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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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What's the opition? Sit down in front of the computer typing "bigfoot is a real invisible interdimensional being, bigfoot is a real invisible interdimensional being, bigfoot is a real invisible interdimensional being", over and over again trying to convince bigfoot believers and skepitcs?
 
OK, the claim is that the hip rotation to swing the foot around can be seen before the famous frame. It's a relatively new claim, I believe, and wasn't around before Steindorf's animation work for Legend Meets Science.

Non-stabilized at normal speed: I can't see it.

Stabilized at normal speed: I see a duck-like placement of the right foot right before entering the debris field. The left doesn't look like it's doing anything unusual.

Zoomed and slowed down (available on S:LMS): The left still looks normal to me at both steps. The right looks normal for the first step, and then looks like it takes this inward fish step and then splits right for the duck step. There is a blur in the images on the LMS DVD that could explain what I'm seeing.

There... clear as pea-soup. LOL

Does Patty ever appear to walk in a way that human cannot? She duck-steps with the right foot for some strides, but not all? And the left foot is never seen to duck-step? Does it seem that for most of the footage, she is not duck-walking with either foot?

Why would Steindorf invent a skeleton and animate it to appear that Patty is a duck-stepping contraption by design? If this bizarre gait is so significant, why does Patty generally appear to walk like a human?

How much did they pay Steindorf for this? If his conclusion was that Patty walks like a guy in a costume and he went on to animate that - would they have still paid him? I can only imagine that some other analyst would look at the footage and not need to make an animated funky monkey gait/skeleton in order to graphically illustrate what might be going on there.
 
All it would take is some bigfoot "expert" sitting besides Steindorf... You know, "guiding" him by pointing "details" regarding Patty's locomotion.

Inducing bias can be pretty easy.
 
Does Patty ever appear to walk in a way that human cannot?

I think any claims that the gait can't be replicated are exaggerated. It may be tedious to maintain for an extended duration, but not impossible.

Tube, I seem to recall you having a picture somewhere of you replicating the gait paired with a quote from Krantz saying it couldn't be duplicated. Could you post that?

She duck-steps with the right foot for some strides, but not all? And the left foot is never seen to duck-step?

At least to my eye, correct on both counts. As has been common with the PGF, someone else may see something very different. The PGF is the Rorschach inkblot of cryptozoology.

Does it seem that for most of the footage, she is not duck-walking with either foot?

There is only a portion of the film where a couple of full strides can be seen without any obstruction of the lower legs and feet. So, anyone would be hard-pressed to describe the gait outside of those particular frames.

Why would Steindorf invent a skeleton and animate it to appear that Patty is a duck-stepping contraption by design?

Maybe his equpiment/eyes are better than mine or he's got a better copy of these frames. I could easily be incorrect (wouldn't be the first time). However, I can also see the pitfall of accepting this finding on faith.

Are you suggesting that he invented the rotation--whether intentionally or not?

If this bizarre gait is so significant, why does Patty generally appear to walk like a human?

I think the significance of the gait has been overblown. It's possible for a human to do, albeit somewhat taxing.

How much did they pay Steindorf for this?

I don't know. Doug Hajicek was the producer, so he would know.

If his conclusion was that Patty walks like a guy in a costume and he went on to animate that - would they have still paid him?

Another question for Doug Hajicek. I suspect he would answer in the affirmative (although he also might be irritated at the question).

I'm sure Hajicek's e-mail could be tracked down. I don't know him, so I don't know if he would respond or not.

I can only imagine that some other analyst would look at the footage and not need to make an animated funky monkey gait/skeleton in order to graphically illustrate what might be going on there.

At the Willow Creek symposium, Hajicek mentioned that he had talked to at least one other company to do this work. He went with VisionRealm (Steindorf's company) due to price considerations. However, there are other companies that could analyze the film in a similar fashion. It would be interesting to see what they came up with given the same inputs. Unfortunately, it's not practical to independently replicate the animation (i.e. time, money, labor).

I hope that helps.
 
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Actually, the gait is quite easy for a human to do and not very taxing at all. In or out of a suit. This was demonstrated on a TV show very recently, Best Evidence:Bigfoot, and even Meldrum agreed that the gait had been replicated fairly easily.

Should that also mean that if Steindorf did an animated skeleton of the BE:B suit-wearer... it would look like the one he did for S:LMS of Patty (with all of its bizarre leg action)?
 
Once again I see -bigfoot proponents, I'm sorry but I'm out of euphenisms today- sloppy science.

Lets consider for a while the proposed walk.
hip rotation, high leg lift, ankle
rotation, non-locking knees, long strides and the legs swing in and out in a criss-cross fashion.
As previously pointed by WP, its by no means efficient. Consider the waste of energy, consider the extra wear to articulations, consider the effort needed to maintain and coordinate such movments... Aint' the evolutionary proccess supposed to select the most efficient traits? What happens to animals that have a slight anatomic disadvantage?

Now, how can a biologist miss this issue? How can a specialist in locomotion miss this issue?

I think that once one considers the above, the question if Patty walked as described or not pales. The most important issue- the poor quality of what's been presented as scientific bigfoot research appears and outshines Patty's walk.

Patty's walk is irrelevant by now. The relevant point is that such flawed, biased research can not, should not be taken seriously.
 
Should that also mean that if Steindorf did an animated skeleton of the BE:B suit-wearer... it would look like the one he did for S:LMS of Patty (with all of its bizarre leg action)?

Hah! An interesting experiment to show Steindorf a clip of the actor in a suit and see what he comes up with for a skeleton.
 
I think Steindorf was paid $75,000 to do the Patty skeleton animation. Who would pay him again to do a guy in a suit? :D

If this were supposed to be real science, he would have automatically also done a guy in a Bigfoot suit to represent a control.
 
Tube, I seem to recall you having a picture somewhere of you replicating the gait paired with a quote from Krantz saying it couldn't be duplicated. Could you post that?

The claim that the "Lower Level Leg Lift" is "inhuman" or at least a "one-in-a-million" feature is patently false.

First of all, the only time Patty does the "lower level leg lift" is very early on in the film. Here at frame 72 we see it:


rearview1.jpg


Weird indeed, unless you understand what a compliant gait looks like:

IMG_1866.jpg
 
Something BIG in Footery is coming in December.. I can't wait.. Sorry to tease, but that's all the info I have right now..

Paul Vella may have spilled the beans on Darren Naish's site.

Vella said:
...a new peer-reviewed paper on the apparent authenticity of sasquatch tracks is about to appear in the literature.

Vella gave a talk on the PGF.

Vella said:
...one of the greatest unsolved mysteries of the footage: exactly how Patterson and Gimlin were able to develop a fim - taken on a Friday - by Sunday the 22nd. This is a big problem, though it seems that it happened. In fact, Patterson, John Green, René Dahinden and Jim McClarin watched the film repeatedly on the Sunday, scratching it badly in the projector they were using and damaging it beyond repair.

Is it a problem to think that Patterson didn't tell the truth about when he filmed Patty? It's still a Bigfoot after all, right?

Naish said:
I don't think it's been done that widely, but we could certainly use mystery animals to better introduce people (again, kids in particular) to the way science works.

Ahem! :eek:

Introduce them to how Krantz, Meldrum, Glickman, Steindorf, etc. use bad science to support the existence of Bigfoot? I don't think that's what he means. :rolleyes:
 
Here is an idea. Instead of you guys wasting your time, time that you can never get back, in trying to rationalize that the PG film is not authentic, why don't you just sit down in your favorite chair and chant "bigfoot is not real, bigfoot is not real, bigfoot is not real", over and over again until you pass out from exhaustion. It will be infinitely more productive.

Hist,

If bigfoot can travel to higher dimensions, why would it allow itself to be filmed???? And why woould it walk away???? Why not just phase out?????
 
Actually, the gait is quite easy for a human to do and not very taxing at all. In or out of a suit. This was demonstrated on a TV show very recently, Best Evidence:Bigfoot, and even Meldrum agreed that the gait had been replicated fairly easily.

The episode will be on again Nov. 8th.

Thanks, I will watch it.
 
I think Steindorf was paid $75,000 to do the Patty skeleton animation. Who would pay him again to do a guy in a suit? :D

If this were supposed to be real science, he would have automatically also done a guy in a Bigfoot suit to represent a control.

A test along these lines would be good for establishing error bands (i.e. statistical confidence intervals) for whatever methodology he is employing. The confidence intervals for any new measurement method can only be established when the measure is known. Apply reverse kinematics to a guy in a costume, and see how close you get to the actual measurements.

For purposes of a control, I don't think a human in a costume would serve well. For controls to work, the researcher has to be blind to the condition. Given a known human actor, I'd bet he'd come up with a human skeleton.

The only control I can think of is third party replication.
 
Friday night they send the film off, Sunday morning it's developed and cut already...only the last 24 feet of the film is shown. Gimlin did not even bother to show up to see the film.

Can anyone believe that Gimlin didn't want to see the film?
 
"Originally Posted by Vella
...a new peer-reviewed paper on the apparent authenticity of sasquatch tracks is about to appear in the literature."

I've got several old issues of Cryptozoology floating around, because my girlfriend used to edit the thing. As far as I know, it's about the closest to a genuine scientific journal as they come. It's been defunct for several years now.

My guess is that Jeff Meldrum is coming out with a journal of his own, and that this is what Vella is alluding to. Back in 2005, Meldrum asked me to submit the dermals business for his forthcoming journal. As you may know this never happened, as I decided to simply put up a website instead. Once I figured out what kind of tracks a Wallace-style fake foot makes, I could no longer buy into the Meldrum-Green-Noll-Chilcutt school of thinking that says that the Onion Mountain-Blue Creek Mountain tracks were made by Bigfoot. I doubt Meldrum would ever allow the inclusion of the fact that Chilcutt misidentified the key piece of evidence (CA-19) in his journal anyway.

I may still submit the desiccation ridge business to a geology or ichnology journal as Dr. Wroblewski suggested I do...

I suspect, but do not know, that what ever "peer reviewed" journal comes out in favor of the authenticity of purported Sasquatch tracks will turn out to have the "peers" be the Bigfooters themselves, much like how the Cryptozoology journal was run.
 
Tube-
Your arms look too long in that picture of the gait in #8031, are you indeed human?
They don't look much different than Patty's. Isn't there an IM index or something. What is your's in the photo and what is Patty's?
 
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