School shooting in Finland

Why have a police at all, then?

Good question. If we can't do everything, why do anything at all?

It isn't a single tragedy. And you certainly can't ignore the high rate of homicides, e.g. compared to other Scandinavian countries.

And even if it were a single tragedy, why not take action if you found that there was reason to change? You would not have made any changes after the 9-11 attacks?

The vast majority of our homicides are not school shootings. In fact, the vast majority of them don't involve firearms at all. As the old story goes, the standard Finnish homicide has three jobless alcoholic males getting drunk out of their minds together. In the morning, two of them wake up to find that the third one has a knife in his chest. Neither knows which one of them did it.

And don't be dense. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do changes. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't rush to action because you feel an urge to do something. I'm not opposed to legislative action based on single incidents; I'm opposed to (and I quote myself) "hastily drawn, poorly thought-out legislative action based on a single tragedy"; feel-good laws, as I've heard them called.

Think about it: You see a school shooting like this happening, right in front of you. How can you take on the responsibility of judging if it is worth calling the police or not?

Is this a reading comprehension problem, or does the message get garbled on its way to planet X?
 
Last edited:
Indeed.You accept the risk, then? You are not going to advocate any changes in Finland because of this?
The cause of the incident was not the availability of pistols, but psychological. It is impossible to prevent anyone in any country, much as with cars, from taking one and running someone over. This being Europe illustrates the point. It's a ridiculous, ludicrous irrational argument.

How do you know how long a shooting will continue? The Columbine Shootings took almost 1 hour. The Virginia Tech Shootings took about 2 hours.
Entirely irrelevant, a basic familiarity with hitting fixed steel or moving plates is what's required to likely hit 20 people in less than a minute, assuming a fully packed classroom. Almost all incidents involve not very clever people.

You are taking on a hell of a responsibility, when you appoint yourself an on-site expert in such crises.
But you have an educated opinion on their advantages and social liabilities?
 
Last edited:
I saw the reporting. I live here, remember. I saw the links and the interest towards those videos before they were taken down. The links were posted in our main web tabloids and all discussion forums.

That doesn't answer the question:

How do you know the views came after the links to the videos were posted by the Finnish media?

Since you said it doesn't matter whether you are a Finn or not, then why didn't YOU report this?

I didn't see it before it happened.

Who saw a school shooting happen and didn't report it?

Scroll up: We are talking about what timhau would do, if he saw a school shooting happening.

Good question. If we can't do everything, why do anything at all?

The vast majority of our homicides are not school shootings. In fact, the vast majority of them don't involve firearms at all. As the old story goes, the standard Finnish homicide has three jobless alcoholic males getting drunk out of their minds together. In the morning, two of them wake up to find that the third one has a knife in his chest. Neither knows which one of them did it.

And don't be dense. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do changes. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't rush to action because you feel an urge to do something. I'm not opposed to legislative action based on single incidents; I'm opposed to (and I quote myself) "hastily drawn, poorly thought-out legislative action based on a single tragedy"; feel-good laws, as I've heard them called.

The question is, where do you draw the line, before you will take action?

Not here, clearly. Where?

Is this a reading comprehension problem, or does the message get garbled on its way to planet X?

Scroll up: Post #39. You are talking about not warning the police, because you judge it won't avoid the shooting.

The cause of the incident was not the availability of pistols, but psychological. It is impossible to prevent anyone in any country, much as with cars, from taking one and running someone over.

Ah, yes, the old, tired "cars kill people, too" argument.

Does that mean you advocate privately owned nukes?

This being Europe illustrates the point. It's a ridiculous, ludicrous irrational argument.

You call it "irrational" to link shootings to guns? O...K.

Entirely irrelevant, a basic familiarity with hitting fixed steel or moving plates is what's required to likely hit 20 people in less than a minute, assuming a fully packed classroom. Almost all incidents involve not very clever people.

Ah, so people got shot because they were dumb? You sound eerily like Auvinen.

But you have an educated opinion on their advantages and social liabilities?

I know that the best to judge and handle a situation like a school shooting is the police. I don't presume to know better than the police. I certainly wouldn't refrain from calling the police.
 
Scroll up: We are talking about what timhau would do, if he saw a school shooting happening.

I did scroll up. Nowhere did I see it stated that someone saw a school shooting happen which they didn't report, until you plucked that statement out of the air.

One thing I've not seen stated so far; it's easy to look back and say the video should have cause action to be taken. But how different was this one from the thousands of others posted every day?
 
That doesn't answer the question:

How do you know the views came after the links to the videos were posted by the Finnish media?

How do you know they didn't? A huge majority of views came after the incident. When our major tabloids and discussion forums posted the links to a video, that was posted on YouTube less than 24 hours ago, is it that hard to understand that most views came after the links were posted?

I didn't see it before it happened.

Bingo!!!
 
Last edited:
I did scroll up. Nowhere did I see it stated that someone saw a school shooting happen which they didn't report, until you plucked that statement out of the air.

Not at all:

Are you saying that if you saw a YouTube video with a specific high school name, a date in the future, and a clear threat to create a massacre, you would not alert the authorities unless it was close to you?

Come on, it shouldn't be that hard to understand. I'm saying that in this case, I would in all likelihood have called the wrong police department, because the school I know as 'the Jokela school' is in the township of Paimio, over 200 miles from the school in Tuusula where the shooting incident took place. I'm not at all sure it would occur to me that there are probably several schools by that name in other parts of the country; whether the Paimio police would realize it in time is anyone's guess.

So? Why do you think it is up to you to decide which Jokela school it is? Leave that to the authorities - that's their job.

I suppose it is. But how long would it have taken for the information to reach the correct precinct from the Paimio police which, way back in my childhood when nobody had even heard of public-sector cutbacks, used to employ three people? If the purpose is not to give me the smug satisfaction of "having done my part" but to avoid the shooting, the chances that my warning would've gone to waste are really high.



One thing I've not seen stated so far; it's easy to look back and say the video should have cause action to be taken. But how different was this one from the thousands of others posted every day?

Because it gave the name of the school, described what would happen, and when.

If that is not reason to react, what is?
 
Sorry, I don't see anyone saying they would not report a school shooting which was happening. Straw man.

Because it gave the name of the school, described what would happen, and when.

And is it different from the thousands of others in this respect? Evidence?
 
Accept the risk of what? That we'll have another incident like this in the 2020s? Yes. If the authorities have to choose between actions that may prevent, say, 9 singular, non-headline-making deaths per year and actions that may prevent a mass murder of 9 every 20 or so years, I'd rather have them pick the former. And given that we're not a nation of limitless resources, they do have to prioritize their actions.

What I fear more than crazed shooters at this point is politicians rushing head-first into hastily drawn, poorly thought-out legislative action based on a single tragedy.

I think rationalism is strong part of Finland as general. This wasnt in any way first act of violence of its kind just a pattern I think made it go international news. Just a couple years ago we had homegrown bomber and before internet age I can remember couple local incidents which couldve develop to same heights (young man stabbing random people at workers day, teacher taking gun away from drugged pupil in right next commun of where I live).

Our current ministry is in some trouble atm and their popularity most likely will go down in the future, so they would perhaps make this political. Im not sure who would buy it thou, for example teachers union already in wednesday announced that they dont want guards and metal detectors or any of that stuff. I think fearpolitics would be more likely come from EU level rather than national.

As already said here, Finland got high murder rates but the vast majority of them are made by same pattern: vodka, buddies, axe, next morning none actually remembers why it happened. We dont have athmosphere of fear here.
 
Last edited:
Does that mean you advocate privately owned nukes?
Sure! I mean, it's not like warheads have no constructive purpose besides raising the temperature of everything to millions of degrees and flattening structures underneath for a five mile radius, everyone can already legally poke pencil-size holes into things..

You call it "irrational" to link shootings to guns? O...K.
I guess I could link 22. pistols to tactical warheads, If I really wanted to sound irrational.

Ah, so people got shot because they were dumb? You sound eerily like Auvinen.
They overwhelmingly aren't skilled shooters or smart, clearly I meant. So discussing time frames is moot. Only campus security responding to a gunshot detector that immediately relayed the position would have any merit in preventing additional people being shot. And even then you have five minutes.
 
Last edited:
The cause of the incident was not the availability of pistols, but psychological. It is impossible to prevent anyone in any country, much as with cars, from taking one and running someone over. This being Europe illustrates the point. It's a ridiculous, ludicrous irrational argument.

The cause and indeed the motivation, were psychological, but the opprtunity was the availability of pistols. There is a clear link between these kind of nihilistic, misanthropic attacks, and the sense of god-like power and inflated self-esteem that a repeating firearm provides. They are also more capable of causing large numbers of serious injuries at rangethan any other easily available weapon. It's tough for any budding heroes to stop the wielder, due to high round count, compactness/handyness, and ease of reloading. They allow a sense of disconnection from the victim that knives, axes etc don't. These people are usually pretty cowardly and not over-eager to get their hands dirty, as it were (sorry :( ). For the same reason they don't seem to risk obtaining illegal firearms. Rather they use it as a prop for their fantasies after they develop their psychological problems. Either way it's there for them to feed those fantasies and in acting out, to make it easier for them to actually go out and do it for real.

There is therefore a somewhat cogent (if highly dependent upon uncertain psychological ideas) argument for the banning of formerly legally held handguns and similar short-barrelled weapons. I'm not saying it's 100% convincing, and I'm actually as pro-gun as it's possible to be in this country, but that's as I see the problem and how anti-gun legislators see the solution.

To take your analogy, how many multiple killings of this type have been carried out with motor vehicles? People are killed in individual feuds, road rage incidents and the like, but not to my knowledge in this kind of twisted "society owes me a favour" way.
 
It isn't a single tragedy. And you certainly can't ignore the high rate of homicides, e.g. compared to other Scandinavian countries.

And even if it were a single tragedy, why not take action if you found that there was reason to change? You would not have made any changes after the 9-11 attacks?

I don't know from where youre from but please understand Finland is different country in many ways compared to Norway or Sweden, as it differs from Estonia - and whole region is far from Usa in many ways. Murder rates aren't the only statistic where Finland differs from neighbours and its unfair to point out one statistic and make argument based on that.

We don't ignore that, we just don't believe its a political problem. We have deep-rooted primary prevention based social - and healthstructure, "nations healthwork" which we rely on to make progress over long period of time.

This incident was separate from main reasons of our high murder rates, therefore right way is to understand why this happened and how to primary prevent (develop youthservices more flexible that they can reach next Auvinen before he buys a gun) this kind of phenomenon to happen rather than secondary prevention (guards, limitation, metal detectors).

Of course local 9-11-type incident would change way of thinking and procedures but I predict change would follow same pattern I described above.
 
Last edited:
There is therefore a somewhat cogent (if highly dependent upon uncertain psychological ideas) argument for the banning of formerly legally held handguns and similar short-barrelled weapons. I'm not saying it's 100% convincing, and I'm actually as pro-gun as it's possible to be in this country, but that's as I see the problem and how anti-gun legislators see the solution.


Yes, but then, how far do you want to take it?

I'm not convinced that a complete ban on just handguns would have stopped an individual like this. He seems to have been very motivated, to the point where he went through all the effort of getting a legal firearm. He seemed committed to carry out his plan regardless of how hard or easy it was to obtain a gun. According to the news he wanted a 9mm pistol but was refused because Finnish law requires the first weapon to be .22 caliber, so that's what he used.

He could have accomplished the same thing with a winter sports rifle (or even a hunting weapon), which tend to be easily available in these regions. I guess there may not be the same action movie appeal, but they are just as effective and generally hold 5+1 cartridges. Half of his pistol, but a non issue with a bag full of loaded magazines. According to the news he was carrying hundreds of cartridges. Why so few people were killed is anyone's guess.

Would things have been different with a more powerful gun? I don't know.


Incidentally, it appears he also tried to set the school on fire.
 
Sorry, I don't see anyone saying they would not report a school shooting which was happening. Straw man.

I can only lead you to the evidence. I can't make you accept it.

And is it different from the thousands of others in this respect? Evidence?

There are thousands of other videos on YouTube with a specific school name, a description of a violent event and when it would happen?

Really?

OK, I confess. If I saw a school shooting in progress, instead of the police, I'd call my ghoulish friends and tell them to bring beer and popcorn. It's like a live action movie for free.

Where do you draw the line, before you will take action?

Sure! I mean, it's not like warheads have no constructive purpose besides raising the temperature of everything to millions of degrees and flattening structures underneath for a five mile radius, everyone can already legally poke pencil-size holes into things..

But then, you are not merely pointing to psychological causes. You are also drawing a line somewhere between acceptable weapons and unacceptable weapons.

Where is that line?

Guns, yes. Nukes, no. Bazookas? Tanks? Handgrenades?

They overwhelmingly aren't skilled shooters or smart, clearly I meant. So discussing time frames is moot. Only campus security responding to a gunshot detector that immediately relayed the position would have any merit in preventing additional people being shot. And even then you have five minutes.

What "gunshot detector"?

The cause and indeed the motivation, were psychological, but the opprtunity was the availability of pistols. There is a clear link between these kind of nihilistic, misanthropic attacks, and the sense of god-like power and inflated self-esteem that a repeating firearm provides. They are also more capable of causing large numbers of serious injuries at rangethan any other easily available weapon. It's tough for any budding heroes to stop the wielder, due to high round count, compactness/handyness, and ease of reloading. They allow a sense of disconnection from the victim that knives, axes etc don't. These people are usually pretty cowardly and not over-eager to get their hands dirty, as it were (sorry :( ). For the same reason they don't seem to risk obtaining illegal firearms. Rather they use it as a prop for their fantasies after they develop their psychological problems. Either way it's there for them to feed those fantasies and in acting out, to make it easier for them to actually go out and do it for real.

There is therefore a somewhat cogent (if highly dependent upon uncertain psychological ideas) argument for the banning of formerly legally held handguns and similar short-barrelled weapons. I'm not saying it's 100% convincing, and I'm actually as pro-gun as it's possible to be in this country, but that's as I see the problem and how anti-gun legislators see the solution.

To take your analogy, how many multiple killings of this type have been carried out with motor vehicles? People are killed in individual feuds, road rage incidents and the like, but not to my knowledge in this kind of twisted "society owes me a favour" way.

Absolutely agree.

I don't know from where youre from but please understand Finland is different country in many ways compared to Norway or Sweden, as it differs from Estonia - and whole region is far from Usa in many ways. Murder rates aren't the only statistic where Finland differs from neighbours and its unfair to point out one statistic and make argument based on that.

We don't ignore that, we just don't believe its a political problem. We have deep-rooted primary prevention based social - and healthstructure, "nations healthwork" which we rely on to make progress over long period of time.

The same applies to Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

This incident was separate from main reasons of our high murder rates, therefore right way is to understand why this happened and how to primary prevent (develop youthservices more flexible that they can reach next Auvinen before he buys a gun) this kind of phenomenon to happen rather than secondary prevention (guards, limitation, metal detectors).

Of course local 9-11-type incident would change way of thinking and procedures but I predict change would follow same pattern I described above.

I'll add to what Big Les said above: There is absolutely no doubt that the guns add to these people's sense of power, and that is a big factor in making these incidents happen. We don't see many mass murders where people use a tractor.

What we also shouldn't ignore is that these attacks are carried out by people who are using the new communication technologies well. Loners and outcasts in real life, they lived a much more intense life via the Internet. Not only did they express themselves through mass communication, they also fed on the previous incidents. Auvinen was not just an admirer of twisted ideologies, he was also a fan of previous school shooters.

There are many such ill-adjusted people in any society today, and the vast majority does not go on a rampage. But there is one factor that separates the school shooters from the others:

They took action only when they felt powerful enough - they had guns to carry out their fantasies.
 
Yes, but then, how far do you want to take it?

I'm not convinced that a complete ban on just handguns would have stopped an individual like this. He seems to have been very motivated, to the point where he went through all the effort of getting a legal firearm. He seemed committed to carry out his plan regardless of how hard or easy it was to obtain a gun. According to the news he wanted a 9mm pistol but was refused because Finnish law requires the first weapon to be .22 caliber, so that's what he used.

He could have accomplished the same thing with a winter sports rifle (or even a hunting weapon), which tend to be easily available in these regions. I guess there may not be the same action movie appeal, but they are just as effective and generally hold 5+1 cartridges. Half of his pistol, but a non issue with a bag full of loaded magazines. According to the news he was carrying hundreds of cartridges. Why so few people were killed is anyone's guess.

Would things have been different with a more powerful gun? I don't know.

You are quite right: It does not hold the same appeal. Auvinen, Harris and Klebold filmed themselves brandishing a handgun like they were the cinematic archetypical lone avenger. They didn't film themselves as Jimmy Stewart in Mr. Smith Goes To Washington.

Incidentally, it appears he also tried to set the school on fire.

And the Columbine shooters tried to blow up their school. Yet, none of them succeed - it was simply too difficult.

But they had no problems creating havoc with guns.
 
Yes, but then, how far do you want to take it?

I don't want to take it anywhere. Selfishly, I would like to be able to own handguns. Hell, I'd like to be able to own automatic weapons. But I recognise that not everybody is as responsible as I would hope I would be with such toys. And they would be toys, and therefore banning them is removing a privilege, not a right - there's no need whatever (in the UK at least) to own either type of weapon.

Of course you don't take it as far as banning useful weapons like hunting rifles, shotguns etc. But you make damn sure that your vetting procedures are Sierra Hotel.

I'm not convinced that a complete ban on just handguns would have stopped an individual like this. He seems to have been very motivated, to the point where he went through all the effort of getting a legal firearm. He seemed committed to carry out his plan regardless of how hard or easy it was to obtain a gun. According to the news he wanted a 9mm pistol but was refused because Finnish law requires the first weapon to be .22 caliber, so that's what he used.

That's exactly it - he wanted the sort of glamourous, self-esteem inflating, compact yet destructive, attractive-looking self-loading pistol that is symbolic of so much in today's society.

He could have accomplished the same thing with a winter sports rifle (or even a hunting weapon), which tend to be easily available in these regions. I guess there may not be the same action movie appeal, but they are just as effective and generally hold 5+1 cartridges. Half of his pistol, but a non issue with a bag full of loaded magazines.

You're thinking like a rational person. Long rifles do get used in spree killings, but where the individual shooter prefers to stand off at a range/elevation. Either because they wish to try and escape (most likely) or because their personality makes them leary of going toe-to-toe with their victims. They don't get used in close-quarters, probably for quite practical reasons - they are long, heavy, and unwieldy. They hold less ammunition, and advertise the fact via their configuration. Should anyone decide to play hero, it's far easier for them to both close you down, and to grab the barrel to prevent you firing at them. They also leave no free hands to manipulate people, obstructions, and objects, and are slower and more awkward to reload. So the sense of security will be much less, despite the obvious "display" aspect of having a big weapon in your hands.

Michael Ryan, the Hungerford killer, used both 9mm pistols and a semi-auto AK assault rifle. Shorter barrelled rifles and carbines do approximate the close-quarters practicality and psychological desirability of a military calibre handgun (if not exceed it), but are harder to get, harder to shoot accurately indoors, louder, and harder to conceal than pistols.

According to the news he was carrying hundreds of cartridges. Why so few people were killed is anyone's guess. Would things have been different with a more powerful gun? I don't know.

Absolutely. The .22 is a notoriously poor performer in terms of terminal ballistics. I suspect that the fatal casualties were those hit multiple times by this freak. He apparently had little clue as to the low power of the weapon because he tried to kill himself with it - the chance of either a protracted and painful death or even permanent but non-fatal brain damage was pretty high(which makes me think he saw it as this symbolic instant-death-dealer rather than a weapon intended for shooting targets or small game). People survive being shot by these things all the time. Famously President Reagan didn't even notice he'd been hit after an assassination attempt.

Assuming all my theorising reflects realirt, each time you ban a firearm type, you remove one especially lethal tool from a spree-killers arsenal. It just depends on, as a society, how much compromise you are prepared to make versus how much benefit gun ownership brings individuals and society at large. When you start to seriously impinge upon people's needs and leisure activities, you have to look at cost/benefit and, as we do with knives, cars, tall buildings etc, accept a level of risk in order that those of us fortunate enough not to be killed by any such thing, can still lead full and rewarding lives.

Incidentally, it appears he also tried to set the school on fire.

So? Arson is a very common way of getting back at people and organisations that individuals perceive have wronged them. It's also far, far less lethal as a method of murder, because of the safety measures we have to deal with accidental fires. There is also no way to effectively legislate against fuels, accelerants, and ignition sources. Guns on the other hand, are quite straightforward to restrict (public opinion is all you need on your side).

I should add that ideally, problems like this would be addressed by society changing to limit the development of psychologies like this. But realistically, that's just not feasible. If as a society you are prepared to accept the occasional spate of murders like this, then that's your collective choice. I think the argument against guns used in conventional crime and crimes of passion (even planned ones) is much weaker by the way - the former will get their guns illegally for the most part, and the latter will use whatever's available. Guns make those crimes somewhat more lethal of course, but the results are far more limited (1-a handful of involved people). Some societies will nevertheless prefer to eliminate legal guns from the equation entirely. I think that's way over the top.
 
Last edited:
I can only lead you to the evidence. I can't make you accept it.
Please show where anyone says they would not report a school shooting in progress.


There are thousands of other videos on YouTube with a specific school name, a description of a violent event and when it would happen?
You've checked the other thousands of videos to be sure that this one was unique?


I get emails in my inbox most days telling me to do all sorts of things, but I've learnt about spam and ignore them. I also get emails from people I know telling me things, but I've learnt to be sceptical about most of the tales that get forwarded. If I happened across a video of a teenager waving a gun around and making threats, I suspect I would be very unlikely to call anyone about it since it's exactly the sort of thing many teenagers with access to a camera are likely to do, and in most cases it leads no further. If it related to a local school, I might do something on the grounds it might possible to check something out (my kids have contacts at most of them), but otherwise I'd just put it down as one of those things. Even after what has just happened. But then, I'm not about to kill anyone I see on a plane who has a gun, either.
 

Back
Top Bottom