The 9/11 Conspiracy Facts

If you did it illegally and while it was occupied you sure as hell attacked it! Can you show us the demolition permit for WTC 7 dated prior to 9/11?


Are you going Ace Baker on us and claiming it was instead vaporized? Because it sure wasn't 22 storys tall at the end of the day on 9/11... :rolleyes:
I could illustrate you and your charmingly empty headed colleagues evident difficulties understanding the meaning of the word "fall", but suffice to say, 22 stories in NY is not a skyscraper.
 
In point of fact the warnings were NOT unprecedented. There were many, many, MANY warnings prior to 9/11 that were similar and of which nothing came. Hence the reason for investigations into the credibility of the source and into the intelligence itself.

As an example; prior to the embassy bombings in Kenya, Tanzania, and Libya, there were numerous warnings from the IC about possible attacks against US interests abroad, but as with 9/11, they were vague and unspecified enough to make it nearly impossible to determine possible locations or targets. Looking back in hindsight we run into the same problem we have with 9/11; we see the warnings and say, "see, we should have beefed up security at embassies! It's clear now that they were talking about the embassies!" All the while forgetting that when the warnings were initially delivered we had no clue where possible targets might be.

Intelligence is and always will be a vague practice. In essence, an intel analyst is playing a giant guessing game. They're giving their best guess as to what will happen based on a series of factors and knowledge of the group or groups in question. It is not a perfect practice by a long shot; mistakes, sometimes costly ones, are made more often than most people care to admit, but at least it's better than doing nothing. It is notable that, whenever catastrophes like 9/11 occur, blame is immediately placed on the intelligence as if the intel agents should be omniscient and be able to explain exactly what will happen ahead of time, and that just isn't the case. President Bush and the rest of the government were working with vague intelligence that came at a volume only slightly higher than normal, and in response they requested more information in order to be able to make a more definitive action possible (i.e. the 70+ investigations undertaken by the FBI and other agencies). Given that the warnings we received (you know, the forty warnings that mjd says are so specific) contained NO actionable intelligence, rather than going off half-cocked, the government decided it would be better to search out more information. It's a decision faced EVERY TIME warnings come in, and not just by the government, but by the intelligence agencies and the military as well. Collectively they have to decide if it's worth it to take action right away or if it's better to wait for more information. Sometimes they're wrong, but more often they are right. It's just a shame that some of the times they're wrong is when tragedies like 9/11 occur, but they are only human; they are not gods.

And by the way, mjd, I dislike you acting as though those were the ONLY reports received the entire time; there are, at any given time, thousands of reports on various intelligence investigations circulating in the IC in my estimate, and while not all of those get up high enough to be inserted into the PDB, there were dozens of other reports that were in the PDB BESIDES those forty reports. The President receives the top fifteen or twenty, as I understand it (and I might be making a low estimate) reports his advisors feel are most important on a daily basis, and prior to 9/11, there were EIGHT MONTHS worth of PDBs in which those forty reports were scattered. Even taking my lowest estimate of fifteen reports per day for eight months, you still have around 3600 items that the President saw in his daily brief prior to 9/11. Explain to me, please, how those forty reports supposedly stood out over the other approximately 3560 reports he received that year prior to 9/11. Trust me when I say you can't.
The warnings were, in the words of Tenet, unprecedented. His opinion is worth more than yours, or mine. He was around at the time of the Millenium bomb threats, which I believe was the highest level of post war terror alert in the US. Hence we conclude that they were indeed, unprecedented in post war US history.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/pdf/fullreport_errata.pdf
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/...11_timeline&startpos=200&before_9/11=warnings
 
MJD

After the posts in this thread about your friend Scott Forbes and his false or exagerrated claims regarding the power downs in the tower, it became apparent that you were claiming he was keeping very quiet about them because he had been warned by his company to put a sock in it or he would be fired.

You were quite specific in this and the fact that you would like it if we stopped sayiong we would contact his work or he would get in trouble. You said he has attended a few 911 meetings in the UK and posted on a few 911 boards but that is it.

What I want to know is how do you explain the fact I have just heard an interview he has done that was dated the 19 july??

He reiterates all his previous claims in some detail. Does this mean he has now decided to come forward with his claims and ignore the possible threat of repercussions from his company?

How do his claims, as they stand now, cross check with the fact that we now know there was power on floors in the tower that weekend?

Could you chase this up as it seems to make your claims look a bit suspect?

cheers
He is having to keep his head down. Please count the number of interviews he has done post 911, and you will see that he is doing this.

Incidentally, that interview would have happened shortly after the Rodriguez talk I think, which would explain why he would have felt an extra urge to get out and do something. Nonetheless, the above point still stands.
 
So you believe that "hiding something" with regards to the entirety of 9/11 implies "inside job?" Where did you get that particular interpretation?

Also, just as a technical aside, the MOE for the poll is +/-4%, so it's technically correct to say that 16% +/-4% (i.e.g 12 - 20 %) believe the Bush adminstration is hiding nothing about the 9/11 attacks, 49 - 57 % believe they are hiding something, 24 - 32 % believe they is mostly lying about what they knew, and 0 - 7 % are unsure. It doesn't say what the confidence level for the polling is, which is somewhat troubling.

All of which doesn't translate directly into "believe it was an inside job" or anything of the sort. Also, this is current as of October 2002, so you might want to consider getting more recent polling results.

Perhaps if some members of the Truth Movement could actually sponsor a scientific (e.g. as random as possible, unbiased sample) poll with unambiguous questions like "Do you believe that the Bush administration directly planned and carried out the 9/11 attacks using government agents? Yes/No" then you can make more definitive statements about how many people believe what... for whatever that's worth.
You have been posting here for how long? However long it is, you have wasted every single second you have been here. Because you dont understand what the purpose ofthe TM is- hardly any of your herd does. It is not "It was an inside job", rather "There is sufficient evidence of gov complicity to warrant a new investigation". This does also allow us to bypass the cowardly obfuscations that are all too prevalent here.

Understand the movement, and think about what you are doing with your life.
 
That's because it's a response to a REALLY REALLY BAD post. And then your response is an even worse post. Hindsight is 20/20. Why weren't you raising these issues before 9/11? Oh right, YOU DIDN'T KNOW EITHER.

Perhaps you can tell us about all the future terrorist attacks that will happen so we can be ready now? Oh right, you don't know about them, just like everyone else. I guess it would only be fair to still fault you like you arr doing to others.

And you wanna know what? The biggest attack before 9/11 was unprecidented. And so was the one before that. And the one before that. Please stop using conjecture as facts.
errr....

Ok. 1. I am not saying the attacks were unprecedented, rather the warnings. Think before you post if you want me to reply to u.

2. I dont work in the intel community. Tenet does. Clarke does. They both agree with me. They both disagree with you and the rest of your class. Their opinions are worth many times more than yours. End of story.
 

Wikipedia says that the word "skyscraper" is largely dependent on context, but that "at least 20 stories or more are required for a building to be considered a skyscraper".

Marriott had 22 stories. Unless you want to play a semantic game, WTC3 was a skyscraper as any normal person would understand it.

You were just shown to be hideously, hilariously wrong. Suck it up.
 
You have been posting here for how long? However long it is, you have wasted every single second you have been here. Because you dont understand what the purpose ofthe TM is- hardly any of your herd does. It is not "It was an inside job", rather "There is sufficient evidence of gov complicity to warrant a new investigation". This does also allow us to bypass the cowardly obfuscations that are all too prevalent here.

Understand the movement, and think about what you are doing with your life.

Too bad the poll didn't ask that question either, which it easily could have. It's extremely ambiguous, and doesn't support the conclusions you think it does. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've never studied either statistics or sociology (with emphasis on statistical data collection) to any great degree, or you would understand the problems with these polls.

Oh, I think I understand "the movement" quite well. I've seen a motley collection of paranoids, hangers-on, and assorted non-thinkers who are slavishly devoted to ignoring reality while simultaneously claiming that everyone who disagrees with their position is a mindless sheep. I've seen stunning displays of ignorance in various fields of science, politics, history, economics, and government (among other things). I've seen a lot of meaningless, pointless hand waving and nothing of substance.

I think you're just full of hot air, mjd. You're here to posture and prattle about your swell theories, churning out the same rehashed "evidence" as a dozen other posters here before.

Too bad you do nothing. You scream for a new investigation, but you do nothing to further what you claim to support. You can't even expound upon the "evidence" you post here, or respond to challenges to it with more than "see above."

Having seen you in action, I know the probability of you changing your position on anything approaches mathematical insignificance, so I frankly don't give a good god damn about trying to convince you.

I can only hope that any undecided parties privvy to this discussion can compare your cut-and-paste barrages of pseudo-argumentation to the responses from the other posters here and make up their own minds. I've seen too much of the logical black hole that is the "Truth" Movement to hope for much else these days.

See above, mjd1982; your points are already well-trodden, and no one here has to answer to you about anything.
 
1. Which report states this?

Are you being serious
Edited by prewitt81: 
Incivility removed
? It is in the 911 Commission report that you told me to go and read? it is obvious you have not read it.

Disruption operations against al Qaeda–affiliated cells were launched
involving 20 countries. Several terrorist operatives were detained by foreign
governments, possibly disrupting operations in the Gulf and Italy and perhaps
averting attacks against two or three U.S. embassies. Clarke and others told us
of a particular concern about possible attacks on the Fourth of July. After it
passed uneventfully, the CSG decided to maintain the alert.


and these were not the only operations.

2. What was the content of these operations. It doesnt matter if you are running after some chap in Dhaka, if when the FBI have Moussaoui handed to them by the French, the superiors prevent anyone from looking at his laptop even though agents are convinced he is about to fly a plane into the WTC, and recent intel suggests AQ are preparing to hijack planes and cause multiple, simultaneous attacks.

read the report

More to the point, it is common knowledge, understood and publicy stated by Clarke, Tenet and others, that the Bush admin didnt give a monkey's about the terror threat leading up to 911. This has been reported by all and sundry. If you are trying to argue against this, I dont think you are being very serious.

It will be very clear to people on here who is not being serious, it is the person who has twice accused me of being an American even after being told I am not as well as the person who tells me to read the 911 commission report and then fails to recognise information from it when it is posted

pathetic effort
 
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You have been posting here for how long? However long it is, you have wasted every single second you have been here. Because you dont understand what the purpose ofthe TM is- hardly any of your herd does. It is not "It was an inside job", rather "There is sufficient evidence of gov complicity to warrant a new investigation". This does also allow us to bypass the cowardly obfuscations that are all too prevalent here.
So the "Truth Movements" constant chants, t-shirts, signs, etc. that say "9/11 was an inside job" doesn't mean that's what they stand for? So "inside job" is a super-duper secret code that means "new investigation." I knew I should have kept my super spy decoder ring. Thank you for clearing that up.
:boggled:
 
He is having to keep his head down. Please count the number of interviews he has done post 911, and you will see that he is doing this.

Incidentally, that interview would have happened shortly after the Rodriguez talk I think, which would explain why he would have felt an extra urge to get out and do something. Nonetheless, the above point still stands.

You cannot say he is keeping his head down due to some threat from his employers and then say it is OK to give an interview last month??

This makes your claims look rather foolish, if you are keeping your head down you do not do interviews.

Regardless, his claims in the interview are still incorrect as regards the amount of floors that were powered down

I take it this will cause problems with FT now as they will be aware of it?
 
How tragic and deluded. How unbelievably sad. How terrribly pathetic.

What is truly pathetic, tragic and deluded is yourself, dear boy. I have repeatedly offered you an outlet to take your evidence to, you have repeatedly ignored it, dismissed or avoided it. I have offered you an organisation that has 186 countries who have all pledged to bring everybody involved in this crime against humanity to justice. You have repeatedly refused to even consider submitting your evidence to them and I have repeatedly asked you why. This is one of many places you could take your evidence, again you will refuse and again I would ask you why.

I am though asking you questions sunbeam, I am actually going to answer these questions for you. The answer,sunbeam, is because you come from here.

http://www.crank.net/usenet.html

Here you will find yourself along with all the other self important people. This is the world you inhabit, it is the make believe world that the rest of the planet reject. This rejection is your bitter pill. This rejection is the sad reality of your sad little world where you feel so important. It is the pain of being utterly rejected that drives you to come here and call me and anybody else sheep, vile, fools or whatever other label you wish to put on people who further reject you. It is here you vent your fury at the world that totally and utterly rejects you and your pathetic movement. It is here you try to show everybody just how important you are, how everybody should listen to you, everybody should respect and admire your towering intellectual mind and grasp on worlds events. It is here you try desperately to inflate your ego and try desperately to pretend you are not one of lives rejects.

And when you are done, you have achieved nothing, zero. The world moves on, you are still unimportant and so you will remain. I personally have no further use of you, you have served my purpose, and you have proved beyond any shadow of a doubt what a complete and utter waste of time it is to even try and engage in anything other than complete and utter rejection of your silly movement, is pointless. I will leave this thread and engage you no further in this or other thread. Of course you will declare victory and pretend that your superior intellect as defeated yet another sheep. Reality is I simply cannot be bothered reading your self righteous, arrogant, pretentious drivel any longer. You are welcome to your little paranoid world, you deserve it.

Goodbye, little man, I have no doubt you will still be here in another seventy odd pages of mind boggling nonsense, blowing your own trumpet, feeling all self important and pretending you are the saviour of humanity. Humanity has rejected you sunbeam, the entire planet as rejected you, I now join the rest of the planet and reject you.


The end,welcome to ignore.
 
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The warnings were, in the words of Tenet, unprecedented. His opinion is worth more than yours, or mine. He was around at the time of the Millenium bomb threats, which I believe was the highest level of post war terror alert in the US. Hence we conclude that they were indeed, unprecedented in post war US history.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/pdf/fullreport_errata.pdf
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/...11_timeline&startpos=200&before_9/11=warnings

Tenet is one man. Clarke is one man. Do you honestly believe that if the majority of the intelligence community believed the same as these men, that they would keep silent about it? Sorry, no. The majority of the IC views Tenet as a golddigger saying what he says in order to sell his book.

I speak with intelligence professionals daily. I have put the question to them regarding the so-called "unprecedented" warnings, and they have all said that they felt the warnings were not, in fact, unprecedented; unusual certainly, and fairly vivid and obvious in retrospect, but not unprecedented. I also find it interesting that the very report you cite does not mention "unprecedented warnings". It says there was a "significant increase in information indicating bin Laden and Al Qa'ida intended to strike against U.S. interests in the very near future" (bolding mine; note that U.S. interests is a blanket term in the IC referring to any U.S. businesses, embassies, etc both here and abroad) and that "Beginning in 1998 and continuing into the summer of 2001, the Intelligence Community received a modest, but relatively steady, stream of intelligence reporting that indicated the possibility of terrorist attacks within the United States. Nonetheless, testimony and interviews confirm that it was the general view of the Intelligence Community, in the spring and summer of 2001, that the threatened Bin Ladin attacks would most likely occur against U.S. interests overseas, despite indications of plans and intentions to attack in the domestic United States." (again, bolding mine; hardly seems like the IC considered the warnings "unprecedented" doesn't it?). And then there's this:

Finding: Although relevant information that is significant in retrospect regarding the attacks was available to the Intelligence Community prior to September 11, 2001, the Community too often failed to focus on that information and consider and appreciate its collective significance in terms of a probable terrorist attack. Neither did the Intelligence
Community demonstrate sufficient initiative in coming to grips with the new transnational threats. Some significant pieces of information in the vast stream of data being collected were overlooked, some were not recognized as potentially significant at the time and therefore not disseminated, and some required additional action on the part of foreign governments before a direct connection to the hijackers could have been established. For all those reasons, the Intelligence Community failed to fully capitalize on available, and potentially important, information.
(emphasis mine).
Many things are significant in retrospect that were not at the time. That's human nature, to look at an incident in the fullness of time and realize its significance AFTER the fact. Add to that the IC being hampered by the other factors in play, and you realize the issue.

Moving a little further on in the document, we come across this little gem:

Finding: Prior to September 11, the Intelligence Community’s understanding of al-Qa’ida was hampered by insufficient analytic focus and quality, particularly in terms of strategic analysis. Analysis and analysts were not always used effectively because of the perception in some quarters of the Intelligence Community that they were less important to agency counterterrorism missions than were operations personnel. The quality of
counterterrorism analysis was inconsistent, and many analysts were inexperienced, unqualified, under-trained, and without access to critical information. As a result, there was a dearth of creative, aggressive analysis targeting Bin Ladin and a persistent inability to comprehend the collective significance of individual pieces of intelligence. These analytic deficiencies seriously undercut the ability of U.S. policymakers to understand the full nature of the threat, and to make fully informed decisions.

Looks like the warnings might not have been so obvious for the administration, doesn't it? And if they didn't see how obvious the warnings were, how, pray tell, were they to make the best decision possible?

In all honesty, mjd, I find your condescension and know-it-all attitude to be extremely rude and certainly unwarranted. I may not have as much experience as Tenet or Clarke, but I certainly have more experience than you do when it comes to the business of intelligence, AND I have the advantage of having access to individuals who know more than both of them AND myself. I believe I will be joining stateofgrace in no longer responding to your threads, as you have demonstrated time and again you do not care how articulately and knowledgably people respond to you so long as they feed your need for attention. It's sad, and it's wrong, and I will have no further part in it. Feel free to claim your hollow victory if it pleases you, but just remember, you're going to end up dying friendless and alone because you drove everyone away with your condescending BS. Hope that makes you happy.
 
In all honesty, mjd, I find your condescension and know-it-all attitude to be extremely rude and certainly unwarranted. I may not have as much experience as Tenet or Clarke, but I certainly have more experience than you do when it comes to the business of intelligence, AND I have the advantage of having access to individuals who know more than both of them AND myself. I believe I will be joining stateofgrace in no longer responding to your threads, as you have demonstrated time and again you do not care how articulately and knowledgably people respond to you so long as they feed your need for attention. It's sad, and it's wrong, and I will have no further part in it. Feel free to claim your hollow victory if it pleases you, but just remember, you're going to end up dying friendless and alone because you drove everyone away with your condescending BS. Hope that makes you happy.

Yes, that sums it up rather well, I think.

I'm not sure precisely what mjd hopes to accomplish here, but he would be wise to remember that old saying involving small, irritating insects and congealed sugar of some sort or another.
 

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