travel back in time, naked

[The Man]

About 4500 to 5000 years ago it was the Bronze Age in Bohemia, sounds like fun.

There was a major religious festival in Sumeria celebrating the victory of the god of spring over the god of chaos, sounds like fun too.

The Sumerians developed number systems based on 6 and 12, you could introduce them to the hexadecimal system.

It’s the probable period for the first manufacture of iron objects, you could be the first person placed in iron shackles.

It’s the time of the earliest Trojan culture, although I don’t know if they were making prophylactics yet.

Wrestling became the first highly developed sport, you would be a shoe in for the beer and hot dog concessions.

Sumerians grow barley, bake bread, make beer and metal coins begin to replace barley as legal tender, so you’ve got suppliers for beer and hot dog buns and you do not have to worry about lugging around all that barley you would have gotten.

First reports of domesticated dogs in Egypt, so you could have pet.

Also evidence of lake dwellings in middle Europe, a European beach house doesn’t sound bad.

Sounds like lots to do and fun to be had by all. Sumeria would seem like the place to be at that time.



Ref: “The Timetables of History” by Bernard Grun copyright 1982

 

[Ysidro]

They'd kill me on sight. Hairless in funny places, you see.

Evidence?

 

[Upchurch]

What JREF really needs is a sci-fi forum... time travel, aliens, you name it!

We already have one. We call it "General Skepticism and the Paranormal"

 

[FenrisWolf]

You can have head in the clouds, but when people freeze to death for lack of garments, die from infections to injuries of their unshod feet, and starve because of a lack of proper storage of their food, you'll reevaluate the utility of such basic skills as tailoring, weaving, and tanning.

Right, because if I don't bring a shoemaker and a tailor, everybody is naked with no shoes. Please. The basic skills are just that -- basic. Anybody can develop those skills, and will do so with some practice. The crude shoes and clothes amateurs make won't fit perfectly nor be particularly long-lasting, but so what? They'll function well enough until the more advanced knowledge the group has is leveraged beyond where it matters.

Hell, the existing people of the time already had those skills figured out. No point in bringing back to the past knowledge that already exists there.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Right, because if I don't bring a shoemaker and a tailor, everybody is naked with no shoes. Please. The basic skills are just that -- basic. Anybody can develop those skills, and will do so with some practice. The crude shoes and clothes amateurs make won't fit perfectly nor be particularly long-lasting, but so what? They'll function well enough until the more advanced knowledge the group has is leveraged beyond where it matters.

When will you stop needing shoes?

 

[drkitten]

When will you stop needing shoes?

He'll stop needing to make shoes when he's established that his knowledge has sufficient value that he can buy them instead. When was the last time you made a pair of shoes for yourself?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

He'll stop needing to make shoes when he's established that his knowledge has sufficient value that he can buy them instead. When was the last time you made a pair of shoes for yourself?

Two years ago, but it was for the reasons I made linen thread - historical reenactment. Personally, I'd feel more comfortable with having the skills to be self-sufficent in the past than trying to integrate myself into the society of the past.

I suppose just selecting the most advanced techniques might work, though. Still, there are some steps you can't skip. The spinning wheel is an amazing piece of technology, and one well with introducing, just as much as the steam engine.

 

[drkitten]

Two years ago, but it was for the reasons I made linen thread - historical reenactment. Personally, I'd feel more comfortable with having the skills to be self-sufficent in the past than trying to integrate myself into the society of the past.

Well, I specifically read the OP as asking about how you would integrate with the existing society. I doubt that even 100 people would be sufficient to establsh an entirely self-sustaining and completely independent colony, and even if they were, a successful colony would have to deal with the locals at some point anyway, as soon as the locals realized that there was a new tribe in town that had some crops worth stealing. Whether you negotiate with them or shoot them down like animals with your high-tech flintlocks, you still need to interact in some way.

I suppose just selecting the most advanced techniques might work, though.

I doubt it. There would be little place in that colony for a Java programmer, for example, because it would take another thousand people to make the hardware, software, and infrastructure. That's a technique that's simply too advanced to be transplanted. Gasoline engines would come close to being untransplantable, too; without the ability to harvest and refine fuel, an engine is a large paperweight. Since your'e going back to the Bronze age, you can't rely on iron being available, so don't bring a Bessemer converter for making steel.

The spinning wheel would probably be usefu and transplantable, however, if you can build one. But as I recall, those are rather intricate pieces of wooden machinery. Are you that good a carpenter (using Bronze Age tools)?

 

[Loss Leader]

They'll function well enough until the more advanced knowledge the group has is leveraged beyond where it matters.

If your group is composed mostly of Navy Seals, their advanced knowledge is basically in how to use stealth and long range military equipment to assassinate military leaders in the field, spot fire for conventional military teams, extract valuable assets and some other odds and ends.

Since they're naked, their proficiency in using long-range sniper rifles should be useless as will their fantastic knowledge of scuba diving. Their parachuting skills will probably go underused as will their combat driving skills. What you will end up with is a bunch of men who are very strong and probably pretty good at using natural camoflauge.

Unfortunately, these skills will be almost useless at any time in prehistory. The phalanx formation was the dominant military tactic for three thousand years. In a world without effective projectile weapons or quick means to enter and exit a battle, it was popular because it worked. Navy Seal tactics are popular today because, in a world with projectile weapos and quick means to enter and exit a battle, they work.

Your Seals are going to have almost nothing to teach the people of the past. Worse than that, their training in hand-to-hand single combat will cause them to refuse to even participate in the phalanx, making them useless as soldiers.

You send back fifty Navy Seals and let me send back five lawyers. We'll see who thrives in Macedonia.

 

[drkitten]

Unfortunately, these skills will be almost useless at any time in prehistory. The phalanx formation was the dominant military tactic for three thousand years. In a world without effective projectile weapons or quick means to enter and exit a battle, it was popular because it worked.

Actually, my understanding is that the phalanx was not dominant for three thousand years, for the simple fact that the phalanx itself is a relatively high-tech invention that didn't appear until 800 BCE or thereabouts. I don't think there's any evidence that the Babylonians or Sumerians used them, for example. (They're usually associated, for obvious reasons, with Greece -- but even then they're a relatively modern concept. They're all over the place in Thucydides, but Homer never mentions them.)

Prior to the invention of the phalanx, most combats were settled via the age-old tactic of armed-mob, with individual combatants seeking out individual acts of glory in order to claim the spoils of battle. (Read the Illiad.)

None of which necessarily makes the Navy SEALs any more useful. They are probably superbly fit, superbly strong, and expert at unarmed combat. They're probably also so-so at best at fighting with swords, or in armor, or with shields.

But if you could actually introduce the phalanx in 3000 BCE, that alone would be valuable knowledge, since it would let you crush the other tribes.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I doubt it. There would be little place in that colony for a Java programmer, for example, because it would take another thousand people to make the hardware, software, and infrastructure. That's a technique that's simply too advanced to be transplanted. Gasoline engines would come close to being untransplantable, too; without the ability to harvest and refine fuel, an engine is a large paperweight. Since your'e going back to the Bronze age, you can't rely on iron being available, so don't bring a Bessemer converter for making steel.

I meant the most advanced technologies that could be implimented with the infrastructure at hand.

The spinning wheel would probably be usefu and transplantable, however, if you can build one. But as I recall, those are rather intricate pieces of wooden machinery. Are you that good a carpenter (using Bronze Age tools)?

They're not that complicated, actually. Everything's helt together with leather, motise and tenon joining (the technique for joining wood without using thread, rope, or nails.)

The only troubling part is getting the flywheel balanced. The flywheel's usually held together with spokes to lighten it, but you could easily carve it out of one piece of wood, rather than struggling with putting spindles in, and many wheels were.

A Louet spinning wheel's just as easy to make. The only metal you'd need in either case is for the teeth on the flyer. Those can be made of copper without a problem.

The spinning wheels we see look deceptively intricate because most of the pieces have been turned a lathe to made pretty. Speaking of which, lathes and drills would be a huge benefit, too.

 

[Loss Leader]

Actually, my understanding is that the phalanx was not dominant for three thousand years, for the simple fact that the phalanx itself is a relatively high-tech invention that didn't appear until 800 BCE or thereabouts.

Wikipedia says phalanx-like formations are found in history from 2400 BCE on. You are correct about the very regimented hoplite formation of ancient Greece.

 

[Loss Leader]

None of which necessarily makes the Navy SEALs any more useful. They are probably superbly fit, superbly strong, and expert at unarmed combat. They're probably also so-so at best at fighting with swords, or in armor, or with shields.

They're also going to be quite surprised to find out that the concept of the standing army was infrequently employed prior to more modern times. Few civilizations had enough surplus wealth to garrison soldiers. Those Navy Seals are going to be a little put out by being asked to farm for two and a half years before being needed for a battle.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Wikipedia says phalanx-like formations are found in history from 2400 BCE on. You are correct about the very regimented hoplite formation of ancient Greece.

You know, assuming you could find suitable horses, the stirrup, saddle, and lance would be a stunningly effective set against un ordered combatants. You can't use a lance on a chariot.

 

[Jimbo07]

Even the most half-assed steam engine is going to require a non-exploding boiler. Not so easy, considering England didn't have any as late as the 16th c.

 

[Loss Leader]

Even the most half-assed steam engine is going to require a non-exploding boiler. Not so easy, considering England didn't have any as late as the 16th c.

You could make a small metal sphere with two opposing valves and fill it with some water. A fire under the spere would make it spin, making it a crude engine for small military applications. The Greeks appear to have actually had this technology but they failed to understand its potential.

 

[Jimbo07]

You could make a small metal sphere with two opposing valves and fill it with some water. A fire under the spere would make it spin, making it a crude engine for small military applications. The Greeks appear to have actually had this technology but they failed to understand its potential.

tee hee... I just Wiki'd steam engines and found that (I just couldn't post it at the time, because the forum slowed down). However, I stand by my statement. Trying to get a lot of good work out of a steam engine without a good boiler is questionable... hence the development of the study of thermodynamics in the first place!

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Even the most half-assed steam engine is going to require a non-exploding boiler. Not so easy, considering England didn't have any as late as the 16th c.

Assuming you didn't need the engine to go anywhere, could you make a boiler from a hollow stone?

 

[Jimbo07]

Assuming you didn't need the engine to go anywhere, could you make a boiler from a hollow stone?

Now, I'm not a steam engineer, but my suspicion is that you couldn't get a tight enough connection between, say, a clay pot and whatever you'd use as a cylinder to build up the proper pressure. Someone may be able to do it now with some kind of high-tech ceramic process, but given the tools of the time...

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Now, I'm not a steam engineer, but my suspicion is that you couldn't get a tight enough connection between, say, a clay pot and whatever you'd use as a cylinder to build up the proper pressure. Someone may be able to do it now with some kind of high-tech ceramic process, but given the tools of the time...

I was actually thinking of making the whole thing from poured concrete, and then putting in brass valves. But, since stone has around 1/5 the heat capacity of water, it would take a long, long time to boil water.