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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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A test along these lines would be good for establishing error bands (i.e. statistical confidence intervals) for whatever methodology he is employing. The confidence intervals for any new measurement method can only be established when the measure is known. Apply reverse kinematics to a guy in a costume, and see how close you get to the actual measurements.

For purposes of a control, I don't think a human in a costume would serve well. For controls to work, the researcher has to be blind to the condition. Given a known human actor, I'd bet he'd come up with a human skeleton.

But if you just show him a guy in a Bigfoot costume he won't know it's an actor any more than he did when he analyzed Patty, right?

The only control I can think of is third party replication.

We got that with B:BE. Meldrum said the dude replicated the Patty walk. Did Meldrum debunk Steindorf with that statement? If he walks like Patty, then his skeleton must work all funky like Patty's.

Meldrum said that a guy in a suit walks like Patty. But would he be willing to switch it around and say: Therefore, Patty walks like a guy in a suit?
 
...and you ain't never been chased by a Bigfoot. So shut up!

Over on the vastly entertaining invisible bigfoot thread, I'm trying to remedy that. Historian alleges that if I show disrespect for bigfoot I will be attacked, chased, harmed, or at least mightily inconvenienced. I have asked him for advice on what to say to insure such a result. I await the answer with bated breath.
 
Bigfoot will know if you are genuinely dissing him, or if you are just trying to prove Neal to be wrong. I get the feeling that they like him. Heck, they might even off you for messing with him!
 
My guess is that Jeff Meldrum is coming out with a journal of his own, and that this is what Vella is alluding to. Back in 2005, Meldrum asked me to submit the dermals business for his forthcoming journal.

:jaw-dropp

Wait, isn't this the scientific equivalent of publishing something through a vanity press service and then trumpeting about how you're a published author?

I may still submit the desiccation ridge business to a geology or ichnology journal as Dr. Wroblewski suggested I do...

Please do. Come to think of it, I wonder what type of journal would accept an article about the fallacy of using "evidence" like the Freeman and Bossburg tracks?
 
Over on the vastly entertaining invisible bigfoot thread, I'm trying to remedy that. Historian alleges that if I show disrespect for bigfoot I will be attacked, chased, harmed, or at least mightily inconvenienced. I have asked him for advice on what to say to insure such a result. I await the answer with bated breath.

Bruto, That is what is called LIBEL. Big difference between "will" and "may be". Of course, it was not convenient for you to state the facts. Nor did I state that you "will be attacked". Keep up the lieing. I could use some choice names right now, but why waste them on you.
 
But if you just show him a guy in a Bigfoot costume he won't know it's an actor any more than he did when he analyzed Patty, right?



We got that with B:BE. Meldrum said the dude replicated the Patty walk. Did Meldrum debunk Steindorf with that statement? If he walks like Patty, then his skeleton must work all funky like Patty's.

Meldrum said that a guy in a suit walks like Patty. But would he be willing to switch it around and say: Therefore, Patty walks like a guy in a suit?

I'm sorry, I meant third party replication of the animation, or an independent peer-review of what Steindorf has already done.

I'm confident the gait can be replicated/imitated, at least holistically in its quality. So, you're saying if the gait can be replicated, the skeletal structure must be identical (or at least highly similar) between the two subjects and Steindorf's recreation is fiction?

I'll have to watch the program. All of the qualitative judgements of the film subject--whether by skeptic or advocate--I just don't have much faith in. You may be correct, but I'd like to see that with measurements as opposed to personal judgement.

Replication of the film and its subject is just too easy for advocates to dismiss based on some trivial detail or quality. So, unless we can derive a reliable quantitative measure from the film, I don't understand why this avenue would be pursued by either side.
 
I'm confident the gait can be replicated/imitated, at least holistically in its quality. So, you're saying if the gait can be replicated, the skeletal structure must be identical (or at least highly similar) between the two subjects and Steindorf's recreation is fiction?

I'm not sure what I think. Steindorf sees an unusual gait and develops an unusual skeleton and limb action to explain this gait. Then a guy walks the same way in a costume.

Does Patty have the same skeleton as this guy?
Are gaits unrelated to skeleton structure?
Was Patty just a guy in a costume?
Was Meldrum just wrong to say the guy walked like Patty?

Replication of the film and its subject is just too easy for advocates to dismiss based on some trivial detail or quality. So, unless we can derive a reliable quantitative measure from the film, I don't understand why this avenue would be pursued by either side.

Pattycakes say that nobody has replicated Patty's appearance or her walk. Skeptics might counter that nobody has replicated the many dozen of new YouTube Bigfoot clips. These have mostly been declared hoaxes, but we see no attempts at replication. If hoaxes are replicable and Patty is not (because she is real), why don't these guys just demonstrate that by replicating any YouTube Bigfoot? Is it because the skeptics would dismiss the replication on trivial detail or quality? After all, if you can't replicate it, it must be because it's real. If the believers say it's a waste of time and resources to replicate a hoax - would that excuse also apply to explain why nobody is trying very hard to replicate Patty?
 
Well, here´s what a proponent would say:
1. Casts- An expert said they were dermal ridges. Are you saying you can not trust an expert's statement?

Ah, but they forget that the casts weren't treated with a casting agent in order to prevent the creation of misleading dessication ridges. Being involved in law enforcement, where doing so is standard procedure, Mr. Chilcutt apparently assumed that the people who had made the Bigfoot track castings took the same precaution. He was wrong.

The artifacts were not reproduced in soils from [add place name here].

Which completely ignores the problems with melissa's experiments (That's what you're referring to, right?) and the question: why do casting artifacts look exactly like the contested dermals?

There's also the classic "That only effects one trackway" argument, which fails to note issues like alternate ways to create the impression of dermal ridges, such as the Bloomington track.

There are footprints with mid-tarsal break marks;

Such markings can be created (either intentionally or unintentionally) with fake feet. And as someone in this thread showed, human footprints can also show a "mid-tarsal break."

theres a miles-long trackway in the middle of nothing;

Which ignores the possibility that the person who "discovered" it could've made the trackway. There's also the issue of Cryptozoology proponents exaggerating the nature of trackways.
As I recall, a proponent called Huntser claimed that the Bossburg Bigfoot tracks were found to have enter and exited a river onto private land, which would imply that a hoax would have to swim across a river (during the winter) and onto private property without being caught. However, reading about the case reveals that they only found what they thought were tracks on the private land, mainly because of markings that resembled the toe marks seen on the cripplefoot tracks. These "tracks" were found after a rainstorm...mud-based parodelia anyone?

In his book "Real-life X Files: Investigating the Paranormal," Joe Nickell makes a similar observation regarding the exaggerated nature of the so-called URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil's_Footprints"]"Devil's footprints."[/URL] That portion of the book seems to be a reprinting of this article.

there are casts showing toe movement.

I forget, was this one of the things that tube showed was possible to fake using a fake foot? There's also the issue of flexible rubber feet...

No to mention the Skookum cast (Swindler said its from Gigantopithecus),

The argument I've heard is that despite all the evidence for it being an elk lay is wrong since a hair was found that's "consistent with suspected Sasquatch hair" inside the imprint. However, this ignores that synthetic hair has been realistic enough to fool professionals into thinking that it's real hair.

Also, how could Swindler know what an imprint of a Gigantopithecus looks like if the fossil remains of them only consist of teeth and mandibles?

the anatomically-correct female buttcast and Freeman's handcasts.

How do we know that a proported Bigfoot cast is anatomically correct if we have no Bigfoot to compare it to? Also, why can't a hoaxer simple use human anatomy as a base and then enlarge it?

2. Vocalizations- No one proved the Sierra Sounds were fake and sound analysis "proved" they could not be made by humans

And why would they have to be made by humans when there are several animal cries (elk, fox, moose, etc.) and artificially-created ("scary sound effects" tapes/CDs and the old "rub a warm silver dollar on dry ice" trick) sounds that could be mistaken for being the sounds of Bigfoot?

I've heard people claim that similar sounds can be linked to sightings from different parts of the country/world. However, they failed to note what type of "sightings" made up those reports (I suspect they're of the "I heard something scary in the woods" variety).

And considering all the times proponents have claimed that humans couldn't do something associated with Bigfoot, only to get proven wrong, I fail to see why I should believe their claim this time around.

3. DNA- There are "unidentified samples" others samples could have been contaminated by human DNA.

Or are known animal or human DNA samples that've degraded to a point where they can only be called "inconclusive." There are other issues with DNA samples as well.

Some have tried arguing that some "inconclusive" DNA results can't be a case of degraded DNA since they apparently were taken from the same "proported Sasquatch hair" that looked similar to human hair. However, Huntsman seems to have figured out that mystery.

4. Hair- There are samples, they just look too much like human hair. Human hair that ws never cut!

Most suspected Bigfoot hair is later identified as being known animal hair, plant matter, and/or synthetic hair. I find it amusing that "never cut" and "lacks a medulla" descriptions given to the supposed Bigfoot hair match up to what's expected in syntehtic hair/fur. There are also many problems with hair analysis.

This seems to show that known animal hair can be incorrectly be identified as being from an unknwon animal. However, the the source is an unpublished article...

I love how many proponents don't seem to realize that the reason for synthetic fiber being found in the wilderness is due to hoaxers in costumes. Granted, there are other reasons, such as wigs and artificial fur on coats, but still...

5. Other Videos- The MDF and Freeman footage have never been proved to be hoaxes.

The MDF is most likely a hoax. Even the "mysterious change in height" has been logically explained.

Some argue that Freeman couldn't have afforded "Hollywood quality" suits for such a film, failing to consider that Freeman could've pooled some money together with his sons to buy/make Bigfoot costumes (or that his sons paid for both suits). He's been associated with fake tracks and he's admitted to making fake tracks, so why should any evidence be accepted from him? Some claim that Freeman was merely confessing to making fake tracks to see if they could look realistic, similar to arguments used by hoaxers like Billy Meier in the UFO field after they get busted.

Come to think of it, did Freeman take that footage before or after his paid appearance in an ice cream ad?

And then there's always the Redwoods video (aka the "Playboy video"), but they'll probably ignore the problems with that(see the "Re: Redwoods video" section near the bottom of the article).

6. Photos- Many were never proved not to be from a 'bigfoot'

Heh. That's similar to the logic that Dr. Krantz used regarding this picture.

7. Sighting Reports- Are you claiming all those people are liars? Are you saying that everyone who reported a bigfoot sighting can not be trusted?

Because misidentifications and hallucinations never happen. Riiiiight...
 
Some argue that Freeman couldn't have afforded "Hollywood quality" suits for such a film, failing to consider that Freeman could've pooled some money together with his sons to buy/make Bigfoot costumes (or that his sons paid for both suits). He's been associated with fake tracks and he's admitted to making fake tracks, so why should any evidence be accepted from him? Some claim that Freeman was merely confessing to making fake tracks to see if they could look realistic, similar to arguments used by hoaxers like Billy Meier in the UFO field after they get busted.

I think LAL would argue that not everything Freeman produced has been proven fake, therefore we should accept it as good evidence.
 
Bruto, That is what is called LIBEL. Big difference between "will" and "may be". Of course, it was not convenient for you to state the facts. Nor did I state that you "will be attacked". Keep up the lieing. I could use some choice names right now, but why waste them on you.

Pretty broad definition of libel there, but on rereading I acknowledge that I overstated your level of certainty. You did say "may" for the most part, along with asking what part of my livelihood I would be willing to sacrifice, and stating "all bets are off." So, just to make sure we're accurate, can you give a general idea of what the likelihood of a bigfoot attack might be, if I were to make a particular point of inviting one? I am still interested in testing the idea, especially since a number of reports seem to have come out in recent years suggesting that the bigfoot population of the lower Champlain region may be on the increase. I think that would be a bad thing, and wish to announce publicly in print, as well as uttering it out my back door to all who might be listening, that big stinky sasquatches are not welcome here. Don't want 'em. Tell 'em to move on. I wish to register my lack of respect fo the brutes, by challenging not only their right to come barging in to my neighborhood, but their very existence. Do you have any advice for how I might accomplish that feat, and what warning signs I should look out for?

By the way, if you do meet any of your sasquatch buddies and they mention the possibility of moving over here, tell them not to get too close to the water, or Champ will chomp their ugly chimp heads off. :D
 
Pretty broad definition of libel there, but on rereading I acknowledge that I overstated your level of certainty. You did say "may" for the most part, along with asking what part of my livelihood I would be willing to sacrifice, and stating "all bets are off." So, just to make sure we're accurate, can you give a general idea of what the likelihood of a bigfoot attack might be, if I were to make a particular point of inviting one? I am still interested in testing the idea, especially since a number of reports seem to have come out in recent years suggesting that the bigfoot population of the lower Champlain region may be on the increase. I think that would be a bad thing, and wish to announce publicly in print, as well as uttering it out my back door to all who might be listening, that big stinky sasquatches are not welcome here. Don't want 'em. Tell 'em to move on. I wish to register my lack of respect fo the brutes, by challenging not only their right to come barging in to my neighborhood, but their very existence. Do you have any advice for how I might accomplish that feat, and what warning signs I should look out for?

By the way, if you do meet any of your sasquatch buddies and they mention the possibility of moving over here, tell them not to get too close to the water, or Champ will chomp their ugly chimp heads off. :D

Bigfoot could care less whether you want them out of their neighborhood or not. You are the one that is trespassing. They allow you to remain there and live in peace out of the goodness of their heart. Sounds like you are about to do something really stupid. You are on your own.
 
Bigfoot could care less whether you want them out of their neighborhood or not. You are the one that is trespassing. They allow you to remain there and live in peace out of the goodness of their heart. Sounds like you are about to do something really stupid. You are on your own.

Well,, you're no help. I guess I'll have to take my chances without your expert guidance. I will try very hard to add some unpleasant dreams about bigfoot to my repertoire, but cannot guarantee that I'm good enough at lucid dreaming to carry that off. And I hope you'll excuse me if I don't follow your advice to Locknar about spending the night in a sleeping bag, if only because it's raining here.
 
We must understand that the PGF is the last-stand for Bigfoot proponents. If they lose this argument (whether PGF is the real-deal), then they have nothing.

1. Casts- Even the 'best' ones have been shown to contain casting artifacts
2. Vocalizations- No one has a Bigfoot to compare them to
3. DNA- No Evidence
4. Hair- No Evidence
5. Other Videos- Nothing which would be considered a 'bigfoot'
6. Photos- Nothing which would be considered a 'bigfoot'
7. Sighting Reports- No physical verifiable evidence to support these

If I am wrong about this please elaborate, but I think the PGF is where any proponent will have to stand his ground.

To tell you the truth, I was not aware that any Bigfoot proponents are under any impression that there is a last stand going on, or that there is anything to argue about. You have unrealistic expectations as to the validity of any of your highly uninformed arguements. I don't exactly see hundreds of Bigfoot diehards rushing to this website, in order to desperately defend the PGF film. There is no reason to defend it because it stands up by itself. It is self-proving by virtue of the flexing leg muscles, the butt crack and appropriate weave of the hair. Suits don't have butt cracks.

In regard to Drewbot's amaturish summary:
1. Complete B.S.
2. Don't need a Bigfoot to compare it too. Just try sending the vocalizations out and see what happens. I did and I have now called in over 300 Bigfoot, and many to within 10 feet. Can't learn anything if don't get in Bigfoot's face.
3. Complete B.S.
4 Complete B.S.
5. Both the Freeman footage and the Redwood footage show real Bigfoot as well.
6. Complete B.S.
7. Complete B.S.

Drewbot, you not only are completely wrong about everything, you do not have a clue. Not a single clue. Hey, here's an idea. Why don't you become a skeptic when you grow up. You already have the most important prerequisite of all. A CLOSED MIND!
 
Drewbot, you not only are completely wrong about everything, you do not have a clue. Not a single clue. Hey, here's an idea. Why don't you become a skeptic when you grow up. You already have the most important prerequisite of all. A CLOSED MIND!

THIS IS LIBEL!! I DEMAND RETRIBUTION!
 
Just a statement for the record (please refer to it whenever you decide to discuss the entry characteristics of a mind):

Open Mind <> Empty Wasteland
Open Mind <> Accepts any idea as valid regardless of evidence
Open Mind <> Agrees with me wihtout requiring anything more than my word
Open MInd <> A logical conclusion made after examination of available evidence

Thank you. This has been a public service announcement.
 
Well,, you're no help. I guess I'll have to take my chances without your expert guidance. I will try very hard to add some unpleasant dreams about bigfoot to my repertoire, but cannot guarantee that I'm good enough at lucid dreaming to carry that off. And I hope you'll excuse me if I don't follow your advice to Locknar about spending the night in a sleeping bag, if only because it's raining here.

It is suppose to be nice here tonight, so we'll do the outside bit tonight...hurl Bigfoot insults, "yo mamma" jokes, etc. Though, if the mesh screen in my sliding glass door was to much for it, I'm guessing my sleeping bag would be as well.

Heck, I'll even invite them to be the main course for the cookout, and try extra hard to dream about doing hurtful things to Bigfoot as well.

Since they are suppose to be intelligent, maybe post a sign or two "Bigfoot go home!", "Dinner tonight, roasted Bigfoot"....maybe sing come campfire songs such as "Bigfoot over an open fire" (sung to the tune of "Chestnuts roasted over an open fire").
 
It is suppose to be nice here tonight, so we'll do the outside bit tonight...hurl Bigfoot insults, "yo mamma" jokes, etc. Though, if the mesh screen in my sliding glass door was to much for it, I'm guessing my sleeping bag would be as well.

Heck, I'll even invite them to be the main course for the cookout, and try extra hard to dream about doing hurtful things to Bigfoot as well.

Since they are suppose to be intelligent, maybe post a sign or two "Bigfoot go home!", "Dinner tonight, roasted Bigfoot"....maybe sing come campfire songs such as "Bigfoot over an open fire" (sung to the tune of "Chestnuts roasted over an open fire").

Good luck. It was nice knowing you. I hope you leave a sealed letter or something, so that yours will not be the apparently undocumented fate of so many others, snatched by squatches and never heard from again.

Hey, it just occured to me to wonder if there are rogue sasquatches who have taken to the high seas. It would explain a lot of things out there too. I expect to see it any day in the Weekly World News: Mary Celeste mystery solved: New photographic evidence of Paranormal Bigfoot Abductions. AAAR, matey, they be mighty big boots ye'v got on there!
 
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