travel back in time, naked

[drkitten]

A lot of your plans involves argiculture, which itself has benefited from thousands of years of develoment.

Well, yes. In 3000 BCE, agriculture had been around for nearly three thousand years; althouh the modern versions of the plants had yet to be developed, stuff that was recognizably wheat, barley, peas, and lentils were in cultivation over much of the Mid-east. (Yes, I am assuming that I'm in the Fertile Crescent as opposed to, say, Antarctica.

Not only was agriculture well-established, but so were a number of secondary technologies (such as weeding, plowing [albeit with manual labor instead of animals], irrigation, and even crop rotation [leaving fields fallow to restore fertility]).

In fact, even grinding flour and baking bread was well-established in 3000 BCE. What was not well-established was a large-scale method of doing it (like millstones); people tended to pound their own flour using something akin to a mortar and pestle.

People weren't nearly as primitive as you seem to think in 3000BCE.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Well, yes. In 3000 BCE, agriculture had been around for nearly three thousand years; althouh the modern versions of the plants had yet to be developed, stuff that was recognizably wheat, barley, peas, and lentils were in cultivation over much of the Mid-east. (Yes, I am assuming that I'm in the Fertile Crescent as opposed to, say, Antarctica.

Not only was agriculture well-established, but so were a number of secondary technologies (such as weeding, plowing [albeit with manual labor instead of animals], irrigation, and even crop rotation [leaving fields fallow to restore fertility]).

In fact, even grinding flour and baking bread was well-established in 3000 BCE. What was not well-established was a large-scale method of doing it (like millstones); people tended to pound their own flour using something akin to a mortar and pestle.

People weren't nearly as primitive as you seem to think in 3000BCE.

Well there you go. All the ploughing, brewing and whatnot you wanted to introduce is all ready in place. You can't argue that you would instroduce it and argue that it all ready exists at the same time.

 

[drkitten]

Well there you go. All the ploughing, brewing and whatnot you wanted to introduce is all ready in place. You can't argue that you would instroduce it and argue that it all ready exists at the same time.

Ploughing existed -- but horse (or oxen, or other draft-animals) weren't used to pull plows. Brewing existed, but distilation did not. Flour existed, but millstones and millwheels, which are a lot more efficient at producing it, did not. Porters existed, but wheeled carts did not.

Given enough time and resources to construct my gadgets, I could essentially half the labor requirements necessary to produce bread. I and my water wheel could grind all the flour the village needed instead of having each family spend three or four hours a day at the mortar and pestles. I and my ox-drawn plough could plough in a day a field that would take a single man a week to do. I and my oxen could cart a load to storage that would take twenty men to drag.

 

[El Greco]

There was an interesting similar topic sometime ago: If we would transport 4-5000 years in the past a group of experts in every possible field and all the reference they might need in the form of books, how long would it take them to build a modern PC (or a car, or anything else). We also assume that they have all required manpower available.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Ploughing existed -- but horse (or oxen, or other draft-animals) weren't used to pull plows.

I don't recall seing evidence that the animals had been domesticated to be docile and strong enough to do it. Chariots may have come before saddles because horses were smaller and more difficult to manage, for example.

Brewing existed, but distilation did not.

What are you going to use, glass tubes and rubber stoppers?

Flour existed, but millstones and millwheels, which are a lot more efficient at producing it, did not.

There was milling going on by hand, simply crushing and grinding the grain between two stones by hand. You'd need to cut the millstone and the base stone perfectly flat, balance them properly, and find suitable stone for it. That's a bit of neat masonry work.

Porters existed, but wheeled carts did not.

Where would the wheeled carts be of any use? On the non-existant roads, perhaps?

Given enough time and resources to construct my gadgets, I could essentially half the labor requirements necessary to produce bread.

Why would anyone want to eat bread filled with fine sand? Porridge is more nutritious, and less labor intensive.

. I and my ox-drawn plough could plough in a day a field that would take a single man a week to do.

Assuming you could breed a suitable animal.

I and my oxen could cart a load to storage that would take twenty men to drag.

Again, on what surface?

 

[Madalch]

If I were to be sent to the middle ages, I think I could set myself up as an alchemist fairly readily. I can do distillation (even allowing for the jury-rigging of the apparatus), and I know how to make phosphorus.

Sure, I'd be a much worse chemist than I am now, without access to materials straight from Fluka, but I'd manage.

Five thousand years ago, I'd probably have to figure out the making and blowing of glass before doing any of the above. I have some vague ideas of how to do it, which of course is pretty useless.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Five thousand years ago, I'd probably have to figure out the making and blowing of glass before doing any of the above. I have some vague ideas of how to do it, which of course is pretty useless.

You'd have to make the metal tools for glassblowing, and for that you'd need either a blast furnace, or at least a bloomery. Then, you'd need a furnace to melt the glass in at over 1100 degrees C to get all the air out.

You might be able to get that temperature on wood fuels, but you would more likely have to use coal.

 

[drkitten]

I don't recall seing evidence that the animals had been domesticated to be docile and strong enough to do it.

Oxen were dragging sledges from about 4000BCE. They weren't dragging wheeled carts or ploughs until about 3000BCE, the approximate time we're discussing.

What are you going to use, glass tubes and rubber stoppers?

Ceramics (use wax for airtight seals) will do just fine for this.

There was milling going on by hand, simply crushing and grinding the grain between two stones by hand. You'd need to cut the millstone and the base stone perfectly flat, balance them properly, and find suitable stone for it. That's a bit of neat masonry work.

Yup, but one well-within the capacity of contemporary masons once I show them what needs doing.

Where would the wheeled carts be of any use?

Taking loads home from distant fields over relatively flat land. The fact that by 2500 BCE wheeled carts were in common use despite the lack of road-building technology (that wouldn't really come around until the Roman era) suggests that they were quite useful.

Why would anyone want to eat bread filled with fine sand?

I don't know. Why don't you ask them -- it was one of the staples of their diet!

Porridge is more nutritious, and less labor intensive.

But much less transportable and it doesn't keep very well. I'm also not sure how much less labor-intensive it is; you need a cooking pot, a fire, and a close source of water.

Assuming you could breed a suitable animal.

... or borrow one from my neighbor. His ancestors had bred one a thousand years ago.

Again, on what surface?

You really have no idea what the difference between 3000 BCE and 9000 BCE was in terms of technology, do you?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Oxen were dragging sledges from about 4000BCE. They weren't dragging wheeled carts or ploughs until about 3000BCE, the approximate time we're discussing.



Ceramics (use wax for airtight seals) will do just fine for this.



Yup, but one well-within the capacity of contemporary masons once I show them what needs doing.





Taking loads home from distant fields over relatively flat land. The fact that by 2500 BCE wheeled carts were in common use despite the lack of road-building technology (that wouldn't really come around until the Roman era) suggests that they were quite useful.





I don't know. Why don't you ask them -- it was one of the staples of their diet!



But much less transportable and it doesn't keep very well. I'm also not sure how much less labor-intensive it is; you need a cooking pot, a fire, and a close source of water.




... or borrow one from my neighbor. His ancestors had bred one a thousand years ago.




You really have no idea what the difference between 3000 BCE and 9000 BCE was in terms of technology, do you?

I am quite aware, but you're simulataneously claiming that you would introduce technologies that you then claim are in evidence at the time. How you can handle such cognitive dissonance, I have no idea.

 

[Ashles]

When you say naked... what about body crevices?

Now that would be a real dilemma.


Oh God - I just had a real scary thought. Assuming you could speak their language probably the quickest way to gain power, status and security would be to... set yourself up as a soothsayer or psychic.

Bit of cold reading, bit of hot reading...

Improving hygiene would probably be quite easy - more cooking, more organised storage, improved cleanliness, more washing, purify water - (surely you could do that with a pot, a fire and some clean hide over the top, or a rock surface etc. - not particularly efficient but it would work).
Now you have mysterious healing abilities.

And I agree with TX about being able to draw more accurate and more interesting things than anyone else.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Ceramics (use wax for airtight seals) will do just fine for this [distallation tubes]

Wouldn't glassware be feasible under such circumstances? Inventing the mason jar ahead of schedule might earn you a few followers back then.

 

[drkitten]

I am quite aware, but you're simulataneously claiming that you would introduce technologies that you then claim are in evidence at the time. How you can handle such cognitive dissonance, I have no idea.

There is no cognitive dissonance. There are, however, measurement uncertainties. We haven't specified where exactly I am to go, nor when exactly. The OP specified "about 5000 years ago", which taken literally would have me arriving at 2993 BCE -- but where? And what's the margin of error?

Similarly, we don't know exactly when various technologies were developed.According to the best estimates I've been able to find, the introduction of the ox-drawn plough occurred at "about 3000 BCE," but of course, that could mean any time within a century or so of that time. The arrival of the wheel also happened at "about 3000BCE," while the ox-drawn cart is believed to have occurred at "about 2800BCE." Again, what's the margin of error? If I arrive in 2993BCE, and the ox-drawn plough was actually invented in 2991BCE, I've got two years to develop a prototype and amaze the natives....

There's a good sporting chance I would arrive early enough to be able to "invent" all three devices. The chances are excellent that I would arrive early enough to invent one of them (since I'm expected to have a two-hundred year head start on the ox-drawn cart.)

The time-table looks like this. Oxen, as draft beasts, are available as early as 4000 BCE. By the time I arrive at ca. 3000 BCE, they're (assuming I visit Mesopotamia) well-established and omnipresent, but they're most commonly used for pulling sledges, not wheeled carts. The wheel and axel are, if present at all, only experimental devices used on a local scale, and no one has managed to put the two together.

Similarly, bread (and flour) have been around for a long time, but are made laboriously by hand. Local masons have long been able to cut stone well for a long time -- but few if any have thought to cut a pair of millstones and balance them to grind. Even when that is done, there's still a several hundred year gap before anyone will think of using ox-power, water-power, or wind-power to drive the mill instead of driving it laboriously by hand.

Pottery has been around for a long time, but it's still made either by coils or slabs; the potter's wheel is coming in at about this time; the pulley driven wheel will not be available for centuries because pulleys will not be available for that time.

So it really depends on when I arrive. I will almost certainly arrive before the invention of the ox-drawn cart or the water-driven mill, since I've got a two century head start. If the ox-drawn plough and the wheeled cart has already been invented in the village where/when I arrive, I simply show the locals how to put that together. On the other hand, If they haven't discovered them, I can show them the pieces they need, using the technology they already have (the ox-collar for the sledge, in particular.) They already know how to cut smooth stones, and the idea of cutting a large smooth stone and using it to grind grain may or may not have occurred to them -- but the idea of driving such a large, smooth, stone using water power will probably not occur to them for 200 years.

 

[drkitten]

Wouldn't glassware be feasible under such circumstances? Inventing the mason jar ahead of schedule might earn you a few followers back then.

That's not clear; I don't know if the locals will be able to make mason jars for me or not -- and I don't have the tools with me to do it.

The locals could make glass, but mostly just beads. The art of glassblowing, or working with hollow glass in general, was still a ways in the future, and I'm not confident enough of my abilities as a glass-blower to expect to be able to (re)produce that. However, I am confident of the abilities of the local potters to make fireproof pottery alembics with long spouts. Put a pair of them, mouth to mouth, seal the joint with wax, and I've got my still.

Of course, I might be able to use casting techniques to make something like glass jars, but they wouldn't be precise enough for distillation work. Still be useful to the locals. In particular, I could probably cast semiconvex lenses and sell them as firestarters.....

 

[Ashles]

Okay here's a list of things considered by Wiki to have been invented in the first millenium BC - so I guess we can presume, invent any of these and it would be quite impressive to the locals:

1st millenium BC

Catapult in Near East
South Pointing Chariot in China
Differential gear in China and Greek island of Antikythera
Stupa in India
Blowgun in India[3]
Iron pellet in India[3]
500s BC: Sugar in India
500s BC: Dental bridge in Etruria
500s BC: Kite in China
500s BC: Trebuchet in China
475 BC: Scythed Chariot: Ajatashatru in India
500s BC: Plastic surgery: Sushruta in India
500s BC: Cosmetic surgery: Sushruta in India
400s BC: Football: in China
350 BC: Water wheel in India[4]
350 BC: Watermill in India[4]
300s BC: Compass in China
300s BC: Screw: Archytas
200s BC: Compound pulley: Archimedes
200s BC: Odometer: Archimedes?
150s BC: Clockwork (Antikythera mechanism)
150s BC: Astrolabe: Hipparchus in Asia Minor
100s BC: Big-toe stirrup in India[5]
100s BC: Parchment in Pergamon
1st century BC: Glassblowing in Syria
1st century BC: Trip hammer in China
40 BC: Rolling-element bearing in Roman ship
Chaturaji in India
Chaturanga in India
Xiangqi in China
Baghdad Battery in Mesopotamia (Iraq)
Electric battery in Mesopotamia (Iraq)

Then we could move on to the even more advanced post-Christ millenium:

50: Mouldboard plough in Gaul
100s: Aeolipile : Egypt by Hero of Alexandria
105: Paper: Cai Lun in China[6]
132: Rudimentary Seismometer: Zhang Heng in China
200s: Kongming lantern (Hot air balloon) in China
200s: Horseshoes in Germany
300: Wootz steel in India
300s: Toothpaste in Egypt
400s: Horse collar in China
500-1000: Spinning wheel in India[7]
589: Toilet paper in China
673: Greek fire: Kallinikos of Heliopolis
700: Quill pen
700s: Brass astrolabe: Muhammad al-Fazari[8]
721-815: Alembic: Geber in Iraq[9]
721-815: Still: Geber
721-815: Distilled alcohol: Geber[9]
721-815: Distilled wine: Geber[9]
721-815: Distilled beverage: Geber
725: Clockwork escapement mechanism: Yi Xing of China
800-873: Valve: Banū Mūsā in Iraq[10]
800-873: Float valve: Banū Mūsā[10]
800-873: Feedback controller: Banū Mūsā[10]
800-873: Automatic flute player: Banū Mūsā[11]
800-873: Programmable machine: Banū Mūsā[11]
810-887: Glass from stones: Abbas Ibn Firnas in al-Andalus
810-887: Eye glasses: Abbas Ibn Firnas[12]
810-887: Watch: Abbas Ibn Firnas[12]
810-887: Metronome: Abbas Ibn Firnas
852: Parachute: Abbas Ibn Firnas in al-Andalus
875: Hang glider: Abbas Ibn Firnas
c. 865-900: Kerosene: Al-Razi (Rhazes) in Iraq[12]
c. 865-900: Kerosene lamp: Al-Razi
865-925: Hard soap: Al-Razi[13]
800s: Injection syringe: Ammar ibn Ali al-Mawsili in Iraq[12]
800s: Quadrant in Iraq[14]
800s: Windmill in Persia[15]
800s: Gunpowder in China
900s: Banknote in China
953: Fountain pen in Egypt[16]
994: Sextant: Abu-Mahmud al-Khujandi in Persia[17]
Coffee: Khalid in Ethiopia
Fore-and-aft rig in India[18]
Lateen in India[18]
Shogi in Japan
Porcelain in China
Woodblock printing in China
Prayer wheel: Tibet[19]
Shatranj in Persia
Paned window in the Arab Empire[20]
Street lamp in the Arab Empire[20]
Retort in the Arab Empire
Sherbet in the Arab Empire
Soft drink in the Arab Empire
Mercury escapement mechanism in the Middle East

What do we reckon about those?

 

[Beanbag]

At that time period, much of the effort expended was in producing food. A modern horse-drawn plow using McCormick's layover design that sliced through the soil, rather than shoving it aside, would improve agriculture greatly. And it can be made from bronze alloy -- not as durable as steel, but better than wood.

Forget electric motors and such -- the infrastructure isn't there to support them as anything other than a novelty. You want power? Try for a steam engine, or maybe a water-driven turbine.

Actually, I think I would do better as an engineering consultant, bringing a better level of expertise to civil engineering projects, and maybe consulting with the mining interests as to better ways of removing water from their mines. After all, that was the major use and driving force behind the development of steam engine technology.


Furnace technology was pretty crude back then. I can come up with a better bellows-driven forced draft smelting furnace using all period materials, driven by water power. It's all large-timber construction engineering.

Of course, the absolute best way (as advocated by Hiram Maxim) is to develop a better way of killing people. Go straight to small-bore artillery, completely bypassing the bombard design, where you fire a small projectile at a high velocity, rather than tossing a large projectile.

And there's always booze.

Man, I could be the king of sin back then.

Beanbag

 

[Beanbag]

Of course, this is all predicated on your surviving the "hey, look at the stupid stranger" period where you try to adapt to your surroundings, not offend the local authorities, and do generally stupid things that the locals have learned from long tradition and experience NOT to do, like don't eat that particular plant.

I'm sure I would provide considerable amusement for the locals before I either caught on, or did something that was fatal.

Beanbag

 

[Nancarrow]

I'm the archetype of the 21st century Western white-collar bloke, ie totally bloody useless. I don't think I'd last long in one of these time-travel scenarios.

I know a fair bit of maths, and tutor maths to kids privately. So IF I could travel back to classical Greece I might be able to persuade the academies to give me food and lodging in exchange for picking my brains about calculus, complex numbers and so on (and negative numbers for that matter!).

The trouble with THAT is I know almost no classical greek (studied a bit in school, 17 years ago) and am terrible at languages. So I might just have to club Eudoxus to death and eat him instead.

 

[quarky]

Interesting responses. I could build an arch of stone without cement, but its unlikely that they would be impressed. I think I could start a fire, but so could they.
Weapons advancements, sadly, would really make one popular.
Funny how different it would be if one could bring a small back pack with select items.
Of course, then we'd likely be killed for the amusing trinkets.

Humorous noises and a few slight of hand tricks could be the best survival advantage, initially. Domesticating a wild animal might impress the natives, but it wouldn't be a cake walk. Collectively, perhaps humans have gotten alot dumber than our ancestors.

 

[fuelair]

My first fear would be of getting sick and dying from simple things like drinking the water those people had to drink or eating what they did. In today's sanitary-conscious society I doubt I would have the constitution to survive simple things like that.
Plus no electric blankets or air conditioning or shampoo or even feminine hygeine products...my poor mind boggles!

rock/sand filter can put you ahead on that. Certainly better than nothing.

 

[fuelair]

Interesting responses. I could build an arch of stone without cement, but its unlikely that they would be impressed. I think I could start a fire, but so could they.
Weapons advancements, sadly, would really make one popular.
Funny how different it would be if one could bring a small back pack with select items.
Of course, then we'd likely be killed for the amusing trinkets.

Humorous noises and a few slight of hand tricks could be the best survival advantage, initially. Domesticating a wild animal might impress the natives, but it wouldn't be a cake walk. Collectively, perhaps humans have gotten alot dumber than our ancestors.

Not as likely(the killing) if hand grenades were among the trinkets/