9/11: How would you have done it?

[Fifediesel]

Why? I'm showing you how someone would not only do 9-11 but probably how the next one will come. Most likly a biological attack...

Your previous comments did not really address the question in the OP. There was a clear implication that a certain company was directly involved in 9/11 itself. I didn't want this thread to get derailed so I asked for the conversation to move to a different thread focusing on your specific topic.

Do you really think they're betting on investing all that time and money to never use the vaccine? What would it take to get the public to want an Anthrax vaccine?

Nobody is debating whether anthrax or some other biological agent poses a threat. The question was about how specifically a government agency could best create a false flag event - What would they do? How would they pull it off without anyone knowing? How many people would be involved? etc.

Other than being linked by anthrax I'm not sure why you chose those five articles specifically. Your articles are about (in order): a worker dying at a vaccine maker's lab, scientists dying after working on bioweapons, problems with mass vacination preparedness, a challenge to Giuliani’s previous statements and a possible change in the manufacturer of America's anthrax vaccine stock.

I freely admit that I could be missing something here, so if I am please feel free to correct me. But as I read it now I'm not sure how this all relates to the original question.

 

[Fifediesel]

Viper Daimao:

The AP spiked material only needed to be installed in the Towers at the very end of the period 1995 - 2001. The chances of a serious fire on the affected floors in that period of time would be very small. Some floors could have also had fire supression systems (using Halon gas), installed as a precaution. These systems could have been deactivated days before the attack.

By the way, if you think about it, only about 4 people IN THE WORLD would have to be "in the loop" as to the details of this plan. You would need one top official at the WTC who made sure company X got the contract to spray on the insulation. One guy in company X to make sure formulation Y was supplied as the proprietary insulation "mix" and supervise its installation. One guy, (probably in the military somewhere), cooking up the AP spiked concoction and shipping it to a warehouse belonging to company X. And one guy to keep an eye on things and deactivate any fire supression systems in the Towers just before 9/11.

Are there previous examples of using the same method (obviously without the need for secrecy) to bring down a building? While it may be technically possible it seems like a big risk for a government to try something like that on such a large scale and with need for such extreme secrecy. Wouldn't it be better to stick with known quantities?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Ok. So then what did Kroll have to do with Silverstein?

Well from what I can tell by tracking done information and press releases, Silverstein and Hauer probably knew each other due to Hauer's work for NYC Emergency management. Otherwise I'd suggest that since Kroll (unlike what it says on the Wikipedia site, something that seems to have been lifted from a Conspiracy Website about July last year when it was created and has parts that haven't been changed, most likely because no one that checked knew better) divested its secruity portfolios in August of 2001, but still did Security Consultations as well as employee screening, it is quite possible that Silverstein Properties approached them to help find a Head of Security for the WTC since that would seem to be part of what they do. It seems that Hauer subsequently introduced Silverstein to O'Neill, a close personal friend who'd just lost his job at the FBI, and Silverstein was so impressed that he wanted O'Neill to start by the first week in September.

This is from Kroll themselves. (written Nov '01)

Kroll Inc. is a global risk consulting company specializing in investigative, intelligence and security services. Headquartered in New York with over 55 offices in 18 countries, Kroll has more than 1,500 employees and serves a multinational clientele of individuals, law firms, corporations, non-profit institutions and government agencies. Through five practice groups, Kroll provides a broad spectrum of services to help clients reduce risks, resolve problems and capitalize on opportunities. These services include business investigations and intelligence; employee and vendor screening; substance abuse testing; video surveillance; forensic accounting; business valuation and recovery; crisis management; institutional, architectural and personal security; executive protection, travel and political risk information; and information security consulting, investigations and training.

The only reference I could find to September 11th from them is the following:

"We clearly will benefit from the large amount of security business the events of September 11th have spurred. The effects of this tragedy in terms of increased demand for security and risk management services are lasting, as evidenced by business booked that will extend well into 2002. We are confident that our organization and our financial resources are where they need to be to address the significant expansion of our business anticipated in the years ahead.''

Absolutlely nothing about them being involved with the WTC at all.

 

[ZENSMACK89]

Your previous comments did not really address the question in the OP. There was a clear implication that a certain company was directly involved in 9/11 itself. I didn't want this thread to get derailed so I asked for the conversation to move to a different thread focusing on your specific topic.



Nobody is debating whether anthrax or some other biological agent poses a threat. The question was about how specifically a government agency could best create a false flag event - What would they do? How would they pull it off without anyone knowing? How many people would be involved? etc.

Other than being linked by anthrax I'm not sure why you chose those five articles specifically. Your articles are about (in order): a worker dying at a vaccine maker's lab, scientists dying after working on bioweapons, problems with mass vacination preparedness, a challenge to Giuliani’s previous statements and a possible change in the manufacturer of America's anthrax vaccine stock.

I freely admit that I could be missing something here, so if I am please feel free to correct me. But as I read it now I'm not sure how this all relates to the original question.

I think that from the history I posted where I started with one company and ended with that same company it shows that their are some that are closely linked to 9-11 that have an invested interest in a future Bio attack. Just how does a company like that stay in business?

 

[ZENSMACK89]

Well from what I can tell by tracking done information and press releases, Silverstein and Hauer probably knew each other due to Hauer's work for NYC Emergency management. Otherwise I'd suggest that since Kroll (unlike what it says on the Wikipedia site, something that seems to have been lifted from a Conspiracy Website about July last year when it was created and has parts that haven't been changed, most likely because no one that checked knew better) divested its secruity portfolios in August of 2001, but still did Security Consultations as well as employee screening, it is quite possible that Silverstein Properties approached them to help find a Head of Security for the WTC since that would seem to be part of what they do. It seems that Hauer subsequently introduced Silverstein to O'Neill, a close personal friend who'd just lost his job at the FBI, and Silverstein was so impressed that he wanted O'Neill to start by the first week in September.

This is from Kroll themselves. (written Nov '01)



The only reference I could find to September 11th from them is the following:



Absolutlely nothing about them being involved with the WTC at all.

So you're asserting the information that WIKI has listed right now about KROLL is false information? KROLL had nothing to do with WTC security?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kroll_Inc.

Kroll was responsible for security of the entire WTC site until it went down in the 9/11 attacks. Local security boss John O’Neill had the job only for about a month and was one of the victims of the incident. He was a well known expert on terrorism and furthermore had knowledge of the building as he had researched the 1993 basement bombing attack on the World Trade Center while in the FBI.

 

[Fifediesel]

I think that from the history I posted where I started with one company and ended with that same company it shows that their are some that are closely linked to 9-11 that have an invested interest in a future Bio attack. Just how does a company like that stay in business?

So you are saying that the best way to create a false flag event is to align a company with government interests and have them carry out the attack?

To stay on topic, what would be the best way for them to carry out the attack without having it traced back to the US government?

 

[LashL]

Viper Daimao:

The AP spiked material only needed to be installed in the Towers at the very end of the period 1995 - 2001. The chances of a serious fire on the affected floors in that period of time would be very small. Some floors could have also had fire supression systems (using Halon gas), installed as a precaution. These systems could have been deactivated days before the attack.

By the way, if you think about it, only about 4 people IN THE WORLD would have to be "in the loop" as to the details of this plan. You would need one top official at the WTC who made sure company X got the contract to spray on the insulation. One guy in company X to make sure formulation Y was supplied as the proprietary insulation "mix" and supervise its installation. One guy, (probably in the military somewhere), cooking up the AP spiked concoction and shipping it to a warehouse belonging to company X. And one guy to keep an eye on things and deactivate any fire supression systems in the Towers just before 9/11.

Woo with a capital W.

 

[Max Photon]

Could ammonium perchlorate have been placed inside perimeter box columns?

---

Apollo20,


Your AP posts are very interesting.

I understand the logic of treating the fire protection material with AP.

If you have a moment, could you please discuss the feasibility of AP being placed INSIDE perimeter-panel box columns.


Also, do you or does anyone know how perimeter-panel bolt-access-holes were sealed?


Thanks,

Max

ETA: I know there was a fire protection plaster, but was there a backing or a cover put in place before the plaster was applied?

---

 

[ZENSMACK89]

So you are saying that the best way to create a false flag event is to align a company with government interests and have them carry out the attack?

To stay on topic, what would be the best way for them to carry out the attack without having it traced back to the US government?

No one really investigates or follows up. Look what happen with the first Anthrax attack. No one caught no one accountable no longer in the press. Most people don't even know about the Jerome Hauer's or the BioPort types.

No one in the public is really worried about a bio attack right now but some people are obviously putting their money down on Anthrax. Just pointing it out.

How would they do it? Have they implemented anything that would stop another Anthrax attack exactly like the first one? It also seems like the business end of it is getting pretty cut-throat with some top experts in the field dropping like flies leaving less people to deal with a possible bio attack. A select few to run to for a vaccine that will be tied to the Government who will tell the public they'll have to give up more of their freedoms in order to secure from another attack.

Step right up and get your Anthrax vaccine. Hurry and don’t be late and don't forget to bring your National RFID Identification Card. Hey maybe they’ll put the RFID right in the vaccine.

 

[PhantomWolf]

So you're asserting the information that WIKI has listed right now about KROLL is false information? KROLL had nothing to do with WTC security?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kroll_Inc.

Kroll was responsible for security of the entire WTC site until it went down in the 9/11 attacks. Local security boss John O’Neill had the job only for about a month and was one of the victims of the incident. He was a well known expert on terrorism and furthermore had knowledge of the building as he had researched the 1993 basement bombing attack on the World Trade Center while in the FBI.

I know what it says on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is NOT 100% accurate, and in this case tracking back through the edits on the page this seems to have been placed into the article back in July last year. It is unreferenced and at the same time the same author added a number of other paragraphs that I had previous located on a CT site, including claiming that Kroll supplied bodyguards for the President (it doesn't, the Secret Service does that) and had done so since WW2 (rather hard since Kroll was fiounded in 1972.) Added to that I went to Kroll's own site and looked through their press release achieves and I could find nothing, nada, zlitch, zero, el blanko, on them having any contracts with the WTC. The only reference to the WTC or 9/11 that I found was the one I quoted above. If they were responsible for the entire security for the WTC pre 9/11, don't you think that there would be something in their archieves considering they go back well before 2001?

So, apart from the CT site that I located, and the unreferenced Wiki entry that initially seems to have been added into the article on July 23rd last year, and then had obviously wrong parts removed since, I can find no evidence that what you claim is true. You better have better evidence that what you have shown here, cause so far its rubbish.

 

[Fifediesel]

No one really investigates or follows up. Look what happen with the first Anthrax attack. No one caught no one accountable no longer in the press. Most people don't even know about the Jerome Hauer's or the BioPort types.

No one in the public is really worried about a bio attack right now but some people are obviously putting their money down on Anthrax. Just pointing it out.

How would they do it? Have they implemented anything that would stop another Anthrax attack exactly like the first one? It also seems like the business end of it is getting pretty cut-throat with some top experts in the field dropping like flies leaving less people to deal with a possible bio attack. A select few to run to for a vaccine that will be tied to the Government who will tell the public they'll have to give up more of their freedoms in order to secure from another attack.

Step right up and get your Anthrax vaccine. Hurry and don’t be late and don't forget to bring your National RFID Identification Card. Hey maybe they’ll put the RFID right in the vaccine.

Would you agree though that, despite essentially having unchecked power, the government would still like to be subtle about a biological attack on its own citizens? There are other countries on this planet who could align against the US in a major way if such an attack were to come blatantly from within the US government.

 

[negativ]

This is not The Greatest Song in the World. This is just a tribute.

Know what I'm sayin'?

 

[ZENSMACK89]

I know what it says on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is NOT 100% accurate, and in this case tracking back through the edits on the page this seems to have been placed into the article back in July last year. It is unreferenced and at the same time the same author added a number of other paragraphs that I had previous located on a CT site, including claiming that Kroll supplied bodyguards for the President (it doesn't, the Secret Service does that) and had done so since WW2 (rather hard since Kroll was fiounded in 1972.) Added to that I went to Kroll's own site and looked through their press release achieves and I could find nothing, nada, zlitch, zero, el blanko, on them having any contracts with the WTC. The only reference to the WTC or 9/11 that I found was the one I quoted above. If they were responsible for the entire security for the WTC pre 9/11, don't you think that there would be something in their archieves considering they go back well before 2001?

So, apart from the CT site that I located, and the unreferenced Wiki entry that initially seems to have been added into the article on July 23rd last year, and then had obviously wrong parts removed since, I can find no evidence that what you claim is true. You better have better evidence that what you have shown here, cause so far its rubbish.

Kroll was hired by the Port Authority after the first WTC attacks and retained through the second attack in 2001

World Trade Center Security
After the 1993 terrorist bombing of the World Trade Center, Kroll was retained as security consultants to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. The security measures and evacuation procedures that the Port Authority instituted on Kroll’s recommendations enabled thousands to evacuate the towers on September 11 in just 45 minutes. Kroll continues to advise on all aspects of the Port Authority’s security. (1993-present)

http://www.panynj.gov/pr/66-98.html
Port Authority Executive Director Robert E. Boyle announced today that the World Trade Center has leased its last remaining large block of space, eight floors in Tower One, to J & H Marsh & McLennan, Inc.


http://www.marshriskconsulting.com/st/PDEv_C_228114_NR_306_PI_451178.htm
Two connections there. Kroll was hired by the port authority and Kroll later became a subsidiary of Marsh & McLennan, Inc.


https://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=new_york_port_authority

Following the 1993 World Trade Center bombing (see February 26, 1993), the New York Port Authority asks investigative and security consulting firm Kroll Associates to help design new security measures for the WTC. Kroll’s Deputy Chairman Brian Michael Jenkins leads the analysis of future terrorist threats and how they might be addressed. Assessments conclude that a second terrorist attack against the WTC is probable. Although it is considered unlikely, the possibility of terrorists deliberately flying a plane into the WTC towers is included in the range of possible threats. [Jenkins and Edwards-Winslow, 9/2003, pp. 11]

 

[ZENSMACK89]

Would you agree though that, despite essentially having unchecked power, the government would still like to be subtle about a biological attack on its own citizens? There are other countries on this planet who could align against the US in a major way if such an attack were to come blatantly from within the US government.

Sure they would. But who would know? They can't even arrest anyone for the first attacks when it could only have come from a few sources. How much more subtle then that can you get?

 

[Fifediesel]

Sure they would. But who would know? They can't even arrest anyone for the first attacks when it could only have come from a few sources. How much more subtle then that can you get?

That case is still unsolved to be sure. But those attacks involved mailing a few envelopes to senators and news reporters. What we are talking about is a biological attack on a mass scale. My original question was about how would you create a government sponsored 9/11 while still managing to hide all the evidence AND blame someone else for the attacks.

If you think a biological attack makes the most sense then it would have to be a major attack in a major city, perhaps even multiple cities. While the original anthrax scare might only involve one or two people a massive bio attack on US cities would be significantly more complex for a variety of reasons.

For starters, you would need a significant amount of anthrax. That quantity will be easier for agencies to track. Remember, the "government" is not a monolithic group. Someone from the FBI, CIA, etc might snoop around and quickly discover that it came from a government bio weapons lab. Then you would need to have a distribution mechanism -- and no, a lone NWO agent mailing letters to everyone in New York does not count. Would you use some sort of weapon? Something new? Then finally, you would have to come up with a reasonable way of explaining how all of this was done by a third party, let's say OBL and company for the sake of argument. When did they gain access to such quantities of biological weapons? That would indicate a huge growth in capability.

So your idea isn't completely out of the question but it needs a lot more detail.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Viper Daimao:

The AP spiked material only needed to be installed in the Towers at the very end of the period 1995 - 2001. The chances of a serious fire on the affected floors in that period of time would be very small. Some floors could have also had fire supression systems (using Halon gas), installed as a precaution. These systems could have been deactivated days before the attack.

By the way, if you think about it, only about 4 people IN THE WORLD would have to be "in the loop" as to the details of this plan. You would need one top official at the WTC who made sure company X got the contract to spray on the insulation. One guy in company X to make sure formulation Y was supplied as the proprietary insulation "mix" and supervise its installation. One guy, (probably in the military somewhere), cooking up the AP spiked concoction and shipping it to a warehouse belonging to company X. And one guy to keep an eye on things and deactivate any fire supression systems in the Towers just before 9/11.

Now that is a wicked theory. It satisfies so many necessary criteria, including how to avoide detection and how to minimize the numbers of people in the know.

 

[Apollo20]

Fifediesel:

The AP spiked insulation method of demolition could have been tested by the US army as a "stealth weapon" or it could have been developed by some overseas millitary "special ops" group. Any plot to take down the Towers would have involved some risk of discovery, but a spiked insulation technique MINIMIZES the risk. Only a few people would have to be "in on it."

It could be carried out in much the same way as the IRA carried out its bombings in the UK. Each IRA operative only dealt with two other operatives, one "above" and one "below" so to speak. For example, the guy making the spiked insulation, (i.e. the bomb explosive), would be told where to ship the material. He wouldn't have to know anything about its intended use. Similarly the guy picking up the spiked material wouldn't need to know who made it or even the fact that the material was spiked, and so on. Thus the possibility of betrayal or infiltration of the operation is minimized. This is how the IRA was able to operate for so long in the UK without being exposed.

Max Photon:

Provided there was access, it would have been quite feasible to place AP INSIDE perimeter-panel box columns. However, this would have probably been detected since there was no need to place ANYTHING inside a box column. That is NOT the case for the sprayed on insulation which WAS NEEDED. Hence no one would question or consider anything suspicious about a group of guys coming in to spray some "fireproofing" on a whole bunch of floors.

 

[uk_dave]

It could be carried out in much the same way as the IRA carried out its bombings in the UK. Each IRA operative only dealt with two other operatives, one "above" and one "below" so to speak. For example, the guy making the spiked insulation, (i.e. the bomb explosive), would be told where to ship the material. He wouldn't have to know anything about its intended use. Similarly the guy picking up the spiked material wouldn't need to know who made it or even the fact that the material was spiked, and so on. Thus the possibility of betrayal or infiltration of the operation is minimized. This is how the IRA was able to operate for so long in the UK without being exposed.

No. That only works if you want to keep members of the conspiracy secret from each other, not have members unaware that that they are part of the conspiracy. They know that as soon as the 'false flag' is initiated and they see it on tv, just as the individual members of the IRA cell know that they were part of an attack, even if they don't know the identities of all the other participants.

Your theory regarding the low number of operatives also depends on the actual workers who apply the iffy coating not realising that they may have been part of some conspiracy after the event. The conspiracy is still impossibly vast and open to exposure by people concluding that the 'innocent' work they carried out prior to 911 might have actually been part of the attack.

911 was still an overly complex, dangerous plot for what the CTers would have us believe it was trying to achieve.

 

[ZENSMACK89]

That case is still unsolved to be sure. But those attacks involved mailing a few envelopes to senators and news reporters. What we are talking about is a biological attack on a mass scale. My original question was about how would you create a government sponsored 9/11 while still managing to hide all the evidence AND blame someone else for the attacks.

If you think a biological attack makes the most sense then it would have to be a major attack in a major city, perhaps even multiple cities. While the original anthrax scare might only involve one or two people a massive bio attack on US cities would be significantly more complex for a variety of reasons.

For starters, you would need a significant amount of anthrax. That quantity will be easier for agencies to track. Remember, the "government" is not a monolithic group. Someone from the FBI, CIA, etc might snoop around and quickly discover that it came from a government bio weapons lab. Then you would need to have a distribution mechanism -- and no, a lone NWO agent mailing letters to everyone in New York does not count. Would you use some sort of weapon? Something new? Then finally, you would have to come up with a reasonable way of explaining how all of this was done by a third party, let's say OBL and company for the sake of argument. When did they gain access to such quantities of biological weapons? That would indicate a huge growth in capability.

So your idea isn't completely out of the question but it needs a lot more detail.

There's plenty of ways they can do it. They can spread it with a crop duster for instance. I don't think it's a problem finding ways to spread it on a mass scale if that's the plan. That being said I don't think it would take hundreds of thousands of people to first get Anthrax before the general public seeks out a vaccine at mass level. There would just have to be a sustained amount of periodic attacks even on a low number to scare people enough to endorse getting vaccinated on a mass scale in addition to having more of their liberties taken away.

 

[ZENSMACK89]

Oh, you you don't think that it's possible that Jerome Hauer might have thought that Osama was involved due to the fact that he was a very close friend of John O'Neill, a man who's career in the FBI had been spend chasing OBL, and who the night before had gone to dinner with Hauer and a bunch of other friends, and in a discussion on OBL has said, "We're due. And we're due for something big. Some things have happened in Afghanistan. I don't like the way things are lining up in Afghanistan. I sense a shift, and I think things are going to happen." Asked when, he had replied, "I don’t know, but soon."

Might this conversation played any part in Hauer's thinking that OBL was involved when the US was attacked the very next day? possibly?

Oh, and can you tell me the source of that recollected conversation? It wouldn’t be Jerome Hauer would it? That’s right John O’Neill was the greatest expert on Bin Laden the US had and would have been the best to assess if UBL was capable and behind the attacks of 9-11. You could say from O’Neill’s history that if at any point he smelled a rat in the official line he would have spoken up about it. But we’ll never know now.