Norman Mineta Testimony

[pomeroo]

You keep saying that, but I'm only interested in the evidence.

There is little or no verifiable evidence to prove the 9/11 Commission report, regarding Cheney's timeline.

If there is please show me.

Again--you are a conspiracy liar. You have absolutely no interest in evidence.

You refer to "Cheney's timeline." Please explain. A timeline was established by the 9/11 Commission, using testimonies and phone logs. This timeline was accepted by everyone on the commission, including Democrat attack dogs such as Richard ben-Veniste. Tell us why partisan Democrats were complicit in a cover-up to protect an administration they loathe.

 

[gumboot]

Clarke spoke to General Myers via the video link, as he states in his account.

Yes, I know. Myers was at the Capitol. He didn't arrive at the National Military Command Center (which is where the teleconference was) until after the Pentagon was hit.

-Gumboot

 

[TerryUK]

Again--you are a conspiracy liar. You have absolutely no interest in evidence.

You refer to "Cheney's timeline." Please explain. A timeline was established by the 9/11 Commission, using testimonies and phone logs. This timeline was accepted by everyone on the commission, including Democrat attack dogs such as Richard ben-Veniste. Tell us why partisan Democrats were complicit in a cover-up to protect an administration they loathe.

Please stop calling me a liar - it's not polite.

I am interested in evidence, I am not particularly interested in the political aspect of this.

The logs are not verifiable, show me evidence or tell me what you think is false.

 

[pomeroo]

Please stop calling me a liar - it's not polite.

I am interested in evidence, I am not particularly interested in the political aspect of this.

The logs are not verifiable, show me evidence or tell me what you think is false.

It's not polite to slander innocent men and women. Please stop.

Tell us why nobody found Dick Cheney's staggering confession newsworthy. If the orders are not shootdown orders, then Cheney is a mass murderer. Everybody gets that part. Now, why did the 9/11 Commission conclude that Mineta's timeline was off by a half-hour? They say they relied on all the other testimonies and the phone logs. What do you say?

 

[gumboot]

The logs are not verifiable, show me evidence or tell me what you think is false.

What do you mean the logs are not verifiable? The United States Secret Service presented the 9/11 Commission with an official statement verifying the authenticity of the logs. They are primary evidence of the timing of the events in question.

-Gumboot

 

[TerryUK]

Yes, I know. Myers was at the Capitol. He didn't arrive at the National Military Command Center (which is where the teleconference was) until after the Pentagon was hit.

-Gumboot

OK, I can't argue with that, for the simple reason that I'll have to check.

I assume that Clarke - he states that he spoke to Myers on the "Pentagon screen" - must know what he's saying. He put the time at around 0928.

If you can prove that he didn't or couldn't talk to Myers at 0928, then I will
admit it puts a different light on the rest of his story...

 

[TerryUK]

It's not polite to slander innocent men and women. Please stop.

If the orders are not shootdown orders, then Cheney is a mass murderer. ?

Not necessarily, there must be other scenarios. ( Although that is one of them )

 

[TerryUK]

What do you mean the logs are not verifiable?

-Gumboot

'We' can't check whether or not they are correct - we've no way of checking that.

Same with Cheney's and Bush's testimony... We only know what the Commission give us on that.

I understand that a lot of the staff of the Commission strongly disbelieve Cheney's testimony - according to an un-named insider. ( yes, I know that is equally unverifiable...)

 

[gumboot]

OK, I can't argue with that, for the simple reason that I'll have to check.

I assume that Clarke - he states that he spoke to Myers on the "Pentagon screen" - must know what he's saying. He put the time at around 0928.

If you can prove that he didn't or couldn't talk to Myers at 0928, then I will
admit it puts a different light on the rest of his story...

Q: If we could go back to September 11th the day that everyone will remember like December 7, 1941, what do you remember about that day?

A: I remember it was like watching a bad movie. I was on Capitol Hill. I was about ready to meet with Senator Cleland. I was meeting with him in preparation for my hearing, my confirmation hearing to be the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And I remember before we walked in there was a TV that was playing and somebody has said, "An airplane has hit one of the World Trade Center towers." They thought it was an airplane, and they thought it was a small airplane or something like that. So we walked in and we did the office call with Senator Cleland.

Sometime during that office call the second tower was hit. Nobody informed us of that. But when we came out, that was obvious. Then right at that time somebody said the Pentagon has been hit.

I immediately, somebody handed me a cell phone, and it was General Eberhart out at NORAD in Colorado Springs talking about what was happening and the actions he was going to take. We immediately, after talking to him, jumped in the car, ran back to the Pentagon.

The Chairman had left that morning to go to Europe, so he was somewhere over the Atlantic. As I got to the Pentagon I noticed a lot of people were coming out of the Pentagon. Of course they'd been told to evacuate.

My concern was where can you best discharge your duties? Where's your duty station? As a sailor, Quinn, you know a lot about your battle station. Well my battle station was in the National Military Command Center. I asked if it was still running, they said it sure is, so I went back in the building to the Command Center and was joined shortly thereafter by the Secretary of Defense. The Deputy Secretary actually went to another location at that point. We did what had to be done in terms of the command and control of the day.


Armed Forces Radio And Television Service (AFRTS), Interview with General Richard B. Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, conducted by Petty Officer Quinn Lyton, USN

Wednesday, October 17, 2001

Like I said, Richard Clarke did not talk to General Myers until after 0937.

-Gumboot

 

[gumboot]

'We' can't check whether or not they are correct - we've no way of checking that.

Yes we can. We can cross reference them with all of the other data we have. The accounts of Mineta and Clarke stand out as anomalies that contradict a host of evidence to the contrary.

Either many other people are lying or simultaneously mistaken (and coincidentally their mistaken accounts all happen to match up) and copious amounts of evidence have been fabricated, or Clarke and Mineta are both either lying or have made errors in their timeline.

-Gumboot

 

[TerryUK]

It's not polite to slander innocent men and women. Please stop.

Now, why did the 9/11 Commission conclude that Mineta's timeline was off by a half-hour? They say they relied on all the other testimonies and the phone logs. What do you say?

I read this

 

[TerryUK]

Either many other people are lying or simultaneously mistaken (and coincidentally their mistaken accounts all happen to match up) and copious amounts of evidence have been fabricated, or Clarke and Mineta are both either lying or have made errors in their timeline.

-Gumboot

Clarke and Mineta would have to be both lying - they can't both be confused in exactly the same details...
I have to log off now, but I'd just like to quickly point out that
Cheney's story has changed from being in the PEOC before the Pentagon hit (16 Sept 2001) to being there only 20 minutes later (9/11 Commission report)

 

[boloboffin]

It fits Mineta's timeline almost exactly...

Also, don't forget that only five days after 9/11, Cheney said that he (Cheney) was in the PEOC bunker before the Pentagon was hit...

You haven't read the transcript?

Almost is only good for hand grenades and horseshoes.

If you're talking about the Tim Russert interview, Cheney said no such thing. Cheney said they took him down there, but he stopped in a corridor outside the bunker and tried to get in contact with Bush again. That's where he met Lynne and they entered the PEOC at around 10:00 EDT.

 

[pomeroo]

Not necessarily, there must be other scenarios. ( Although that is one of them )

Explain yourself. A military aide asks Cheney in earshot of several witnesses if the orders still stand. Cheney confirms that they do. Now, if they are not shootdown orders, as the sane portion of the world assumes, what sort of orders are they? If they are orders to allow a hijacked airliner to crash into a government building, Cheney is complicit in mass murder and every news outlet on the planet overlooked a pretty big story.

 

[gumboot]

Clarke and Mineta would have to be both lying - they can't both be confused in exactly the same details...
I have to log off now, but I'd just like to quickly point out that
Cheney's story has changed from being in the PEOC before the Pentagon hit (16 Sept 2001) to being there only 20 minutes later (9/11 Commission report)

I disagree. Mineta's timeline and Clarke's timeline do not match up. In fact, Clarke's testimony totally refute's Mineta's claim that the "does that order stand?" conversation happened at 09:25.

The bottom line is, at 09:25EDT only one person in the entire United States knew where American Airlines Flight 77 was. That person was Hani Hanjour.

-Gumboot

 

[gumboot]

If you're talking about the Tim Russert interview, Cheney said no such thing. Cheney said they took him down there, but he stopped in a corridor outside the bunker and tried to get in contact with Bush again. That's where he met Lynne and they entered the PEOC at around 10:00 EDT.

Let's not forget that "before" was literally a matter of a few minutes before - when news reached the White House that an unidentified high-speed aircraft was heading their way. It's still well short of the 09:20 time claimed by Mineta.

-Gumboot

 

[boloboffin]

Let's not forget that "before" was literally a matter of a few minutes before - when news reached the White House that an unidentified high-speed aircraft was heading their way. It's still well short of the 09:20 time claimed by Mineta.

-Gumboot

That's right. The Secret Service was talking to Dulles for their info. They dropped the hammer on Cheney when Flight 77 was turning back toward Washington in that long turn to lose altitude. We're definitely talking about the action of a few minutes here.

 

[MikeW]

Yeah, you've got it in the wrong order - Roger Cressey turns up after Mineta has gone to the bunker.

Here's what Clarke says:
"Mineta called in from his car, and I asked him to come directly in to the Situation Room..."
(so obviously Mineta goes there, and they talk briefly )

Clarke says: "I suggested he join the Vice President [in the PEOC]"
(at this point Mineta is escorted to the bunker by an SS agent. )
Clarke continues: "Roger Cressy, my deputy ... [came] through to the Situation Room, I was relieved to see him"

Clake continues, and then describes talking to General Dick Myers via the Pentagon [video] screen...

It is only after this conversation with Myers that Clarke says "It was now nine twenty-eight"


All this matches up with Mineta's own timeline:

Mineta went to the White House by car. The distance was 1.6 miles.
From the car, he phoned the White House, and spoke to Dick Clarke.
Clarke asked Mineta to come directly to the Situation Room.
There, they talked briefly, and Clarke suggested that Mineta should join the Vice President in the PEOC.
It would be several minutes after this that Clarke says "it was now nine twenty-eight".

You're making assumptions and pretending they're facts. Here's the actual Clarke paragraph:

[Garvey to Clarke]: "Yes, but it will take a while." Shortly thereafter, Mineta called in from his car and I asked him to come directly to the Situation Room. He had two sons who were pilots for United. He did not know where they were that day. I suggested he join the Vice President.

Roger Cressey... had run eight blocks from his doctor's office...

You are assuming that Mineta arrived in the middle of that first paragraph, and the final sentence was delivered in person, but that's only one interpretation.

Given that Clarke never mentions Mineta's arrival, I think it's entirely likely that conversation was delivered over the phone. Mineta might have been asking if he could establish phone bridges with the FAA, for instance: Clarke could have said I've been talking to them, but we're fully occupied here. Come to the situation room, I'll brief you, then go to the PEOC with the VP, they have all the communications kit you need and you'll be able to work there.

Another interpretation: the final sentence was delivered after Mineta arrived, however Clarke has grouped everything Mineta-related into this paragraph, because he didn't want the line dangling later (this is a book, not a timeline). I'd say this would make a lot of sense, as between calling from the car Mineta would have to reach the White House, get to the Situation Room, then have a four or five minute conversation with Clarke. It's not safe to assume that all happened in the main paragraph above.

What we can say is that the phone call occurred after Clarke began his video conference. When did that begin? The 9/11 Commission say:

At the White House, the video teleconference was conducted from the Situation Room by Richard Clarke, a special assistant to the president long involved in counterterrorism. Logs indicate that it began at 9:25 and included the CIA; the FBI; the departments of State, Justice, and Defense; the FAA; and the White House shelter. The FAA and CIA joined at 9:40.
Page 36, 9/11 Commission Report

There's some variation here because Clarke says his conference started with the FAA. However, if Mineta was calling from his car after 9:25, and arguably was at least five minutes away from the PEOC at that point, then his "Cheney and the young man" conversation could not have been referring to Flight 77.

And as we've pointed out, his own testimony describes an evacuation that didn't occur until after the Pentagon was hit. You might want to ignore that, but it's not going away, and is far more reliable evidence than your assumptions over how Clarke wrote his book.

 

[twinstead]

You're making assumptions and pretending they're facts.

What a surprise...

 

[boloboffin]

Clarke is wrong, btw, about Mineta's sons working for United. He has two sons who are commercial pilots, but they don't work for United. That's another instance of Clarke being a little clumsy with facts.