School shooting in Finland

Please show where anyone says they would not report a school shooting in progress.

Again: I can only lead you to the evidence. I can't make you accept it.

You've checked the other thousands of videos to be sure that this one was unique?

I asked you a question:

There are thousands of other videos on YouTube with a specific school name, a description of a violent event and when it would happen?

I get emails in my inbox most days telling me to do all sorts of things, but I've learnt about spam and ignore them. I also get emails from people I know telling me things, but I've learnt to be sceptical about most of the tales that get forwarded. If I happened across a video of a teenager waving a gun around and making threats, I suspect I would be very unlikely to call anyone about it since it's exactly the sort of thing many teenagers with access to a camera are likely to do, and in most cases it leads no further.

Tell you what: Find a similar video on YouTube. One where a school is named, a threat of a massacre and a time it will happen.

Think you can?

Think there are reasons why you can't?

If it related to a local school, I might do something on the grounds it might possible to check something out (my kids have contacts at most of them), but otherwise I'd just put it down as one of those things. Even after what has just happened.

You only might do something, even if it were a local school close to you?

How can you take on that kind of responsibility?
 
CFL, whilst the fact that no-one seems to have reported the Youtube videos (even though the window of time for action to be taken seems pretty small) can be seen as a sad indictment of "Internet Society", it's by no means surprising. Countless of similarly (and more) avoidable crimes occur every day all over the world. It's just that this one's very obvious after the fact.

You can't really blame any one person for failing to stop this crime. The chances of someone finding that video, realising the significance of it, thinking that it was anything more than just teenage nonsense, phoning it in, it getting looked at it in time, the school acting in time, and so on, are cumulatively pretty small.

Yes, it's a shame, but no more so than all the other spree shootings where the shooter was known prior as a bit of an oddball, but no-one acted on their suscpicions, or like VA Tech, where they did act, but didn't recognise that the guy was a real danger.
 
Again: I can only lead you to the evidence. I can't make you accept it.



I asked you a question:

I asked you a question, but you chose to avoid it, so I shall do likewise until you see fit to engage in a reasonable manner. I'm not holding my breath.
 
CFL, whilst the fact that no-one seems to have reported the Youtube videos (even though the window of time for action to be taken seems pretty small) can be seen as a sad indictment of "Internet Society", it's by no means surprising. Countless of similarly (and more) avoidable crimes occur every day all over the world. It's just that this one's very obvious after the fact.

Yeah. But not all get announced in advance on the Internet.

You can't really blame any one person for failing to stop this crime. The chances of someone finding that video, realising the significance of it, thinking that it was anything more than just teenage nonsense, phoning it in, it getting looked at it in time, the school acting in time, and so on, are cumulatively pretty small.

Yes, it's a shame, but no more so than all the other spree shootings where the shooter was known prior as a bit of an oddball, but no-one acted on their suscpicions, or like VA Tech, where they did act, but didn't recognise that the guy was a real danger.

It is absolutely possible - rather easy, in fact - to track down the person who posts such threats. And even if there was no time for that, it would be possible to heighten security at the school in question.

It happens whenever there is a bomb threat: The police move in and secure the area. Just in case.

I asked you a question, but you chose to avoid it, so I shall do likewise until you see fit to engage in a reasonable manner. I'm not holding my breath.

Yes, you asked me a question. Or, rather, instead of answering my question, you "answered" by asking a question in return.

There are thousands of other videos on YouTube with a specific school name, a description of a violent event and when it would happen?

Can you find a similar video on YouTube? One where a school is named, a threat of a massacre and a time it will happen?

Think there are reasons why you can't?

How can you take on that kind of responsibility of maybe do something, if you saw a direct, explicit threat to a school near you?
 
Wait...what? Finland?

Is that a US state?

I thought this stuff ONLY happens in um...the US?

Finland?

Are these reports accurate? Do they mean Finland, Wisconsin or something?

I'm very confused...

Tokie
 
I feel ill.
Another school shooting:
—And another one linked to evolution!
Atheist who posted his image on YouTube before killing 8 in a public school


Atheist and evolutionist killer massacres 8 innocent people in a public school in Finland. He posted his video and this statement first on YouTube: "I am a cynical existentialist, antihuman humanist, antisocial socialdarwinist, realistic idealist and godlike atheist." and "I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection." [4], [5], [6].

(Conseravpedia)
 
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The cause and indeed the motivation, were psychological, but the opprtunity was the availability of pistols. There is a clear link between these kind of nihilistic, misanthropic attacks, and the sense of god-like power and inflated self-esteem that a repeating firearm provides.
And this is why he chose a 22. pistol?

(Sir Philip glances at his CZ 52 on the desk, a battle implement designed to penetrate body armor at beyond 100 yards, curious at never having the thought arise..)

They are also more capable of causing large numbers of serious injuries at rangethan any other easily available weapon. It's tough for any budding heroes to stop the wielder, due to high round count, compactness/handyness, and ease of reloading.
They require, unlike rifles, hits to vital areas to "drop" someone. The other terminal effect is slow blood loss.

They allow a sense of disconnection from the victim that knives, axes etc don't. These people are usually pretty cowardly and not over-eager to get their hands dirty, as it were (sorry :( ).
Completely the opposite, even with trained, psychologically prepared military snipers. Close quarter firefights are very violent affairs.

For the same reason they don't seem to risk obtaining illegal firearms. Rather they use it as a prop for their fantasies after they develop their psychological problems. Either way it's there for them to feed those fantasies and in acting out, to make it easier for them to actually go out and do it for real.
Clearly the shooter was motivated by the same reasons the Columbine assailants were.

To take your analogy, how many multiple killings of this type have been carried out with motor vehicles? People are killed in individual feuds, road rage incidents and the like, but not to my knowledge in this kind of twisted "society owes me a favour" way.
It's reality theater, they want attention and controversy along with their passing. But only a juvenile fool would think it enables him a degree of omnipotence, and learn very quickly the opposite. A vehicle on the other hand..
 
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(Sir Philip glances at his CZ 52 on the desk, a battle implement designed to penetrate body armor at beyond 100 yards, curious at never having the thought arise..)

Why should I - or, for that matter: anyone - trust you with a gun that can penetrate body armor at beyond 100 yards?

Can you please explain why you need such powerful firearms?
 
It's reality theater, they want attention and controversy along with their passing. But only a juvenile fool would think it enables him a degree of omnipotence, and learn very quickly the opposite. A vehicle on the other hand..

On the other hand, a firearm will make it possible for him to carry out his fantasies.

His deadly fantasies.
 
That's exactly it - he wanted the sort of glamourous, self-esteem inflating, compact yet destructive, attractive-looking self-loading pistol that is symbolic of so much in today's society.
Let's not get carried away, that pistol was not remotely 'badass'. :eusa_angel:

Absolutely. The .22 is a notoriously poor performer in terms of terminal ballistics.
Well, all pistol calibers have relative effectiveness. This is why latest generation weapons fire very light 17. diameter projectiles.

I suspect that the fatal casualties were those hit multiple times by this freak. He apparently had little clue as to the low power of the weapon because he tried to kill himself with it - the chance of either a protracted and painful death or even permanent but non-fatal brain damage was pretty high(which makes me think he saw it as this symbolic instant-death-dealer rather than a weapon intended for shooting targets or small game). People survive being shot by these things all the time. Famously President Reagan didn't even notice he'd been hit after an assassination attempt.
22.LR's kill more people than any other caliber, and are ideal for assassinations. They are easily defeated by thick clothing and cover though.
 
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Let's not get carried away, that pistol was not remotely 'badass'. :eusa_angel:

Well, all pistol calibers have relative effectiveness. This is why latest generation weapons fire very light 17. diameter projectiles.

22.LR's kill more people than any other caliber, and are ideal for assassinations. They are easily defeated by thick clothing and cover though, which is why they never employed otherwise.

Why should I - or, for that matter: anyone - trust you with a gun that can penetrate body armor at beyond 100 yards?

Can you please explain why you need such powerful firearms?
 
On the other hand, a firearm will make it possible for him to carry out his fantasies. His deadly fantasies.
A prize however, should be awarded to anyone on this forum who snaps you out of yours.

cflarsonof7.jpg
 
Terrible tragedy.

I understand he credited natural selection or something sick.
 
Why should I - or, for that matter: anyone - trust you with a gun that can penetrate body armor at beyond 100 yards?
The ability to clumsily poke small holes into things isn't really up there among cheap alternatives to omnipotence. Why should anyone trust you with private aircraft, tasers, or a sports car?

You fail to recognize:

- Pistols are melee weapons, and rarely effective even at close range.
- The capability even rifles enable to kill or injure large numbers of people is not greater than that of a common vehicle. To illustrate, observe the difficulty even a coaxial M240 firing high-powered rifle rounds has reliably putting someone out of the fight without hitting a vital area.

Can you please explain why you need such powerful firearms?
Will somebody please take Clause to a firearms training school so he can learn academically and first hand, how firefights work and weapon limitations, particularly pistols and submachine guns.
 
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And this is why he chose a 22. pistol?
(Sir Philip glances at his CZ 52 on the desk, a battle implement designed to penetrate body armor at beyond 100 yards, curious at never having the thought arise..)

Even a .22 pistol (especially one styled like a larger calibre weapon) ticks all the looney boxes. For all I know he would have preferred something more impressive to the average rational gun-owner, but equally he might not even have considered that .22 might either be perceived as, or actually be, a weak cartridge. Your CZ 52, whilst effective against body armour, will be somewhat less effective once through that armour, than a .45 or 9mm round. It's a tradeoff, as was this guy's choice of what was available and what would fulfil his "needs". :(

They require, unlike rifles, hits to vital areas to "drop" someone. The other terminal effect is slow blood loss.

I wouldn't say that rifles don't require critical hits to drop a person, but that's steering us off into a derail I fear. Of course blood loss is a serious effect, I wouldn't dispute that .22 can be quite lethal. I possibly applied some confirmation bias to what seemed like a low bodycount, but on the other hand as you go on to say, .22 really can be quite survivable. One other nutcase, Nico Claux, had to shoot his victim multiple times in the head, and then crush his skull with a blunt object, because the .22 rounds weren't penetrating.

Completely the opposite, even with trained, psychologically prepared military snipers. Close quarter firefights are very violent affairs.

You know that. I know that (if only from a civvie museum curator's reading of accounts and other sources). Your average gun-crazed nutjob, not necessarily - gunfights are not typically depicted this way in popular culture, which is your average teenager's only exposure to violence. But I am only speculating here, and generalising too. I am attempting to explain the fact that spree killings are executed using firearms, typically handguns.

Clearly the shooter was motivated by the same reasons the Columbine assailants were.

It's reality theater, they want attention and controversy along with their passing. But only a juvenile fool would think it enables him a degree of omnipotence, and learn very quickly the opposite.

:confused: But we are talking about juvenile fools. Even the older men who carry out such acts are emotionally, if not psychologically, "backward" in terms of social awkwardness and self-esteem problems. Again, it's not what rational folk think, it's the twisted perception of people who abuse guns to harm innocent people.

A vehicle on the other hand..

Don't make me CFL you with a request for "Evidence?" ;) I'm not aware of any spree-style killings using motor vehicles as a weapon. The closest parallel would seem to be some of the more "theatrical" highway chases, but casualties are pretty low in those cases. Seriously, if I'm wrong, let me know. I won't ever be able to own handguns or semi-automatic rifles, but I'd like to be able to argue against the existing legislation here. As it is, it seems to be an entirely rational, and so far (since 1997 in the UK) quite effective at preventing these crimes.
 
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Let's not get carried away, that pistol was not remotely 'badass'. :eusa_angel:

Fair point. Best he could get, either that or he had no taste in weapons as well as being a murdering oxygen-thief.

Well, all pistol calibers have relative effectiveness. This is why latest generation weapons fire very light 17. diameter projectiles.

I would suggest that the actual reason has to do with selling new and exciting products to gun-owners. High-velocity small-calibre rounds that don't expand or fragment in the target are very poor incapacitators. Great target and varmint rounds, and in a fully-automatic compact package like the MP7 and P90, arguably worth having in certain situations. But not much cop if your goal is to incapacitate human beings, either in the military/LE or as the aforementioned oxygen thief. But again, we shouldn't derail too far.

22.LR's kill more people than any other caliber, and are ideal for assassinations.

I would assume that's because they are extremely common. It's like saying the Hurricane shot down more German planes than the Spitfire - entirely true, but useless as a like-like comparison of effectiveness. And the reasons they are ideal for assassination are also the reasons why they are rubbish for rapid incapacitation and have a lesser chance of later fatality also. It's a trade-off, like any such choice of "equipment".

They are easily defeated by thick clothing and cover though, which is why they never employed otherwise.

And just generally not very good at wounding people. But still far more effective than a non-firearm, and still capable in high-capacity semi-auto weapons, of wounding and killing significant numbers. All whilst passing muster as a desirable weapon of choice for disaffected malcontented fantasists.
 
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A prize however, should be awarded to anyone on this forum who snaps you out of yours.

Why, I'm famous!

You say I live in a fantasy. Hence, not in the real world.

Does that mean you argue that the evidence shows that people should own guns?

Terrible tragedy.

I understand he credited natural selection or something sick.

Yeah. That only shows how deranged he was.

The ability to clumsily poke small holes into things isn't really up there among cheap alternatives to omnipotence.

Wait a minute.

Why do you need guns, if they only have the ability to "clumsily poke small holes into things"?

They must be good for something, right?

Why should anyone trust you with private aircraft, tasers, or a sports car?

Who has gone on a rampage, killing people with any of those?

You fail to recognize:

- Pistols are melee weapons, and rarely effective even at close range.

The long list of dead kids from school shootings proves you wrong. Pistols are hellishly effective at close range.

- The capability even rifles enable to kill or injure large numbers of people is not greater than that of a common vehicle. To illustrate, observe the difficulty even a coaxial M240 firing high-powered rifle rounds has reliably putting someone out of the fight without hitting a vital area.

Gee, the way you describe guns makes people think that they aren't worth much anyway.

So, why have them?

Will somebody please take Clause to a firearms training school so he can learn academically and first hand, how firefights work and weapon limitations, particularly pistols and submachine guns.

Why should I - or, for that matter: anyone - trust you with a gun that can penetrate body armor at beyond 100 yards?

Can you please explain why you need such powerful firearms?
 
You say I live in a fantasy.
You are in denial that you simply have an emotional problem with them, and your statements reflect this.

They must be good for something, right?
I can't help the fact they are phallic and potentially deadly, Claus.

Who has gone on a rampage, killing people with any of those?
The rate these sensationalized incidents occur are astonishingly low. You can't prevent them as they are motivated for cultural and psychological reasons. Take a look..

The long list of dead kids from school shootings proves you wrong. Pistols are hellishly effective at close range.
Ratio to rounds fired to injuries or deaths typically are hundreds to say, 10 or 15 people. All autopistols are designed for defense at a standoff distance against typically one or two assailants. It is very difficult to reliably drop anyone with one (by drop I mean prevent them from retaliating).

So, why have them?
Listen carefully:

- Dangerous products exist with legitimate purposes.

- I'm sure what Woodstock in 1969 stood for was amazing but you've got responsibilities as someone more realistic now.

- The fact a type is emotionally upsetting to you due to phallic characteristics is out of my control.

- This will stay that way because the world doesn't revolve around you.

- This will also stay that way because the world doesn't revolve around Islam.

- Therapists also exist.


Can you please explain why you need such powerful firearms?
Sure, because I want to. Furthermore there is no rational reason to prevent a civilian from owning a pistol or rifle for security or recreation. Millions do, an overwhelmingly vast proportion for legitimate purposes. I live in a country where this fact is recognized.

Now can you explain why you cannot handle this?
 
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Seriously, if I'm wrong, let me know.
My point was pistols aren't remotely ideal methods of 'spree killing' with impunity, yet these have been used in all incidents to date. A trained person can kill or injure upwards of fifty people with a Kalashnikov rifle in a minute - same with a sword, worse can be done by stealing a large vehicle and crashing through a schoolyard. What's the difference? Firearms generate irrational controversy over their "power" by people who don't know better.
 
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