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Intelligent Evolution?

One final point, re: Humans direct the nature of technological changes which nature does not. What about behives? Or nests? Or tools used by animals? Did these evolve?

Additionally, I would argue that up until the point that we understood a particular technological trait, say aerodynamics, it most certainly was trial and error. Even after we understood it, trial and error was used; someone would have a good idea, and test it. If it worked, it would be used, and if it didn't it would not.

Exactly... and nothing is "irreducibly complex"--it's all based on copying successful information from before and tweaking it a bit. The first successful airplane design inspired replications of that design... and it's that design that has been tweaked and honed via the environmental inputs (human intentions--purposeful or not) which copy and occasionally tweak the information along the way.

The losing designs (such as the 1899 prototype) were not copied and so, did not evolve. The information did not have what it took to get copied. Only the design that finally built a plane that flew was replicated again and again and tweaked over time.

Information that gets itself copied drives evolution--biological, technological, or idealogical.
 
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And yet airplanes and toaster ovens share nothing in common.

But... a toaster oven can fill a niche on an airplane....just as bacteria can fill a niche in our gut and anemones can fill a niches on a reef and bacterial insertions have been filling niches on genomes for eons.
 
I'd say there is "direction" or bias driven by environmental constraints... every living thing must evolve strategies to survive and convert energy into matter until it gets to copy at least some of it's info.-- replication evolves "towards" the creation of more efficient replicators--

The internet evolves to store and amass and hone and replicate more intricate and interwoven information-- is that a "direction" or "purpose"? We do the best we can to describe what is going on via our language (which is also evolving). But it's hard to undo human egocentrism and to unlearn wrong information.

Human "intent" biases information in a "direction"-- but that just makes it, in essence, a part of natural selection honing information over time in a direction. Predators hone the direction of prey and disasters put huge constraints by leaving a much smaller pool of replicators, etc.

I'm not sure I quite agree with you here, although it could just be word usage. I would describe the "direction" in nature as a "goal", with "direction" meaning directed mutations; mutations which are made to specifically change a sequence with an "end product" in mind. In nature, there is no end product. However, there is a goal: more efficient reproduction.
 
Exactly... and nothing is "irreducibly complex"--it's all based on copying successful information from before and tweaking it a bit. The first successful airplane design inspired replications of that design... and it's that design that has been tweaked and honed via the environmental inputs (human intentions--purposeful or not) which copy and occasionally tweak the information along the way.

The losing designs (such as the 1899 prototype) were not copied and so, did not evolve. The information did not have what it took to get copied. Only the design that finally built a plane that flew was replicated again and again and tweaked over time.

Information that gets itself copied drives evolution--biological, technological, or idealogical.

Indeed. I've often thought that a definition of evolution is simply the change in informational content of a system over time.
 
But... a toaster oven can fill a niche on an airplane....just as bacteria can fill a niche in our gut and anemones can fill a niches on a reef and bacterial insertions have been filling niches on genomes for eons.

Granted.
 
I'm not sure I quite agree with you here, although it could just be word usage. I would describe the "direction" in nature as a "goal", with "direction" meaning directed mutations; mutations which are made to specifically change a sequence with an "end product" in mind. In nature, there is no end product. However, there is a goal: more efficient reproduction.

Well what would you call constraints that bias change in a direction... for example, animals become more venomous to avoid predation and predators evolve techniques to deal with the venom or to avoid the venomous... duck rape has made for some really elaborate genitalia in both sexes that drive the evolution of each other, antibiotics drive bacterial resistance as do pesticides... it doesn't change the mutation rates... it just puts on a selective pressure that makes survival seem directional-- a poodle becomes more poodly... an eohippus becomes more zebra like in one setting and more donkey like in another, etc. Just as human selection biases the evolution of information in a given direction--so, too, do other environmental inputs in a similar manner. I don't know of the right words to capture the selection bias of the environment-- but I see humans as being such a selection bias towards the information that they process, copy, and tweak. What we see as an end product in technology or human memeplexes (languages, religion, etc.) is just the current incarnation of how far the information has evolved at present. We can use the internet to meet immediate goals just like a spider get build a web to get food... but we cannot control what happens to that information afterwards...who copies it and takes it further....who ignores it...etc.
 
Well what would you call constraints that bias change in a direction... for example, animals become more venomous to avoid predation and predators evolve techniques to deal with the venom or to avoid the venomous... duck rape has made for some really elaborate genitalia in both sexes that drive the evolution of each other, antibiotics drive bacterial resistance as do pesticides... it doesn't change the mutation rates... it just puts on a selective pressure that makes survival seem directional-- a poodle becomes more poodly... an eohippus becomes more zebra like in one setting and more donkey like in another, etc. Just as human selection biases the evolution of information in a given direction--so, too, do other environmental inputs in a similar manner. I don't know of the right words to capture the selection bias of the environment-- but I see humans as being such a selection bias towards the information that they process, copy, and tweak. What we see as an end product in technology or human memeplexes (languages, religion, etc.) is just the current incarnation of how far the information has evolved at present. We can use the internet to meet immediate goals just like a spider get build a web to get food... but we cannot control what happens to that information afterwards...who copies it and takes it further....who ignores it...etc.

Granted, but I still think "direction" is the wrong word, although that could be because of athropomorphic biases associated with the word. If anything, I would say evolution only has one 'direction'. Things will not evolve which are less able to reproduce then contemporary creatures. Thus, any 'direction' is always 'forward' in that things will not evolve backwards unless the environment changes in such a way that a previous 'version' of the creature can now reproduce more successfully.
 
I agree. And I'm sure I'll eventually run into a better way to describe how environmental constraints "direct" (or bias) evolution... In any case, human intent is just such a selective pressure-- so are evolutionary arms races between predator and prey and sexual selection and environmental upheavals...They put pressure on the system "driving" evolution "forward" faster while extensively pruning away competitors in the process.

Like this... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19733274/
 
Please don’t misunderstand me and conclude that I continue to follow this thread; I don’t, but I thought I’d just post a recent conversation that I had with the time traveler (TT) in the museum:

TT: OK, that was very informative, thanks, but I really must be getting back now.
Me: Well, I'm just pleased I could be of help, showing you, by example, how machines have developed very similarly to animals by incremental improvement over time.
TT: Actually, before I go, I don’t really understand how the design development process for the Mercedes car happened, that makes it analogous to evolution. It seems to me that there could have been some intelligence involved with forethought and intent, not to mention the ability to select beneficial changes over disadvantage changes artificially. Doesn't hat lead to a definite distinction between the two processes?

At this point in the conversation I decide, in the interests of simplicity and comprehension, to introduce a few white lies into my explanation. It goes like this:

Me: Well TT, what happens is this:
There’s a Mercedez factory down the road where the very earliest car was made (I’ll not go into detail about how that first model came about; nobody can really answer the same question about animals). Now the factory is run by two different types of very simple beings; one type assembles the cars from instructions (let’s call it code, if you like). These types are called ‘assemblers’. The other type occasionally make changes to the design. These types we’ll call ‘engineers’.
TT: So, do the assemblers think much about what they’re doing, and how they could assemble the cars differently, or better, for example?
Me: Oh no, they just blindly follow the code time after time, turning out the same car model exactly like and in the same way as the previous one.
TT: And what about the engineers; don’t they give any thought to the occasional changes that they make to the code?
Me: No, they don’t. They use a random number generator linked to the code which determines which part of the code to alter, in what way and to what degree. I guess it generates three separate factors somehow that are independently applied. Incidentally, not every part of the code can be changed in any way whatsoever and by any conceivable degree. The Random Number Generator is set with limits such that radical changes are generally not allowed, which I believe is similar to how evolutionary change works.
TT: So, after these alterations to the model’s code are made, and the assemblers start making the changes, what happens then; how does the company determine what alterations are good and what are bad?
Me: Well, the cars are simply sent out to the showrooms, just like the unaltered ones were, for sale. People come into the showroom and compare the new car with other cars out there in the marketplace. If they like the alterations, then that’s reflected in increased sales, and the production rate is increased to take advantage. If people don’t like the alterations then they tend to buy an alternative car that’s on the market instead. Sales fall, so the alteration is dropped and they go back to making the previous model and try a different randomly generated alteration.
TT: I see, so the success of the car over the long term is measured by its ability to survive in the marketplace against the competition?
Me: Yes, that’s right.
TT: OK, that all seems to make good sense, but it does seem a rather inefficient way of going about things.
Me: What do you mean?
TT: Well, presumably roughly the same number of bad alterations are introduced as good alterations. Is there not some way of assessing the likely success of the alterations before they’re put into production.
Me: Well, I suppose so, but how?
TT: Well here’s a thought: why don’t the engineers, instead of making random changes to the code, try to assess in advance what they think might be a good change, based on what they know about what people are looking for in a car, and only make those kinds of changes?
Me: I suppose so, but what will that achieve?
TT: Well, I realize that it will only end up with the same or similar results as just carrying on doing what they’re doing right now, but it would save a lot of abortive cost, and it would lead to a much higher likelihood of only increasingly beneficial cars being sent to the showrooms!
Me: You know what TT, you’re not as primitive as I figured you were. That’s exactly how Mercedez Benz actually develop their cars. They assess and predict what the future market requires and introduce alterations accordingly. They could, of course, just make random alterations and see what survives, as I described to you above, but they would soon be out of business.
TT: So design development really is no different from evolution when you look at it like that. The only real difference is that prior assessment and testing of possibly beneficial alterations to the code have been introduced essentially for convenience and commercialism; alterations that would not be necessary otherwise for designs to develop the way they do.
Me: Exactly TT. Hey, you’d better get going; you’re gonna be late for dinner!

OK; I'm outta here again. :D
 
Me: No, they don’t. They use a random number generator linked to the code which determines which part of the code to alter, in what way and to what degree. I guess it generates three separate factors somehow that are independently applied. Incidentally, not every part of the code can be changed in any way whatsoever and by any conceivable degree. The Random Number Generator is set with limits such that radical changes are generally not allowed, which I believe is similar to how evolutionary change works.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, this is not how technological development works. Engineers make deliberate decisions. As jimbob explained, there were some fairly specific problems with the designs of the first Supermarine Spitfires:

Early versions lacked a fuel injection system, which meant that it, unlike the BF109, couldn't pull negative g without losing power (which was bad in a dogfight). Work was done with the express aim of fixing that prolem.


In other words, the design of the spitfire was changed specifically to the correct the fact that it would stall out when it pulled negative g. In the Samoan moth example, the mutation that made the males immune to the wolbachia parasite that was killing them during embryonic development happened without any purpose. It was retained because it served a purpose (i.e., allowing males to survive to adulthood and reproduce), but it didn't happen because the males needed to survive to adulthood and reproduce or so that the males needed to survive to adulthood and reproduce. In other words, biological evolution and technological development happen in fundamentally different ways: technological development allow changes to be made with the express purpose of improving the design whereas biological evolution doesn't.
 
Please define "intelligent", and then explain how there is no pre-defined goal in natural selection; the goal to be able to replicate more effectively.

Maybe "any intelligently pre-defined" goal is a better choice of words:

If I use an evolutionary algorithm to develop a better transistor, I willhave some key perfiormance indicators, Blocking voltage, switching-energy loss, switching speed, cost etc. and will write a selection algorithm that chooses which instances of each generation to "breed", accordibg to the fitnes criteria, in fact this usually uses fitness weighting that then is applied to a pseudorandom selection criteria, so the iterations with better fitness scores are more likely to be selected, but each iteration dose have a finite chance of being used as a "parent" for the next generation .

If a farmer is selectively breeding sheep for milk-yield, say for cheese-making, then (s)he will breed from those ewes that produce the best milk yield. However should one have a particularly good fleece, then that sheep might also be selected.

There is a direction to this evolutionary technique that is not merely towards a higher average number of breeding offspring per parent. This direction is intelligently defined and specified.

Evolution has no intelligently-defined direction, the optimisation is towards producing a higher average number of breeding offspring per parent. Sometimes this involves asexual reproduction, sometimes it involves sexual reproduction. Sometimes it involves producing a vast number of non-breeding offspring too (e.g. bees, or even naked mole-rats). Often it involves the "sacrifice" of a parent, and other times the premature curtailing of the grandmother's breeding ability, which means she is able to help in looking after her grandchildren and doesn't have any dependent children of her own to look after. (Note the avoidance of the phrase "so that she can look after her grandchildren without any dependent children", which would imply a direction or goal).

ID proponents deny that imperfect self-replication is necessary and sufficient for evolution; they claim that there needs to be an intelligence guiding the direction of the evolution (either by divine selection, and/or by divinely-guided mutation).

I would say the least-bad definetion of "ntelligence" in this case that I can think of is "self aware" and with "motives" (which is still begging the question", I know...).

Eugenics could be considered an attempt at performing selective breeding on one's own species, although for some reason most eugenicists always seemed to think that the their breeding success should be maixmised...

Natural selection occurs because only those replicators which actually produce replicating copies replicate. This is tautalogical. There is no need to invoke intelligence, whilst with artificial selection, there is. Without imperfect self-replication, artificial selection (of some type) is needed.

Not quite. When it comes to artificial selection, imperfect replication is often utilized to produce new breeds. If a new breed is considered adequate per the selection criteria (such as, it's pretty enough), it will reproduce more often because it is selected for. This is exactly the same as a new trait arising in nature and being selected for because it enables more efficient reproduction in an ecological niche.

And your definition is not quite accurate either. I would define natural selection as "the phenomenon wherein alleles which facilitate more efficient replication of themselves, and others in an organism's genome, will be more likely to be replicated, and thus increase in frequency in a population." This is not a tautology.

I agree that selective breeding is a pretty good analogy for evolution. This is because the organisms are simultaneously subject to "dumb evolution", due to their imperfect self-replication as well as the "intelligently guided selective breeding".

In the case you proposed, I would disagree that is is exactly the same, because once the trait has arisen, it would start to be actively bred for; this means that future generations would be deliberately "optimised" towards "pretty features". There is intent in the optimisation, and this intent is from an intelligent agent. It is a grey area, because but I would class that as a "fortuitous trait" that "intelligence liked".

ID proponents would argue that in the case of evolution, this intelligent agent is divine and worked to produce something like humanity. (Selective breeding of amoeba towards multi-cellular life, then towards vertebrates, then mammals, then intelligent worshipers or some-such argument). See Iammme's ideas about evolution for a similar spin... Intelligence as a goal of evolution in itself, as opposed to being merely a trait that improved reproductive success.
 
southwind said:
Me: Well, the cars are simply sent out to the showrooms, just like the unaltered ones were, for sale. People come into the showroom and compare the new car with other cars out there in the marketplace. If they like the alterations, then that’s reflected in increased sales, and the production rate is increased to take advantage. If people don’t like the alterations then they tend to buy an alternative car that’s on the market instead. Sales fall, so the alteration is dropped and they go back to making the previous model and try a different randomly generated alteration.

There is still intellignece directing the selection in this case.


"Sales fall, so the alteration is dropped and they go back to making the previous model and try a different randomly generated alteration."

What constitutes a fall in sales, is it weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly? What if the model still makes a profit? What if the price is altered?

For example.
 
Yes, indeed, human intent is a powerful selective force when it comes to human generated information... but the bottom line is the same... information evolves better information processors over time... Whether the information is coded in DNA, language, digital data, music, etc. Information that can get itself copied drives evolution--whether humans intended such a goal or not. Whether humans are tweaking the information intentionally or not. They are, in essence, just selective forces.

Often humans want things to "catch on", but they don't--and the next thing to catch on is unpredictable-- but the game is on and the information is evolving and it will produce seeming miraculous things-- and humans will act as strong selective forces whether they intend it, or not.

The only thing that is really in charge is information that can get itself copied and drive the evolution of better information processors. From our point of view it all looks top down--but it's ALL bottom up. A tornado in a junkyard building a 747 IS top down so it is the opposite of evolution--it's a strawman that is the opposite of the facts (747 were assembled via information honed through time with designs selected for, tweaked by, and tested on humans)

This strawman was created to obscure the real "miracle"-- natural selection-- information selected and honed through time. The process that makes unfathomable intricacies never needs to appeal to something higher-- it needs to work it's way backwards from what came before. When people ask how did this "X" come to be, and they have a tool for figuring it out-- then they also have a tool for asking how did religions come to be... how come people think there is divine knowledge? Why does the tornado/airplane analogy work for getting people to think that scientists think this came about randomly?

I think intelligent design proponents hate this... because it means there is no reason for anyone to appeal to them or their god for an explanation. It lessens the role for any god, and it makes collective human intelligence the pinnacle of intelligence-- "Intelligent design" is all about mystery... and natural selection is the opposite... it's about solving the mystery--about how something so seemingly "miraculous" can be built by a simple algorithm based on information that is best at getting itself copied. Even when we talk of humans "designing" something... it's really humans taking information that has been assimilated and tweaking it and recombining it in new ways so that it makes something "new and improved" which can them be tested in the environment to see if others want to copy the design or add to it or take bits and pieces from it. Human intent is just another selection force. We come loaded with information from instincts to education to language and we process and assemble it and copy it as we evolved to do.

Yes, our "intelligence" is cool, because it allows us to process and tweak information with an intent... to learn from mistakes... to teach others--to "speed" up and "direct" the evolution of information, but, from the point of view of information (memes, ideas, imitation, etc), human intelligence evolved to process it, recombine it, and copy it and send it to the future... just as creatures evolved (From DNA's point of view) to process it and copy it and recombine it to send it to the future.

There is no intention on the part of information-- it just so happens that information that can and does get copied (no matter how it is coded) drives evolution AND drives the evolution of better, faster, information processors, copiers, and recombiners. That's what is happening with computers. Information either moves forward or it dies out along with the stuff that processes it.

That is true whether the information is coded in DNA or language or digital data. If it can't get itself copied-- by humans if necessary-- then it can't be a part of an evolving system.

I think this is powerful information to understand. I wish I could convey it better, and I understand why people want to argue against it. But it does NOT play into creationist hands... everything about creationists has to do with not being able to explain something-- not being able to understand-- because then it seems impossible without the "magic designer on high". They want human intelligence to be miraculous--outside the natural world--"designed by god"-- but human intelligence and all things designed by humans are all part of the natural world of evolving information systems selected for by the environment. Yes, we can and do tweak information systems (airplane designs and genomes--bioluminescent mice)-- but that just speeds up or tweaks the direction of a branch on the tree of evolving information while lopping off others in the process. We have brains that evolved to do this-- we like doing this-- we feel powerful and like the gods we invent-- we get dopamine rushes from the stuff we "create" or take further or "evolve" or grow-- the information in our genes ensured that we'd have brains that would enjoy being information processors...

I hope this makes sense to someone... at least a little. This is the essence of Dawkins, the selfish gene and the notion of a meme. Daniel Dennett has taken this further. They all do speak very well on the topic and they all gave great talks that are available for download on these issues. Moreover... everything about the ID movement and their strategies are all over the web-- Eugenie Scott's videos are comprehensive on the topic regarding their strategies.

As a teacher of teens, I can assure that the analogy in the OP is useful, as many have dropped by here to say. They give an intuitive understanding as to why the tornado/junkyard analogy is a strawman and a glimpse as to how selection over time creates seeming miracles. No human can visualize eons of time... but any kid can see the rapidity of evolving technology and understand how information is selected and honed over time by the environment (in the case of human designs...it's by human desires.... in the case of life... it's by what lives to reproduce the most.) The people who can't or don't understand the analogy or who think that human intent invalidates the analogy or plays into the creationist hands are the minority and it is their own misunderstandings that seem to get in the way.

Namely, they confuse "information" for what it codes for.

They cannot see how human intent is just another force that biases or speeds up selection in a given direction...as do other environmental things.

They think the word intelligence or design will automatically be usurped by the ID crowd to support their obfuscation techniques despite the fact that the analogies the ID crowd never emphasize the selection process and always emphasize this notion that scientist think this all came about "randomly".

But analogies are just teaching tools. So are strawmen. They both are ways of conveying information. The analogy in the OP is a good way of counteracting the strawman in the OP so that correct information can evolve in the brain without having to unlearn wrong information in the process. The longer someone's thinking has been mired in "top down" design thinking and "human intelligence is mysterious" thinking-- and humans are special and the pinnacle of the universe thinking... the less any amount of evidence, analogy, or information will work. Those who are certain they know all there is to know on a topic, have lost the capacity to learn more. And religion warns that it's "dangerous to bite from the tree of knowledge"-- you just need to have faith because it's "arrogant" to try to understand "god"... and god wants you to "spread the good news"-- "go forth and multiply"-- start indoctrinating young...

The latter is information that gets itself spread just as easily or more easily than facts in the human mind. A good solid analogy on which to build further understanding can be a great foundation helping people think their way out.
 
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Intelligence and self awareness evolved...

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/ramachandran07/ramachandran07_index.html

Information coded in genes evolved to produce brains that code and process information (in "memes"-- ideas, language, math, symbols, formulas, directions, blueprints, etc.)...

We evolved to be information processors and replicators...

When humans use intent to mutate a design or alter it in someway, they are merely acting as selective forces which speed up the evolution of information. Humans die... the ideas they process, take further, and replicate can and do take on lives of their own-- like the Wright brothers airplane design prototype...

Things like people "die"--they are subject to entropy-- but information isn't...and it's code much less so than it's replicators. Information drives evolution.
 
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In regards to information evolving in human culture... human intent is information's way of getting copied, recombined, and tweaked. When we talk of self replication we are really just talking about information being able to get itself copied.

It's the difference between seeing the world as something created to bring forth you (which any entity could assume) and understanding that you evolved to fill a niche is this speck of space at this time-- there is no plan... intelligence evolved like everything else and it evolved because information that can get itself copied begets more and better copiers of information that can get itself copied....
 
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If a tree is no longer standing, is it helpful to say that it is no longer standing because of neurons firing in someone's brain; or that it was in their way, and they cut it down? Unless one is discussing neuroscience, the first option is less uesful.

A tree is no longer standing, was this the result of intent if:

a) The wind blew it down? (Animists would have believed this was due to a supernatural cause of wind)

b) It was in someone's way and thay cut it down? (Even though their "thoughts" are still the result of physical processes).
 
but one knows beforehand what it will do, because the selection criteria have been defined by an intelligent agent.

Dear Lord, though your plan may be mysterious unto us mere mortals we trust in your Infinite Plan.

Amen.
Are you saying that if a farmer is selectively breeding a cattle for improved milk-yield, then that the farmer doesn't know that the successfull outcome of the breeding will involve a cow with an improved milk-yield? This is the aim of that selective breeding programme.

What do you mean here? I am talking about evolutionary algorithms, of which I consider selective breeding to be a subset.

There are no evolutionary algorithms without selection criteria. Are you implying that I am claiming something mysterious for the fact that the selection criteria are aimed at implimenting the requirement specifications when intelligent agents define them?
 
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