travel back in time, naked

[CapelDodger]

The millstone, where grain is ground between rotating wheels, dates to about 300 BCE; I could improve upon this by several thousand years, and drkitten-and-company would be likely to be a very successful mill.

First you'd have to explain the principle, then you'd have to get someone to take time-out to grind the stones, and all of this on the grounds that it'll reduce the average woman's grinding workload. I can't see that getting off the ground (so to speak).

 

[dacium2007]

5,000 years is a very very long time. To far to go back. Here are some big problems I could think of:

The first problem you have would be finding other people. The population 5,000 years ago, is only about 20 million people.

Its douptful you could even introduce anything at all. For some idea to spread, the founding idea needs to have already been extremely wide spread. For eample different pottery techniques could only spread after the one preceeding it had been known throughout a regoin for generations. Its hard to pass one a complicated idea, easy to pass one just another step.

Its extremely unlikly that even if you learned as much as we know to day, you probably still won't be able to communicate at all. First writing isn't really until 1800 BC. We don't know for sure how they spoke, we can only guess. You would have to learn their language first.

You will probably have to battle with being an outcast where ever you go. This would make you prone to being taken as a slave and victimised or killed for no reason. In my opinion this is the biggest trouble you have.

You could very easily set-up what would become the biggest religion ever.

 

[Beerina]

They'd kill me on sight. Hairless in funny places, you see.

Ever see "The Gods Must Be Crazy"? A western white woman gets stuck out in Africa with some bushmen. Aside from thinking she's a ghost, they're also stunned at how much food she must consume, so huge is she compared to their chronically nutrition-deprived population.

 

[quarky]

Knowing the ways of woosters could very well be the best edge.
And knowing when the next eclipse would come! That could be some hot data.

 

[Loss Leader]

Imagine being able to travel back in time, say, 5000 years, to an area with human encampments. You don't get to bring anything except your knowledge.
What advantage, if any, do you think you might have with relationship to the primitives?

I always thought that if I ended up back about five hundred years, I could sell maps. I know where huge stores of gold were in 1500 as well as silver and iron mines. I know where to find oil (and what it would be good for) and I know exactly what crops will thrive where.

Sure, I'd be speeding up the demise of the native population of the Americas by a few hundred years but those guys' days were numbered anyway.

 

[FenrisWolf]

On some level, this question is more interesting if it's an organized group of people going back in time naked. Positing people who share a language and culture going back together sidesteps the problems you'd have with getting killed by the locals before any of your advanced knowledge matters. What would you need to found a society that would become a dominant force in human history?

If I could pick say 100 people, my list would look something like this, with all people having appropriate degrees and say 5-10 years experience, and split 50/50 male/female:

20 special forces soldiers (Navy SEALs or equivalent)
12 engineers (2 each chemical, mechanical, metallurgical, electrical, architectural, & mining)
10 doctors (2 OBGYN, 8 other specialists, at least 5 of which should be surgeons)
4 botanists (with both field and lab experience)
4 zoologists (with experience in agribusiness)

Everybody would of course need to do a lot of grunt work, both inside and out of their area of expertise. Any big skillsets missing from that list? Clothing, I guess, but if the group wears crude hides instead of well-tailored clothes it's not the end of the world. And teachers, but it's hard to spare room for a dedicated teacher -- maybe some of the engineers could be college profs?

20 military might be too many, but I figure you need hunters at first until agriculture gets going, and defense against other tribes too. And 8 people dedicated to farming (zoo/botanists) might not be enough. Hmm.

It'd be interesting to see what kind of social structure develops. Hopefully you could hold it together through the second generation at least.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

100 naked people going back in time and no Halle Berry on that list? What's wrong with you?

 

[Loss Leader]

Any big skillsets missing from that list?

You forgot lawyers, genius.

Our society is founded upon an understanding of fractional reserve banking, mortgages, diverse forms of property ownership, limited liability, inheritance, written statutes, case law, criminal law, recourse to courts for disputes, human rights and far, far more. All of those things were invented or refined by lawyers.

Otherwise, the first time a Navy Seal kills one of the botonists over that hot girl in engineering, your society will collapse into something akin to those plane crash survivors from Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome waiting for Captain Walker to take them to Tomorrow-morrow Land.

 

[Jimbo07]

You forgot lawyers, genius.

They're in the 50 Fenris didn't account for. Starting criteria... people who can count!

 

[MajikPiG]

I like to think I might do alright. I've trained in several different martial techniques with swords and other weapons.... plus, I know how to make beer and bread. What else do you need?

-Matt

 

[ImaginalDisc]

If I could pick say 100 people, my list would look something like this, with all people having appropriate degrees and say 5-10 years experience, and split 50/50 male/female:

20 special forces soldiers (Navy SEALs or equivalent)
12 engineers (2 each chemical, mechanical, metallurgical, electrical, architectural, & mining)
10 doctors (2 OBGYN, 8 other specialists, at least 5 of which should be surgeons)
4 botanists (with both field and lab experience)
4 zoologists (with experience in agribusiness)

Everybody would of course need to do a lot of grunt work, both inside and out of their area of expertise. Any big skillsets missing from that list? Clothing, I guess, but if the group wears crude hides instead of well-tailored clothes it's not the end of the world. And teachers, but it's hard to spare room for a dedicated teacher -- maybe some of the engineers could be college profs?

20 military might be too many, but I figure you need hunters at first until agriculture gets going, and defense against other tribes too. And 8 people dedicated to farming (zoo/botanists) might not be enough. Hmm.

Ok, aside from from your equating "military" to "hunter" for some reason, you need tailors, spinners, rope makers, basket makers, and weavers very badly. Besides, unless you're targeting big game, trapping animals with snares or raising your own is much more efficient.

Cloth and rope is essential. What are you going to attach things together with but rope? Nails will be in short supply, but fiber is abundant if you know how to cultivate it.

You say that clothing isn't important, but you might change your tune if you land anywhere except Tahiti. What are people going to carry and store things in without bags, sacks, pouches, and baskets? Pots? Ok, then bring a potter. Are people really going to wear raw, untreated hides, or will you bring tanners, too?

Where are people going to take shelter and store food? Looks like you need masons and carpenters, and probably thatchers too, unless you're going to go through the expense of making abode roofs or using tile.

There's a whole host of technologies that go into even the earliest civilization, and it's hard to cover all the bases.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

How about a group of people each of whom memorize one particular book, ala Fahrenheit 451 -- like "How Things Work" and "How to Kill a Hun in Five Easy Steps" and "Water Purification for Dummies" and "Killing Deer with Pointed Sticks" and "How Not to Be Pegged as a Witch in 12th Century France"?

Oh, and Halle Berry.

 

[FenrisWolf]

They're in the 50 Fenris didn't account for. Starting criteria... people who can count!

Ahahahah... yeah, I guess I don't get to go!

ImaginalDisc: I know US special forces people get extended training in wilderness survival, and are generally very physically fit and capable. I think that makes them hunters, moreso than modern hunters who are pretty much hobbyists at this point in history.

And I'm not worried about potters & tanners & ropemakers -- seriously, how valuable is a modern-day guy who makes rope? What does he use to make rope in the modern world that was available 5000 years in the past? Braided vines will have to do at first, and untanned hides, and crude hollowed-out wood bowls which anyone can make.

I think you're too focused on stuff that'll only be useful in the first few years. After the engineers get a steam engine going, how important is the tanner then? Seems to me you'd want people who have big-picture skills to allow you to really accelerate your society after the (very rough) first few years.

 

[quarky]

Winning the tolerance and allegiance of the locals would be paramount. It could be tough to make a better basket or rope than what they already had. Same with arrowheads.

 

[Beanbag]

You need someone who's mechanically adept -- and I'm not talking about an engineer. You need one of those people who never buys anything new, but takes old stuff and tinkers it up to do what he (or she) wants, someone who's good with their hands. Someone who can take a hunk of metal and a ten-inch bastard file and produce a set of gears that mesh perfectly. Someone who's used to making stuff from scratch, one of those people who makes the tools they use to make the fixtures that let them make the gadgets they want.

In short, you need a couple of classically-trained watch and clock makers.

ETA: and a couple of blacksmiths. And at least one experienced heavy timber woodworker.

Beanbag

 

[Soapy Sam]

Reverse the question.
Some neolithic chap arrives, naked, in Oxford Circus.
He is arrested for indecency.
Unable to speak the language, he is charged with being a vagrant of no fixed abode and probably an illegal immigrant.
Fined for contempt of court, (inevitably, as he could give no name, address or take an oath) he will invariably end up in the jug.

I doubt tolerance of the very odd has progressed much in the last 5ooo years.

 

[quarky]

Reverse the question.
Some neolithic chap arrives, naked, in Oxford Circus.
He is arrested for indecency.
Unable to speak the language, he is charged with being a vagrant of no fixed abode and probably an illegal immigrant.
Fined for contempt of court, (inevitably, as he could give no name, address or take an oath) he will invariably end up in the jug.

I doubt tolerance of the very odd has progressed much in the last 5ooo years.

True, that.
This could be one of the reasons why the aliens are (mostly) afraid to make contact.
O.T.O.H.,
if a full fledged neandertal showed up, they would probably get v.i.p. treatment.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Ahahahah... yeah, I guess I don't get to go!

ImaginalDisc: I know US special forces people get extended training in wilderness survival, and are generally very physically fit and capable. I think that makes them hunters, moreso than modern hunters who are pretty much hobbyists at this point in history.

Sure. Trapping with snares is still more efficient.

And I'm not worried about potters & tanners & ropemakers -- seriously, how valuable is a modern-day guy who makes rope? What does he use to make rope in the modern world that was available 5000 years in the past? Braided vines will have to do at first, and untanned hides, and crude hollowed-out wood bowls which anyone can make.

Inestimably valuable. I've spun thread starting from nothing but flax, having boiled it, cleaned it, and spun it with nothing more complex than a drop spindle and a pot of water. You're dramaticically understimating the utility of textiles and dramatically overestimating the materials required.

I think you're too focused on stuff that'll only be useful in the first few years. After the engineers get a steam engine going, how important is the tanner then?

Immensely. What will the belts in the machine you'll build be made from? Rubber? I think not. Throughout the industrial revolution they were made of leather. You also can't ignore the value of good shoes.

Seems to me you'd want people who have big-picture skills to allow you to really accelerate your society after the (very rough) first few years.

You can have head in the clouds, but when people freeze to death for lack of garments, die from infections to injuries of their unshod feet, and starve because of a lack of proper storage of their food, you'll reevaluate the utility of such basic skills as tailoring, weaving, and tanning.

 

[Jimbo07]

True, that.
This could be one of the reasons why the aliens are (mostly) afraid to make contact.

Sorry... which aliens are those?

What JREF really needs is a sci-fi forum... time travel, aliens, you name it!

 

[RenaissanceBiker]

Well, if I was transported to the bronze age I think I could invent the compound bow and make some improvements in transportation. I would also try to become an accomplished map maker. I think the best strategy would be to find and join the biggest and most technically advanced society possible, then help them improve their existing technology. If they can make glass, work with them to create mirrors and lenses. If they can make metal tools, help them make better or more useful ones.

Language would be a problem, but once you can demonstrate your value to a society, they will welcome you. If you can survive one year you should be fine. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is size. I'm 5'11'' and slightly more than 200 pounds. I am in reasonably good shape. Bronze age humans may consider me a giant. If I must go completely naked, I sure would miss my eye glasses. I would have to get lasik surgery before the trip.