perhaps not everything is lost for astrology

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Since you were kind enough to respond pretty quickly, I feel that I should reciprocate. Here is my response to your specific points:

<< SNIP >>

I'll give you one out of 100 for finding out (roughly) where Geelong is, and two out of 100 for picking the Violet Crumble fetish.

Norm

Ah. So 100% accurate then?

With the information you provided any real astrologer should be able to calculation when you should have been born.

Or possibly where! :snicker:

 

[ben m]

If you are trying to say that a four mile difference and a one minute error in "birth time" negates your predictions

Not to mention that it's hard to specify where you were born to within four miles. For example, "Phoenix" wouldn't specific enough---it's easily 50 miles across---nor "Manhattan", nor even "Uptown Manhattan".

 

[ben m]

a difference of one minute means up to four months in the calculations

I'm curious about this. What aspect of the stars is changing so fast that you need calculations accurate to 1 minute? I keep hearing things about thus-and-such planet being in thus-and-such constellation, which has a granularity of ~1 month, and thus-and-such constellation being overhead, which has a granularity of ~2 hours. Does the orbital phase of the Hulse-Taylor binary pulsar figure in somehow?

In fact, it takes a pretty handy sextant-user to even measure times to within a minute; it's certainly something that mariners (and classical Greek and Arab astonomers) could have done. Until 1300-ish, when the first tower clocks began appearing, most people didn't bother measuring times of day, except for "dawn", "noon", "dusk", "midnight". Clock-regulated churchbells would have given them hour-ish precision in the 1300-1700 range, *maybe* minute-ish precision---if anyone cared to look---1700-1850; after that, with the rise of the railroads, people started carrying pocket watches and actually knowing the time.

And yet I recall people "doing astrology" pre-1850, when none of their subjects would have known a birth minute, and indeed fairly few would have been as precise as FDU's "around 3AM". Was that all rubbish, then?

 

[Hokulele]

I'm curious about this. What aspect of the stars is changing so fast that you need calculations accurate to 1 minute?

To be fair, many astronomical events happen relatively quickly. I remember a few years ago seeing an occulation of Saturn by the Moon with a 4" telescope (very cool!). The whole event lasted under an hour. With the inner planets (Venus and Mercury) and the Moon, things can change fairly quickly. If you take a look at the star charts in a good astronomy magazine or web site, you can see how much Mercury shifts per night. Depending on the where Mercury is at the time of birth, it could conceivably be in different signs from one minute to the next.

However, for the most part you are correct. Claiming to require high precision and accuracy in time and latitude/longitude just gives an astrologer an "out" if their predictions are incorrect. If I were casting a chart for someone, I would only ask for clarification if it turned out that it was necessary due to cusps or other conjunctions.

Note - the only charts I have ever cast for people other than myself have been to show them how poorly astrology works. Well, except where I had to cast a chart for my history of astronomy professor to pass a test.

And yet I recall people "doing astrology" pre-1850, when none of their subjects would have known a birth minute, and indeed fairly few would have been as precise as FDU's "around 3AM". Was that all rubbish, then?

Yup. And it is still rubbish.

 

[PBTree]

I'm curious about this. What aspect of the stars is changing so fast that you need calculations accurate to 1 minute? I keep hearing things about thus-and-such planet being in thus-and-such constellation, which has a granularity of ~1 month, and thus-and-such constellation being overhead, which has a granularity of ~2 hours. Does the orbital phase of the Hulse-Taylor binary pulsar figure in somehow?

In fact, it takes a pretty handy sextant-user to even measure times to within a minute; it's certainly something that mariners (and classical Greek and Arab astonomers) could have done. Until 1300-ish, when the first tower clocks began appearing, most people didn't bother measuring times of day, except for "dawn", "noon", "dusk", "midnight". Clock-regulated churchbells would have given them hour-ish precision in the 1300-1700 range, *maybe* minute-ish precision---if anyone cared to look---1700-1850; after that, with the rise of the railroads, people started carrying pocket watches and actually knowing the time.

And yet I recall people "doing astrology" pre-1850, when none of their subjects would have known a birth minute, and indeed fairly few would have been as precise as FDU's "around 3AM". Was that all rubbish, then?

And... What part of the birth is when you were born. Is it when the baby crowns, is it when the feet finally pop out. Or is it when the umbilical is cut. Maybe when the doc smacks you on the ar.e and the screaming starts. There could be quite a few minutes between the first and last in that lot.

 

[Hokulele]

And... What part of the birth is when you were born. Is it when the baby crowns, is it when the feet finally pop out. Or is it when the umbilical is cut. Maybe when the doc smacks you on the ar.e and the screaming starts. There could be quite a few minutes between the first and last in that lot.

I think proluna addressed this early on; for her, birth is the moment the umblical cord is cut. * shrug *

I asked why she thought that was more important than an event such as conception, or the start of brain activity, but received no answer. It is starting to look like she won't be back.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Judiciary, you are right, is predictive astrology based on the idea of twelve areas of interest for you. And with one person's natal chart you can, by derivation of the chart, find out if granny is going to survive that surgical procedure, if cousin Louis is going to succeed at climbing the Everest or will die in the attempt... whatever.

I had this idea of judiciary being QUITE unknown because ALMOST nobody wants to know the day of his death or things like that while an increasing number of people are just worried about whether they are going to meet Mr. Right tomorrow and if they are going to have many kids together (the sweet side of the thing I mean)

See you, adriana

This should be quite simple to test. Proluna, are you saying that if I gave you the day, year, and time that my grandfather was born, along with the latitude and longitude of the hospital at which he was born, you would be able to tell me on what day he died? If you could, I'd be highly impressed. Is this your claim?

 

[JohnChasWebb]

Well beloved skepticals, here you are a real treat you can feast on!
I have been studying judiciary astrology for five years already and would love to engage in some interesting discussions with you.
I know you are going to say it's not a science, I will agree, nobody lived long enough to follow the necessary steps to determine that because it is absolutely beyond our reach...

I know there are too many people making fortunes out of inocent-silly believers (those should not be called astrologers) (It is absolutely stupid to say your dog is a libra therefore it's very stable and sociable, say that about a furious pitbull for example) (and it is criminal to offer to change your destiny and create a new natal chart for you so you can avoid problems, illnesses and so much more, will they get you a blind date with Brad or Anjelina also?)

I know you are going to say horoscopes are rubbish, I will agree with you.

But, is anybody interested in having a moderately intelligent exchange of ideas about it?

All the best to all, love A.

Re: astrology

This reply is aside from any determination about whether or not there is any substance to astrology.

1) The Roman Catholic Church, through its Gregorian Calendar, has trashed astrology. Astrology was never intended to be implemented via the tropical calendar which has nothing to do with 'real time' planetary positions. As such, all Western horoscopes based upon the Gregorian Calendar's scheme of things are of minimal value.
2) The Western astrological model became a subject of ridicule after the invention of the telescope revealed that the Earth was not the center of the solar system. However, the ridicule (in this instance) is misplaced because it is the 'individual' who is at the center of the horoscope. An individual who happens to be situated on the Earth.
3) The underlying archetypes of astrology (Venus, Mars, the 12 archetypal signs, etc.) have great value in asisting one to erase the 'purely religious cultural cosmology"... for example: the crucified Christ, martyrs, holocosts, and generally the pathetic (of pathos) cosmology of Western Civilization.
4) Astrology, if 'scientific' at all is a 'soft science' (intuitive, etc.) and belongs included within the concept of the 'feminine'... (psychology, astrology, etc.). In other words no clear provable scientific 'cause and effect' relationship because heaps of intuition are involved.
So, the dissing of astrology is yet (probably) another way that the patriarchial system disenfranchises anything considered 'feminine' or emanating from the realm of the feminine.
5) Religions, just like astrology, attempt to reconnect us to 'things in the heavens'. Whether the 'things in the heavens' are "God the Father" or "Jupiter, The God of Fortune" is a matter of one's cult memberships.
6) Since every atom in the universe is in a gravitational relationship to every other atom then it does NOT seem (to me) that it is absurd to believe that things in the sky (heavens) may have subtle effects upon us.
7) Christianity disses astrology because (among other reasons) astrology/astronomy used to be a singular 'science' (start of last millennium). So dissing astrology was the first volley in the war between 'science' and religion.
8) HOWSOEVER!!!! Can one suppose that the New Testament's "Son (Jesus) and the 12 Apostles is a deeply veiled alegory regarding "The Sun and the 12 signs of the Zodiac"? I surely do.

I believe that astrology's archetypes are an effective antidote for the abominations of organized religion. Meaning those culturally imposed belief systems (the 'abominations) that our culture sticks into our heads before we reach the third grade.

 

[Hokulele]

8) HOWSOEVER!!!! Can one suppose that the New Testament's "Son (Jesus) and the 12 Apostles is a deeply veiled alegory regarding "The Sun and the 12 signs of the Zodiac"?

No, one cannot.

I believe that astrology's archetypes are an effective antidote for the abominations of organized religion. Meaning those culturally imposed belief systems (the 'abominations) that our culture sticks into our heads before we reach the third grade.

Gah, that sounds like that stupid Zeitgeist movie.

 

[fromdownunder]

And... What part of the birth is when you were born. Is it when the baby crowns, is it when the feet finally pop out. Or is it when the umbilical is cut. Maybe when the doc smacks you on the ar.e and the screaming starts. There could be quite a few minutes between the first and last in that lot.

I was actually wondering this myself. (Yes, I know that an answer has already been suggested)

I suppose a further question would be, given the level of accuracy (time needed within a minute of "birth", exact location etc...) required, would two babies born at the same time in the same hospital (highly possible) have different horoscopes, if one was born on the third floor and one was born on the tenth floor?

I await the response, if any, with trepidation. A non response will not, however, keep me awake at nights.

Norm

 

[Apathia]

Your Horoscope for today:

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/horoscope

 

[PBTree]

I await the response, if any, with trepidation. A non response will not, however, keep me awake at nights.

Norm

Maybe not this but what should keep you awake is the fact that "the bombers are coming", I have seen it in the stars.

The constellation Ablett will wax then wan and the MOONey will become aggressive again because of Uranus, meaning a 6 week stint on the bench of Saturn.

 

[lionking]

Maybe not this but what should keep you awake is the fact that "the bombers are coming", I have seen it in the stars.

The constellation Ablett will wax then wan and the MOONey will become aggressive again because of Uranus, meaning a 6 week stint on the bench of Saturn.

Now if there was ever a case for a fraudalent and deceptive prediction, this is it. Hopefully you will find out the true meaning of "judicial astrology".

 

[Cuddles]

I think proluna addressed this early on; for her, birth is the moment the umblical cord is cut. * shrug *

I may have missed a later post, but the only one I noticed was where she refered to "the moment of birth and the ubilical cord is cut", which suggests to me two entirely different events. I doubt she has ever really thought about it.

Of course, the whole question is largely irrelevant since no-one actually knows their birth time to the minute. You really think the time on your birth certificate is accurate? Considering everything that's happening in a hospital, especially during a birth, making a note of the exact time isn't exactly high on the list of priorities. You'll be lucky to have it accurate to the nearest quarter of an hour, let alone minutes. And according to who's watch? Hospital staff don't carry atomic clocks around with them. A nurse's watch will probably be good to within a minute or two, but no better than that.

Of course, this really says everything that is needed about astrology. If something seems to be accurate, it's because astrology is so amazing it can cover for a few inaccuracies in data. If it isn't accurate, it's because the infomation provided was either not accurate enough or wrong. Somehow it never seems to be astrology's fault.

 

[Tirdun]

Re: astrology
1) The Roman Catholic Church, through its Gregorian Calendar, has trashed astrology.

You'd prefer the Julian calendar? Add 10 days... maybe 11. Doesn't make up for constellation precession, but you could shift to a true Platonic calendar, I suppose. Good luck with that.

2) The Western astrological model became a subject of ridicule after the invention of the telescope

For good reason

An individual who happens to be situated on the Earth.

Aha, so you're bringing frames into this? Ye gods, the math THAT will involve! Imagine calculating the orbit of Mars around the point of a person born in San Diego versus one born in London! Fantastic, let us know when you're done.

3) The underlying archetypes of astrology (Venus, Mars, the 12 archetypal signs, etc.)

Are of no value. My coffee cup has more of an effect on me than Venus. Especially after I empty it.

4) Astrology, if 'scientific' at all is a 'soft science' (intuitive, etc.) and belongs included within the concept of the 'feminine'... (psychology, astrology, etc.). In other words no clear provable scientific 'cause and effect' relationship because heaps of intuition are involved.

Which equates to and and "it doesn't work".
Oh and female=intuition=unprovable is a nice archaic touch. You'll score points with that.

Nothing beyond this point is required. Your "no clear provable" pretty much sums it up to guesswork and hit confirmation. Good luck with that calendar, though.

 

[quarky]

Conception seems like a less vague moment in time than birth.
Too bad its so hard to pin down.
The umbilical cord needn't be cut as soon as the baby pops out.
A good astrologer might want to postpone the cutting of the cord to get their child into a better horrorscope.

 

[ben m]

1) The Roman Catholic Church, through its Gregorian Calendar, has trashed astrology. Astrology was never intended to be implemented via the tropical calendar which has nothing to do with 'real time' planetary positions. As such, all Western horoscopes based upon the Gregorian Calendar's scheme of things are of minimal value.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only thing that the "calendar" does is to help you figure out where the stars are overhead. Jupiter has the same right ascension/declination right now whether you calculate it from a Julian calendar, French Republican calendar, or seconds-since-1/1/1970. I thought astrology was about the influences of the stars, not the particular words identifying the boxes in your day-planner.

3) The underlying archetypes of astrology (Venus, Mars, the 12 archetypal signs, etc.) have great value in asisting one to erase the 'purely religious cultural cosmology"... for example: the crucified Christ, martyrs, holocosts, and generally the pathetic (of pathos) cosmology of Western Civilization.

Replace "astrology (Venus ...) " with "Scientology", "Commedia del'arte", or "Harry Potter novels", and the above makes just as much sense. Heck, replace the word "astrology" with "Dr. John Gray, Ph.D." and you can keep the Mars and Venus references. Are you defending astrology as a source of allusions and imagery (with which I won't argue), or as a source of actual content, predictions, and correlations?

So, the dissing of astrology is yet (probably) another way that the patriarchial system disenfranchises anything considered 'feminine' or emanating from the realm of the feminine.

Lumping astrology under the "intuitive" arts and sciences is an insult to the actual intuitive arts and science; please note that Western academia has perfectly well-respected psychology, art, drama, literature, etc., programs, but not astrology. And labeling all of this as "emanating from the feminine" is patriarchical in itself---I don't know if you're generalizing from your own biases (e.g. "it's obvious to me that women are intuitive"), or from some weird theory, or from history ("All the great physicists were men" is the closest thing "intuitive arts are feminine" has to a historical basis, but it's as pointless and ungeneralizable a statement as "all of the great physicists were white"). Please don't try to explain, I don't really want to hear it, I just needed to vent that.

6) Since every atom in the universe is in a gravitational relationship to every other atom then it does NOT seem (to me) that it is absurd to believe that things in the sky (heavens) may have subtle effects upon us.

I can tell you exactly what gravitational effect Mars had on me at birth: an acceleration equal to GM/r^2, which applied to me, my mother, the nurses, the hospital, and the ground beneath it, resulting in a free-falling reference frame indistinguishable from any other; this is all true no matter where Mars is in the sky, its conjunctions, etc. You are welcome to calculate the tidal force---it's basically the difference between GMm/r^2 when computed for my head vs. for my feet.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I have the exact time and locations of my 2 children who are aged 4 and 15 months. If I give you these, can you tell me what major events have happened in their lives so far and when they occurred?

 

[quarky]

Why don't woosters hybridize more often?

You could double check your winning lottery numbers through multiple 'disciplines'.

astrology and numerology should team up.
Pick the time of birth; chose the name; cover all the bases.

Or, is there a competitive thing with woosters? Like, if you believe in alien crop circle production, you don't get to also believe in astrology?

is that how it works?

 

[Madalch]

I have the exact time and locations of my 2 children who are aged 4 and 15 months. If I give you these, can you tell me what major events have happened in their lives so far and when they occurred?

Oooooh! Oooohh! Pick me! Pick me!

Something important happened to the older child when s/he was about 2 and a half- maybe a younger sibling was born, or something to that effect......