no confirmation from later that an order to evacuate was made that early. This is simply assumed to be true because it's convenient. Still, look at what it says: people only came running out at 9:52 less around 5 minutes, so roughly 9:47.

Now let's read Mineta's account:

I grabbed some manuals and some papers, went down to the car, and we went over to the White House. As we went in West Executive Drive, people pouring out of the Executive Office building, people running out of the White House, and I said to my driver and security guy, "Is there something wrong with this picture? We are driving in, and everybody else is running away."
http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/min0int-8

So your source for the evacuation puts people leaving the Executive Office and White House en masse, running, at 9:47. Mineta agrees well with the scene but puts this before 9:20. Thanks for proving my point - he has the wrong time.

 

[pomeroo]

Have I?

From your quote:



Note that there is no confirmation from later that an order to evacuate was made that early. This is simply assumed to be true because it's convenient. Still, look at what it says: people only came running out at 9:52 less around 5 minutes, so roughly 9:47.

Now let's read Mineta's account:



So your source for the evacuation puts people leaving the Executive Office and White House en masse, running, at 9:47. Mineta agrees well with the scene but puts this before 9:20. Thanks for proving my point - he has the wrong time.

Like the announcer on those soccer matches says: G-O-O-O-O-O-A-L !!!!

 

[TerryUK]

So your source for the evacuation puts people leaving the Executive Office and White House en masse, running, at 9:47. Mineta agrees well with the scene but puts this before 9:20. Thanks for proving my point - he has the wrong time.

No, the evidence suggests otherwise...

First of all, I notice that what you are using here is not from Mineta's testimony under oath, but merely an interview for the 'American Academy of Achievement'.
This interview is about his life, and although factual, it is also somewhat colourful, and Mineta will be aware that it has to be 'interesting'.
So it's understandable that Mineta adds a little flavour... do you imagine him really saying to his driver "Is there something wrong with this picture? We are driving in, and everybody else is running away." ?

Now, I notice you don't quote anything further from this interview of Mineta. Why not?

Well, according to your timeline, it's known at this point that the Pentagon has been hit at least 10 minutes earlier, so let's look what Mineta says happens next - from his interview which you snipped :

"So I went into the White House and someone said, "You have to be briefed by Dick Clark in the Situation Room." So I went in there, he talked to me for four or five minutes, and he said, "You have got to go to the PEOC." I said, "What's the PEOC?" He said, "That's the Presidential Emergency Operations Center." I said, "I don't know where that is or what it is." There was a Secret Service agent standing there, says, "I will take you." Well, it's that bunker that's way under the White House."

So why did Dick Clark, the counter terrorism chief, NOT mention to Mineta that the Pentagon has been attacked?
In the situation room, for four or five minutes and no mention of the attack on the Pentagon? which - according to you - was known to have happened 10 mins. before Mineta arrived + 5 mins. talk with Clark = 15 minutes earlier.

So, it's clear that the Pentagon had not yet been hit.

There is no reason to think that Mineta's timeline is incorrect, he was most likely to be in the PEOC well before the Pentagon was hit, and so was Cheney.

 

[pomeroo]

No, the evidence suggests otherwise...

The evidence is the last thing in the world that interests you. You are a conspiracy liar, remember?

So, it's clear that the Pentagon had not yet been hit.

Actually, it's clear now that the Pentagon had been hit.

There is no reason to think that Mineta's timeline is incorrect, he was most likely to be in the PEOC well before the Pentagon was hit, and so was Cheney.

The reason that Mineta's timeline was rejected as unworthy for inclusion in the 9/11 Commission's final report is that it was contradicted by everyone else's timeline and the phone logs. You are clinging to a fantasy. Cheney did not confess publicly to an unprecedented crime. Someone with a triple-digit IQ would have noticed.

 

[pomeroo]

No, the evidence suggests otherwise...

First of all, I notice that what you are using here is not from Mineta's testimony under oath, but merely an interview for the 'American Academy of Achievement'.
This interview is about his life, and although factual, it is also somewhat colourful, and Mineta will be aware that it has to be 'interesting'.
So it's understandable that Mineta adds a little flavour... do you imagine him really saying to his driver "Is there something wrong with this picture? We are driving in, and everybody else is running away." ?

Now, I notice you don't quote anything further from this interview of Mineta. Why not?

Well, according to your timeline, it's known at this point that the Pentagon has been hit at least 10 minutes earlier, so let's look what Mineta says happens next - from his interview which you snipped :

"So I went into the White House and someone said, "You have to be briefed by Dick Clark in the Situation Room." So I went in there, he talked to me for four or five minutes, and he said, "You have got to go to the PEOC." I said, "What's the PEOC?" He said, "That's the Presidential Emergency Operations Center." I said, "I don't know where that is or what it is." There was a Secret Service agent standing there, says, "I will take you." Well, it's that bunker that's way under the White House."

So why did Dick Clark, the counter terrorism chief, NOT mention to Mineta that the Pentagon has been attacked?
In the situation room, for four or five minutes and no mention of the attack on the Pentagon? which - according to you - was known to have happened 10 mins. before Mineta arrived + 5 mins. talk with Clark = 15 minutes earlier.

So, it's clear that the Pentagon had not yet been hit.

There is no reason to think that Mineta's timeline is incorrect, he was most likely to be in the PEOC well before the Pentagon was hit, and so was Cheney.

Really, you gotta love it that the liars' smoking gun is a cabinet member who doesn't know what the PEOC is. Somehow, it just seems right.

 

[TerryUK]

The evidence is the last thing in the world that interests you. You are a conspiracy liar, remember?

As a matter of fact, I think this applies more to you pomeroo, not me.
I am merely presenting evidence, you are denying it exists.


By the way, I just listened to the voice recording of counter-terrorism 'czar' Dick Clark describing the events immediately after the TT were hit.

He describes how he asks Mineta to come through to the Situation room. They talk, and then Clark suggests that Mineta joins the Vice President in the PEOC.
After describing a few other actions, Clark then states "it was now nine twenty-eight"

0928ET

Is Clark a liar ? No, I don't think so.

 

[TerryUK]

By the way, I just listened to the voice recording of counter-terrorism 'czar' Dick Clark describing the events immediately after the TT were hit.

He describes how he asks Mineta to come through to the Situation room. They talk, and then Clark suggests that Mineta joins the Vice President in the PEOC.
After describing a few other actions, Clark then states "it was now nine twenty-eight"

0928ET

Is Clark a liar ? No, I don't think so.

Here is the audio Clark3.mp3

Relevant parts at 1min. 54secs: "Mineta called in"

and 3min. 32secs: "it was now 09.28 "

 

[gumboot]

As a matter of fact, I think this applies more to you pomeroo, not me.
I am merely presenting evidence, you are denying it exists.


By the way, I just listened to the voice recording of counter-terrorism 'czar' Dick Clark describing the events immediately after the TT were hit.

He describes how he asks Mineta to come through to the Situation room. They talk, and then Clark suggests that Mineta joins the Vice President in the PEOC.
After describing a few other actions, Clark then states "it was now nine twenty-eight"

0928ET

Is Clark a liar ? No, I don't think so.

Clark's 9/11 timeline is also really really inaccurate.

-Gumboot