School shooting in Finland

[quixotecoyote]

Also, who of us here would pick up a phone and call the police over something we read over the Internet, whether a suicide note or an intention to commit a crime, a cry for help against some outside danger or any other example you can think of?

Can you imagine calling 911 because dungeonsanddragons34567 from Kentucky posted a suicide note on imdb?

I used to feel like an idiot calling the police to report stalkers.

I only did that once after someone I knew was a teenager from a different message board posted she was about to fell her violent fundy parents she was an atheist and then disappeared off the board after she said she was going to be back on. I figured it couldn't hurt to check. In that case I did happen to know her last name so I could look up an address and have them take me seriously.

 

[Cain]

So he didn't have a good reason?

 

[CFLarsen]

Also, who of us here would pick up a phone and call the police over something we read over the Internet, whether a suicide note or an intention to commit a crime, a cry for help against some outside danger or any other example you can think of?

Can you imagine calling 911 because dungeonsanddragons34567 from Kentucky posted a suicide note on imdb?

I used to feel like an idiot calling the police to report stalkers.

You don't necessarily need to call the police. In this case, the school's name was mentioned. Call the school. Or drop them an email, with a link to the video.

If you are uncomfortable, do it anonymously.

 

[ref]

This is so hard to comprehend.

The killer died 10 hours after the incident. He shot himself in the head after he had shot the others.

It's so easy to say, that this should have been noticed. He posted the massacre YouTube -video day before the incident. I don't know when he posted the other stuff, but some of it he had updated as late as 2 hours before he went on the rampage. He had posted some info on a site, that gets 25000 posts a day. How can you filter out anything out of that mass. Plus even if someone had seen it, how many would have reported it. If it had been reported, what could have been done to prevent it. All speculation. Nothing helps anymore.

It's a national mourning day here in Finland. Flags on half-mast everywhere you look. So sad.

 

[timhau]

It's so easy to say, that this should have been noticed. He posted the massacre YouTube -video day before the incident. I don't know when he posted the other stuff, but some of it he had updated as late as 2 hours before he went on the rampage. He had posted some info on a site, that gets 25000 posts a day. How can you filter out anything out of that mass. Plus even if someone had seen it, how many would have reported it.

Exactly. And what do you report? That there's an angry adolescent ranting and posting creepy videos on the internet?

This was, of course, a tragedy. But I'm already getting sick of the aftermath and the way some folks are cashing in on this, one way or the other. This is not just limited to the afternoon papers for whom any tragedy is a gift from the gods. We also get representatives of the church (we're officially a Lutheran country) popping up all over the media going "Come and pray with us, we care! See, we're not irrelevant!". At least one of the national radio channels canceled all their evening programs in favor of a talk-show, where some guy from an evangelical youth mission was using his free radio time to essentially say "Oh, wasn't that terrible. But let me tell you something about our organization...". When he wasn't on, they had some "crisis therapists" telling us how we should feel now and that we should never forget to be afraid and that in times like these the best reaction is not to go on living as normally as you can but to suck your thumb and go look for a surrogate mom.

I understand this must be horrible not only for those directly involved but also to their families and friends. What I don't understand is the urge to turn this into a huge grief & anxiety extravaganza for those of us who have no involvement. Was it terrible? Yes. If I could do something to undo it, would I? Yes. Did it have an effect on me personally? No. Am I somehow emotionally retarded?

 

[AK-Dave]

OK, people. I'm tired of all this murder-suicide BS. If you want to kill yourself and take a bunch of people with you, be my guest. Just get things in the right order. Do the suicide part first, then the murder. Trust me, it's a lot better for everyone if you do it in that order.

-David

 

[timhau]

OK, people. I'm tired of all this murder-suicide BS. If you want to kill yourself and take a bunch of people with you, be my guest. Just get things in the right order. Do the suicide part first, then the murder. Trust me, it's a lot better for everyone if you do it in that order.

Exactly. Start with the easy shot and work your way up.

 

[CFLarsen]

Exactly. And what do you report? That there's an angry adolescent ranting and posting creepy videos on the internet?

Perhaps not.

But don't you think that when someone posts an angry adolescent ranting and posting creepy videos on the Internet showing a person with a gun, and the title includes the name of a school, and a specific upcoming date on which a "high school massacre" is to happen, there is reason to report it?

 

[chatiez]

I think we finns will in national level take it at it is: a tragedy. I was proud last night when there was plea for lighting candles for every victim and also for shooter who died during night.

 

[chatiez]

-- Double post because browser was jammed on sending screen --

 

[timhau]

Perhaps not.

But don't you think that when someone posts an angry adolescent ranting and posting creepy videos on the Internet showing a person with a gun, and the title includes the name of a school, and a specific upcoming date on which a "high school massacre" is to happen, there is reason to report it?

In retrospect, yeah. And someone might even have done so, had there been more time; that particular video was uploaded to YouTube only an hour or two before the first shots were fired. That's the only specific threat I'm aware of. The rest is apparently just nazi-flavored nihilistic ranting and creepy videos; if you report all those and the police take them seriously, they'll have very little time to do anything else.

ETA: FWIW, a threat made to "Jokela (high) school" isn't really all that specific. I googled the Finnish phrase Jokelan koulu (Finnish for 'Jokela school', which is how that institution is probably locally known; it translates roughly as 'Riverside school'), and on the first page there are links to three similarly named schools in other municipalities. One of them is located less than 15 miles from the place where I grew up; if I were to report someone for a threat concerning the Jokela school, the PD I would have called is about 200 miles west from where the shootings took place.

 

[chatiez]

Exactly. And what do you report? That there's an angry adolescent ranting and posting creepy videos on the internet?

This was, of course, a tragedy. But I'm already getting sick of the aftermath and the way some folks are cashing in on this, one way or the other. This is not just limited to the afternoon papers for whom any tragedy is a gift from the gods. We also get representatives of the church (we're officially a Lutheran country) popping up all over the media going "Come and pray with us, we care! See, we're not irrelevant!". At least one of the national radio channels canceled all their evening programs in favor of a talk-show, where some guy from an evangelical youth mission was using his free radio time to essentially say "Oh, wasn't that terrible. But let me tell you something about our organization...". When he wasn't on, they had some "crisis therapists" telling us how we should feel now and that we should never forget to be afraid and that in times like these the best reaction is not to go on living as normally as you can but to suck your thumb and go look for a surrogate mom.

I understand this must be horrible not only for those directly involved but also to their families and friends. What I don't understand is the urge to turn this into a huge grief & anxiety extravaganza for those of us who have no involvement. Was it terrible? Yes. If I could do something to undo it, would I? Yes. Did it have an effect on me personally? No. Am I somehow emotionally retarded?

If youre speaking about Finland, we are not officially lutheritan country, majority church just have special rights (church-law).

When going through main headlines&editorials of papers, I would say response has been pretty much rational. Grief not fearmongering.

I dont personally feel offended as a person outside church if they want to offer help, I just change channel. Only group I felt are really feeding from this tragedy are some marginal religious bloggers who have made arguments "see, this is what darwinism and atheism do!" but their audience and credibility is totally limited.

As for debriefing and crisis psychology where you point with "crisis therapist", its field of psychology which have pretty short history and limited research done. Some localized finnish studies show great benefit at least in first responders ( for example Hynninen 2004). I am thou generation of medical personel who have got courses to this in school so my point of view may differ because looking through these glasses.

My bottom line is that your common sense argument "it doesnt concern me" can be true on your part but its not fair point to judge what other people benefit from. When rational response and understanding are goals instead of fear and unproductive limitations, these things can actually help people in general.

 

[ponderingturtle]

OK, people. I'm tired of all this murder-suicide BS. If you want to kill yourself and take a bunch of people with you, be my guest. Just get things in the right order. Do the suicide part first, then the murder. Trust me, it's a lot better for everyone if you do it in that order.

-David

So suicide vests then? Being closest you are the first to die.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Two hours ago, it's reported in Norwegian media.

At first, they said there was only one casualty. Now there's seven.

The 18-year-old shooter put a video on YouTube two weeks ago, where he hints at what he was going to do.

ETA:

His YouTube Video named Jokela High School Massacre - 11/7/2007

Wow, this could've SO been stopped.

BBC article.

His T-shirt carries quite the message. It's an odd paraphrasing of some George Carlin gags.

I agree with his problem being the order of whom he shot.

Sad. Finland, my heart goes out to you. You didn't need this American export, eh?

DR

 

[CFLarsen]

In retrospect, yeah. And someone might even have done so, had there been more time; that particular video was uploaded to YouTube only an hour or two before the first shots were fired. That's the only specific threat I'm aware of. The rest is apparently just nazi-flavored nihilistic ranting and creepy videos; if you report all those and the police take them seriously, they'll have very little time to do anything else.

Do you think that those who saw the video before the shooting started should have alerted the authorities?

ETA: FWIW, a threat made to "Jokela (high) school" isn't really all that specific. I googled the Finnish phrase Jokelan koulu (Finnish for 'Jokela school', which is how that institution is probably locally known; it translates roughly as 'Riverside school'), and on the first page there are links to three similarly named schools in other municipalities.

Jokela is the name of the town.

One of them is located less than 15 miles from the place where I grew up; if I were to report someone for a threat concerning the Jokela school, the PD I would have called is about 200 miles west from where the shootings took place.

What does distance have to do with anything?

Are you saying that if you saw a YouTube video with a specific high school name, a date in the future, and a clear threat to create a massacre, you would not alert the authorities unless it was close to you?

 

[timhau]

Do you think that those who saw the video before the shooting started should have alerted the authorities?

In hindsight, of course. Without that benefit, I don't know. I bet there are people asking themselves that question right now.

Jokela is the name of the town.

Actually, it's part of the township of Tuusula. It's also by no means the only town/village by that name in Finland.

What does distance have to do with anything?

Are you saying that if you saw a YouTube video with a specific high school name, a date in the future, and a clear threat to create a massacre, you would not alert the authorities unless it was close to you?

Come on, it shouldn't be that hard to understand. I'm saying that in this case, I would in all likelihood have called the wrong police department, because the school I know as 'the Jokela school' is in the township of Paimio, over 200 miles from the school in Tuusula where the shooting incident took place. I'm not at all sure it would occur to me that there are probably several schools by that name in other parts of the country; whether the Paimio police would realize it in time is anyone's guess.

 

[CFLarsen]

In hindsight, of course. Without that benefit, I don't know. I bet there are people asking themselves that question right now.

After all these school shootings, you don't know if you would have contacted the authorities if you saw an announced school shootings from someone brandishing a gun.

I simply don't understand that attitude.

Actually, it's part of the township of Tuusula. It's also by no means the only town/village by that name in Finland.

Come on, it shouldn't be that hard to understand. I'm saying that in this case, I would in all likelihood have called the wrong police department, because the school I know as 'the Jokela school' is in the township of Paimio, over 200 miles from the school in Tuusula where the shooting incident took place. I'm not at all sure it would occur to me that there are probably several schools by that name in other parts of the country; whether the Paimio police would realize it in time is anyone's guess.

So? Why do you think it is up to you to decide which Jokela school it is? Leave that to the authorities - that's their job.

 

[Ryokan]

So? Why do you think it is up to you to decide which Jokela school it is? Leave that to the authorities - that's their job.

Besides, the video opened with a picture of the school. Wouldn't need much figuring out.

 

[timhau]

After all these school shootings, you don't know if you would have contacted the authorities if you saw an announced school shootings from someone brandishing a gun.

Yes, all these school shootings. It isn't full 20 years since we had one, and yesterday we had one again.

So? Why do you think it is up to you to decide which Jokela school it is? Leave that to the authorities - that's their job.

I suppose it is. But how long would it have taken for the information to reach the correct precinct from the Paimio police which, way back in my childhood when nobody had even heard of public-sector cutbacks, used to employ three people? If the purpose is not to give me the smug satisfaction of "having done my part" but to avoid the shooting, the chances that my warning would've gone to waste are really high.

 

[CFLarsen]

Besides, the video opened with a picture of the school. Wouldn't need much figuring out.

Indeed.

Yes, all these school shootings. It isn't full 20 years since we had one, and yesterday we had one again.

You accept the risk, then? You are not going to advocate any changes in Finland because of this?

I suppose it is. But how long would it have taken for the information to reach the correct precinct from the Paimio police which, way back in my childhood when nobody had even heard of public-sector cutbacks, used to employ three people? If the purpose is not to give me the smug satisfaction of "having done my part" but to avoid the shooting, the chances that my warning would've gone to waste are really high.

How do you know how long a shooting will continue? The Columbine Shootings took almost 1 hour. The Virginia Tech Shootings took about 2 hours.

You are taking on a hell of a responsibility, when you appoint yourself an on-site expert in such crises.