[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

[SOMERLED]

These are the Stundies. Named for a CTer who had a way with stupidity.

Your nominations start here.

These are awarded monthly. The July nominations close on 1 August, voting will run until the beginning of September. The winner of the July Stundie will be announced shortly thereafter.

Will I get a cup or a certificate or something?
I'd better start working on an acceptance speech.

 

[Belz...]

You have an explosion at the Pengaton

Holy hell. Pengaton. Sorry, people.

... and a plane that's almost at ground level. At the speed it's going, thousands of people are going to have a VERY close look at a 757 on its way back up. So WHERE did it go that nobody saw it leave the area ?

Would you mind answering this, Malcolm ? How did the plane leave the area unnoticed ? This is Washington D.C., not Alert.

 

[Belz...]

Quick to insult people when you think you're on a roll eh.
Stick around, just a few more posts from me will see you heading for the hills.

How ?

Are preparing to magically prove your claims about IV bags ? Even if many people here, including myself, have proven you wrong on this ?

Or are you going to magically prove that the 757 at the Pentagon (or Pengaton, depending) dissapeared without a trace ?

Or is your slam-dunk proof of 9/11 being an inside job "about to be revealed" just like Lyte Trip's ?

I've a couple of surprises for you.

Then by all means, Malcolm. Amaze us.

 

[Trifikas]

Regarding the IV bag.The row would end in a stalemate. I would be contending that the military buy in bulk. That they would only buy IV bags that didn't have to be held up in the air, because medics in the field would get shot, to say nothing of the bag getting ripped to shreds.
I didn'texpect the wholesale attack from all sides, but there you go, the pack mentality at work when it smells blood. I tried to shorten the matter by collecting all the 'drip feeds' in one lot, but that hasn't worked and I can see the matter rolling on interminably.
Next would come an admission that all had to have seen the photos and something that no one could argue about, namely the grass barrier being painted out.
Would you care to address the grass and the barrier.
It's here,
kindly forego any comments about Jack White. These are govt photos.
http://www.911studies.com/911photostudies5.htm

What stalemate? Is it reasonable that even if they had pressure IV whatsits, due to the casualties, they had to resort to the good old-fashioned, tried-and-true method of gravity-fed bags when they found they didn't have enough pressure IV thing-a-ma-bobs on hand? It's an Emergency, you go with what you have on hand.

As for the Grass - Moot argument. If you're faking the picture, you're sampling the rest of the pic to match the color. you won't get the color of the grass wrong if you're faking it. Considering the grass gets greener again further back in the shot, we're looking more at something more akin to a landscaping issue, not a faked photo.

As for the Barrier - it even says right in the text that the photo was taken a few days later. What would prevent them from building the guard rail? (assuming that's what it is. it's so hard to tell from the arial shot, but it doesn't look like the guardrail by the road.)

But heck, let's have some fun! who wants to play guess what was airbrushed out of the pic?

I'll get the traditional JREF guess out of the way by saying it was....Planet X!

 

[SOMERLED]

There's quite a bit of technical difficulty. Engineering a system to do that would require the work of dozens, if not hundreds, of engineers, and more technicians to implement it.



Just like he has done with so many other points that he's been proven wrong on. Remember how he stuck to the claim that "verb transitive" is correct?

You conveniently omit to say that Raytheon had already done it.
Point one from my very first post,
Raytheon, in Aug 2001, flew a passenger jet, take off – flight around – landing. (Der Spiegel).

 

[Belz...]

I haven't finished with IV's, I've barely started.

You should pick the Black Knight as your avatar.

1. Different types of IV bags.

Irrelevant, since you said the gravity (air pressure)-driven bags were no longer used.

2. The type the military would prefer.

Same answer.

3. The type of establishment that is the Pentagon.

It's an office building.

4. The photos.

Uh-huh.

I can see a few of the brighter posters already heading for the hills.

Only in the Truther mind does a crushing defeat sound like a resounding victory.

Why don't you simply admit that you're wrong, Malcolm ?

Why is that impossible for you ?

 

[sts60]

[To huntsman]A most comprehensive reply and I will concede the point to your greater knowledge.

Wow! Congratulations. Admitting you're wrong - on something about which you were so vociferously adamant - is admirable.

I'll lurk now, as I was mainly interested in the IV thing, but before I do -

MortFurd: There's gravity inside a TV tube. There is no air in a TV tube.
malcolm kirkman: Your first sentence is incorrect.

No, it wasn't. A television cathode-ray tube is a vacuum tube. Vacuum has nothing to do with keeping gravity out. As part of the work for which I get paid, we tested a satellite in a thermal/vacuum chamber. A quartz component to an antenna came loose, fell, and shattered on the chamber floor during the test. Gravity at work, in a vacuum.

Much more generally, though, if a vacuum meant there was no gravity, you wouldn't be able to watch satellite TV or see pictures from weather satellites, as they wouldn't be gravitationally bound to the Earth. Of course, since the Earth would be merrily zipping off away from the Sun, you'd have more pressing concerns.

The presence or absence of a vacuum has nothing to do with the presence of gravitational force. Period. But again, congratulations on manning up and admitting you were wrong about the IV bag thing.

 

[SOMERLED]

fig 3.8 on page 16 of the of the NIST pentagon building report

you posted a cropped version of this, you did not post the whole photograph

why was that?

Why do you ask. Why do you think I posted the picture?

 

[SOMERLED]

I heard about this but I didn't believe it.

Pressure-infusion IVs are of two types: 1) large battery-powered machines that look like this; or 2) smaller hand-pumped cuffs like this.

The large machine is more reliable. It's also more expensive and needs a power source. Also, and this is the fun part, the IV bag must still be hung above it because the pump is still fed by gravity.

The hand-pumped cuffs are less expensive but they are also less accurate and, in any case, are still far, far more expensive than just a plain plastic bag that works fine when held above the patient. An IV bag filled with 500 ml of dextrose solution is about seven bucks and probably a lot less when ordered in massive quantity. A pressure infusion cuff is eighty-five dollars. You are literally spending money for something the earth gives you for free.

Now, we could make jokes about the military paying twelve times too much for equipment, but let's not. If I were in military procurement, I'd probably want the most reliable equipment at the cheapest price. Plastic bags held above the patient are cheap and they work. I'm already paying the medic so I might as well have him hold the bag up as well. Once he's inside the ambulance, a small hook on the ceiling can take over the duties of holding the bag. Once at the hospital, an aluminum pole could probably do the job.

But there's another reason not to use pressure cuffs and lay the IV on the ground: it's dirty on the ground. With any traumatic wound, infection is a major worry. The ground is where all sorts of bacteria and bugs and nasty things live. Putting the bag in the air makes it just that much harder for infection to take hold.

Honestly - I have had five open-heart surgeries and plenty of other procedures to go with them. I've been taken by ambulance several times. I have never had anything but a gravity-fed IV in the ambulance. In the hospital, it has been gravity-fed eight times our of ten.

There has to be a local ambulance corps near you. Why don't you wander over on your lunch break and ask them?

Can I interest you in looking at some photos?

 

[Belz...]

Bankers first and foremost are moneylenders. They love war. They land both sides money for bullets, then when the war is over, they lend both sides money for bricks to rebuild.

Source, please. Or is this yet ANOTHER baseless claim ? Or is it just "common knowledge" ?

Does common standard practise hold sway on a battlefield.

Irrelevant. You said NO ONE used gravity-fed IVs, anymore.

Stick around, watch a spider at work.

Still waiting for that web.

I would be contending that the military buy in bulk. That they would only buy IV bags that didn't have to be held up in the air, because medics in the field would get shot, to say nothing of the bag getting ripped to shreds.

What you contend is irrelevent. What is IS.

A most comprehensive reply and I will concede the point to your greater knowledge.

Does that mean that you condede that IV bags are held up, still today ?

These so called 'terrorists' were part of the cover story. Don't pretend you don't know all about them going to Officer's Clubs etc.

I'm going to do more than pretend, I'll flat-out say that I have no idea what you're talking about.

Furthermore, undercover, these fanatics are expected to blend in, and yes, that means breaking the 'islaming code', if that's what you're talking about.

 

[Rolfe]

Is the same true for a TV tube?

What is a TV tube made of, Malcolm?

GLASS.

Is glass collapsible?

NO.

Therefore, a TV tube can hold a vacuum.

The whole point about infusion bags is that they are made of polythene, and so collapse down as they empty. This has been pointed out to you numerous times, and you ignore it.

Regarding the IV bag.The row would end in a stalemate. I would be contending that the military buy in bulk. That they would only buy IV bags that didn't have to be held up in the air, because medics in the field would get shot, to say nothing of the bag getting ripped to shreds.
I didn'texpect the wholesale attack from all sides, but there you go, the pack mentality at work when it smells blood. I tried to shorten the matter by collecting all the 'drip feeds' in one lot, but that hasn't worked and I can see the matter rolling on interminably.

Indeed, Malcolm. Matters tend to roll on interminably when you shift your ground every time you are shown to be wrong, and open yourself to a whole new range of arguments.

You first argued that anyone with any medical knowledge would spot that the photo was staged, as gravity feed infusion administration had been obsolete for decades. This has been conclusively shown to be wrong by more posts than I care to reference. Do you now acknowledge that this assumption is wrong?

Then you attempted to claim that it was impossible for these bags to function as seen, because there was no BIG hole there to let gravity in. You've been so slaughtered on this I almost feel sorry for you, but I've not seen any explicit acknowledgement of error. Do you now acknowledge that these standard systems do work as described, with the bag collapsing down on itself as it empties?

Now you have decided to contend that you know better than Huntsman what a military casualty team would be equipped with, and that the possibility that no, they might well be equipped with the standard gravity fed sets that everybody uses is so remote that again, the picture must have been staged. Though how you're going to reconcile this with your initial claim that the gravity fed sets were so obsolete in 2001 that any medical person would recognise the photos as being staged, I don't know.

If it hadn't been for MortFurd, you wouldn't even have known about the pressure sets that were evaluated in 1989. You are only guessing what the military would have been buying in 2001. Huntsman is doing more than guessing. Perhaps you might consider that as the military buy in bulk, the vastly higher cost of the pressurised systems would be a major factor? When you add to that the universality of the gravity-fed system, the ease of use, the lack of requirement for specially-trained personnel, the lack of requirement for a power source, and the problem with pressure decay that was mentioned in the evaluation, you might wonder if your convenient "contention" that the military would unarguably have stocked up on them might be a bit hasty. (And now I read the evaluation in more detail, I see they didn't actually recommend the pressure systems - although there is a statement that these are desirable in principle, the evaluation also reported a problem encountered.)

So, Malcolm:

• Gravity-fed i/v infusion systems are still standard issue in 2007, let alone 2001, and no medically knowledgeable person would immediately assume that a picture purporting to show such a system in 2001 must be a fake. Agreed?
• The saline in these systems is supplied in flexible polythene containers, which collapse down as they empty, thus preventing the formation of a vacuum (as might occur if a rigid container were used) and allowing the bag to empty without any need for another opening to let air (or even gravity) in. Agreed?
• You have actually no knowledge at all about what the military might or might not have been buying in bulk in 2001, apart from what Huntsman has told you. You are in no position to assert that any emergency which happened to occur right outside a military office building (in the middle of Washington) would inevitably have been attended by first responders equipped with anything other than ordinary gravity-fed devices. Agreed?

The pray carry on.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Mortfurd said:

There's gravity inside a TV tube. There is no air in a TV tube.

TV tubes are sealed to prevent air getting in, not to keep gravity out.

Malcolm, I really think you need to stop. Every word you write makes your position worse.

To which Malcolm responded:

Your first sentence is incorrect.

Malcolm, are you really, really, trying to say that gravity doesn't act in a vacuum? Truly?

How do you think the lunar astronauts stayed feet down on the moon? Even more relevant, have you ever heard of the classic experiment with the guinea and the feather? Here too. And here. Dammit, Google it yourself.

Please, please, think about this.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

A most comprehensive reply and I will concede the point to your greater knowledge.

OK, that's one point out of the way. Malcolm concedes that ordinary drip-fed infusions are standard, would be used as standard by the military, and that there is nothing unusual or remarkable at all in the actions of the "bagman".

Fine, but on the way past he declared that it was actually impossible for such systems to function as shown, because there was no BIG hole in the top to let gravity (or even air) inside.

Malcolm, do you now understand how they work, by collapsing flat as they empty? Do you now concede that they do actually work as described, with no need for a BIG hole?

Do you understand that gravity is present everywhere within range of a sufficiently large body of mass? (In fact everywhere, and that the "zero-G" of space is more correctly termed "Microgravity".) Do you understand that gravity still acts on objects in a vacuum, such as inside a cathode ray tube (old-style TV) and the guinea and feather experiment I illustrated?

You see, this is where you end up if you simply fire off with ill-thought-out defensive salvos. Whereas you could quite easily have conceded that you were mistaken when several medically-trained people posted that the gravity-fed drip tubes were still standard issue, you chose to insult us, accuse us of parading our qualifications and demanding respect.

So no, you're not off the hook.

Do you understand about atmospheric pressure and gravity, and how they are essentially different things? Do show us that you've learned something, if you possibly can.

Rolfe.

 

[VespaGuy]

Your first sentence is incorrect.

Oh my. Malcolm is on a roll.

Malcolm just HAS to be fake. I fail to believe that someone this dumb can operate a computer.

(In case I'm wrong... that's not a drink-holder, Malcolm. That's where you put the CDs and DVDs)

 

[PixyMisa]

Your first sentence is incorrect.

Malcolm, if you can demonstrate that there is no gravity inside a TV tube, you will have an invention worth hundreds of billions of dollars.

Go for it.

 

[SOMERLED]

This IV discussion is ridiculous. Just tonight, my father had chest pains and I called an ambulence. In our town, the EMTs are firefighters too and they were a little shorthanded because of a bad accident on the local freeway. I held up the freaken' bag myself until they got the pole thing set up. The bag is always elevated, whether by hand or on a hook. Hasn't pretty much everybody witnessed this at one time or another in a hospital or vets office?




How would this alleged Offutt option be "proven and trouble free" when it had never been done before and if done this way, would open up an enormous amount of holes in the supposed "cover story" and add significant numbers to the legion of accomplices that would need to be kept quiet?

You're only presuming Offutt to be some easy answer because you have chosen who you want the prime suspects to be and are now scrambling to make a theory fit with that. It doesn't work that way. You have to follow the evidence and the evidence will lead to your suspects and theories.

The mass of evidence tells us that Al Qaeda has been plotting against US interests as an entity since 1989, with them merging with Egyptian Islamic Jihad and the hybrid organization declaring war on the US and Israel in 1996. They have engineered dozens of attacks over the last nearly two decades. The September 11 attacks bear all the hallmarks of an Al Qaeda attack, including: meticulous planning (provided perhaps most prominantly by Ramzi Yousef and Khalid Sheik Mohammad), coordinated hits on at least two targets within minutes of each other, the choosing of highly symbolic targets to attack, and suicide attackers who spent time training in Afghanistan and left behind mission statements and/or "martyr" videos intending the whole world to see them. Oh yeah, and they also confessed once they got busted.

With regard to Offutt, will you visit my very first post, post No.1.

 

[Rolfe]

Yes, maybe this is flogging the proverbial dead horse, but Malcolm still has some explaining to do. It's not just a matter of his conceding (finally) that Huntsman actually knows what he's talking about, it's the gravity lunacy.

This is a combined post to yourself, Rolfe and any other drip feeds.
Now I remember why I never fancied being a schoolteacher.
Altogether now, after me,
In order to have GRAVITY feed, you must first have GRAVITY.
No BIG hole in the top of the bag = no chance for GRAVITY to act = the photo is staged.

Not that you believed the military didn't use that system, Malcolm, but that the photo was staged because of "No BIG hole in the top of the bag = no chance for GRAVITY to act".

Talking about having a pee, pressure is applied.
Where is that pressure applied on a sealed bag?
The bag is sealed. Air pressure won't empty it any different three feet from the ground or six feet from the ground.

This was the answer you simply ignored, apart from asking what a Stundie is. (I reckon you're about to find out.) I said:

The only way sealing a container will prevent it from emptying is if the container is rigid. (Like, for example, a toilet stack if the outlet pipe is blocked.) You can use this property to measure atmospheric pressure, and surely you did this at school. Atmospheric pressure is measured as how high a column of mercury can be supported under a vacuum. Mercury is used because it is heavy, but water behaves the same way - it's just less practical as you'd need a column many feet high.

But this DEPENDS ON THE CONTAINER NOT BEING ABLE TO COLLAPSE.
If the container is flexible, like a hot water bottle or a plastic bag, no vacuum can form above the departing liquid, because the air pressure on the outside simply allows the bag to collapse leaving no dead space. This is why flexible bags or thin polythene bottles are used when one wants the contents to flow freely out.

[You can use a rigid bottle, and they used to use rigid bottles back in the dim and distant past - think MASH - but these required some way of letting AIR in, to prevent the vacuum forming and allow the fluid to flow. I've used such bottles for administering chloral hydrate anaesthetic intravenously, and the solution there was to incorporate a flutter valve. The snag with that is that you have to be quick to stop the flow once the bottle is empty, ot the air might go right on flowing into the veins, which is universally agreed to be a Bad Thing. The advantage of using a flexible container which collapses down is that no air is allowed in, and so once the bag is empty the flow will stop of its own accord. It's not GRAVITY you need to let in, Malcolm, it's AIR. But only if the container is rigid enough to allow a vacuum to form.]

You're throwing your 'qualifications' about. I daresay some one here would call it an 'argument from authority'.
I call it attempting to win an arguement by demanding respect from a position of elitism.
Now you knowwhat I think of elitists.
So you and I will hammer this one out between us.

You see, Malcolm, you haven't apologised for this, or for any of the other insults you hurled at the medcally-qualified people who tried to put you right. So let's hear more about this BIG hole and the necessity for gravity to get in, until you understand.

1. (irrelevant now)
2. How long does it take to empty such a bag. Bearing in mind the varying rates of drip. What would be the average time for such a bag to empty?
Or are you all bark and no bite.

You had your answer. I don't know why you wanted to know, but here it is again.

How long is a piece of string? Specifically, how long do you want it to take? Bags come in 500ml and 1000ml sizes, as standard. They're just bags of salty water, with a port where you can shove the sharp bit at the end of the giving set. It's the giving set that controls the rate. These things incorporate a "drip chamber" which you can see in several of Spitfire's pictures. This is a chamber with a little bit of air through which the fluid has to drip to get down the tube. (Another reason for not laying down the whole thing is it can mess up the operation of the drip chamber, which has to be more or less vertical to work properly.) The purpose of the drip chamber is to allow the flow rate of the fluid to be directly observed. You just count the number of drips falling in, say, 30 seconds or a minute, and that tells you how fast the fluid is flowing into the patient.
The flow rate is regulated by a little thumbwheel or similar device that is fitted to the tube below the drip chamber, and squeezes the tube more or less depending on how you adjust it. More squeeze, more resistance to flow, slower administration. Less squeeze, less resistance, faster flow. Just adjust to requirements, and count the rate the drops are falling to ensure you've got it right.

The size of the drop is determined by the diameter of the tubing entering the drip chamber. Most giving sets are rated at approximately 10 drops/ml. So, if you have a 500ml bag, that's 5000 drops. If you set the drip rate at a drop a second, that would be 5000 seconds, or an hour and 23 minutes. In hospitals, where the drip is often being used just as maintenance for patients on nil by mouth, you'll often see it a lot slower than that, maybe only a drop every three or four seconds. In that case it would take three or four times as long to empty the bag. But on the other hand in an emergency when fast replacement is required, you may set it much higher, even open the thumbwheel entirely, in which case the flow rate will depend on the resistance of the rest of the system - the tubing and the actual i/v catheter being used.

Why was this so important? Something to do with the BIG hole and the absence of gravity in default of that?

How about it, Malcolm?

Rolfe.

 

[SOMERLED]

Malcolm, if you can demonstrate that there is no gravity inside a TV tube, you will have an invention worth hundreds of billions of dollars.

Go for it.

How do you think the electrons get from the tube neck components to the inside face of the screen?

 

[SOMERLED]

Oh my. Malcolm is on a roll.

Malcolm just HAS to be fake. I fail to believe that someone this dumb can operate a computer.

(In case I'm wrong... that's not a drink-holder, Malcolm. That's where you put the CDs and DVDs)

What's wrong with what I wrote?

 

[VespaGuy]

What's wrong with what I wrote?

You mean in this thread? Everything.