Derren Brown Trick or treat

[skipjack]

Not necessarily, volatile; in the classic vanishing birdcage trick, for example, you do know what happens in general terms, but it happens so fast that you can't see in detail what happens or how the prop functions. If you blink, you miss it! In some card tricks, the magician needn't handle the cards at all, yet somehow they predict what card the spectator selects (or whatever the effect is). I've done one such myself informally; just named a card and let the spectator choose a card at random from 52 different cards - the very card I had named.

You say your friend was "resolutely not an actor", yet they "responded to a casting request". That doesn't quite add up. By the way, I thought you were going to find out in which show your friend appeared, and provide a link if possible.

I suggest, 3point14, that you read my posts and avoid being misled by what others inaccurately claim I've said.

 

[Bob Klase]

What do you mean by "may lie"? They all lie! Magicians earn their livings, to a man, by lying.

Not true. Not all magicians lie (although most do). In most cases I wouldn't call it a lie anymore than you call it a lie when an actor says things in a script that aren't really true. And there are at least a few magicians that never lie (I believe Jerry Anders is one).

Most of the time it's much better to avoid lying and instead lead the audience to form their own wrong conclusions.

Of course if you want to consider that "lying" (particularly in the context of a performance) then every single person in entertainment lies. Comedians 'lie' when they tell a jokes that didn't really happen. Actors all lie when they read scripts. Directors, stunt men and special effects people lie when they put things on the screen that are different than what they appear. Even singers lie when they sing things that aren't true.

 

[volatile]

Well, you're right of course, Bob. What I meant was - magicians play on the "magicality" of their tricks. These tricks always have a mundane explanation, but it is the magician's craft to conceal this. Magic is "tricks" - that's what I meant by "lying".

I don't mind this, of course - and indeed, its a fundamental part of the enjoyment of magic to know that you've been fooled by a prosaic, material trick. Skippy seems to have a huge problem with this, though, and that's why I take him to task.

 

[volatile]

You say your friend was "resolutely not an actor", yet they "responded to a casting request". That doesn't quite add up. By the way, I thought you were going to find out in which show your friend appeared, and provide a link if possible.

An advert in the paper saying "Do you want to be on Derren Brown's show? Call now!", appealing for members of the public, is not how one hires professional actors, Skip. I'm sure you know that. She's a biologist, not an actor. An extrovert biologist, certainly - but a biologist none the less.

Apparently the episode was on British TV this week. She can't remember exactly which episode it was, but I've asked her to track down the info for me. I'll let you know.

 

[3point14]

I suggest, 3point14, that you read my posts and avoid being misled by what others inaccurately claim I've said.

Since reading the rest of your posts, the question still stands.

 

[DJM]

Anyone can read the law books. You need permission (which Derren didn't have and couldn't have got without being, say, a police officer) for a real pistol, whether it is loaded or not, and whether you're on the UK mainland or in Jersey. That is the law; it has nothing to do with what Lenny Harper told Reuters. The problem doesn't arise in the various countries with less strict gun laws. If Derren could legally have had a real pistol, the question of what types of ammunition he could legally use would not have arisen. The question of danger didn't arise simply because the pistol wasn't real and real ammunition wasn't used.

But I just gave you a quote from the police that they did give then permission, that's after they talked to the production to make sure it's all safe. Derren isn't a criminal nor a teenager, he's a magician and he used the gun to make magic, not to kill anyone or use it the wrong way. Once the police found the real details (maybe even heard about the secret of the trick) then they didn't see any problem with it.. just like no one has a problem with Penn and Teller holding a gun even though they are not police officers.. didn't I tell you to read my post a few times? Because I feel lke I'm repeating myself.

In one of the Trick or Treat episodes, Derren stated during the episode, that he was using a whole bunch of actors. I am not against Derren, and I didn't say I was.

What do you meant by that?! He only used actors during the signing the agreements parts in the background, which was obvious even without him talking about it. It was done just to make it more dramatic for the real spectator.

What's even your point by mentioning it? Weird stuff.

 

[Bob Klase]

I don't mind this, of course - and indeed, its a fundamental part of the enjoyment of magic to know that you've been fooled by a prosaic, material trick. Skippy seems to have a huge problem with this, though, and that's why I take him to task.

Believe me, I'm not on Skippy's side of this discussion. If he ever had a point it's been lost (and re-reading parts of the thread it was wrong to begin with).

 

[Azrael 5]

skipjack is a law expert now! Well blow me down.

Read this link skipjack I've quoted it as well for clarifaction of points.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3169388.stm

"There was no live ammunition involved and at no time was anyone at risk," said Lenny Harper, Detective Chief Officer for the States of Jersey police.
"A prop company brought a number of props to the island and they included a quantity of blank ammunition.
"There is absolutely no way that the States of Jersey police would allow anybody to put themselves at risk and shoot themselves dead."

We were absolutely satisfied that no-one was in any danger whatsoever

Superintendent John Pearson

Superintendent John Pearson said Jersey police were informed of the stunt before it took place.
However, having examined how the stunt would work, they were satisfied it would not break any of the island's gun laws.

No mention that it wasn't a real gun.

Asked if he had been concerned that somebody was going to fire a loaded gun at their head, he said: "If what was portrayed on TV was going to happen, then we did have concerns.
"So a senior officer contacted Channel 4 and then we found out.
"We were absolutely satisfied that, firstly, there would no offences committed in Jersey in relation to any laws at all and secondly, that no-one was in any danger whatsoever."

Well it's an illusion at the end of the day.Though he doesn't say what laws? Channel 4 probably told a couple of white lies anyway.

No offences committed
Handguns are illegal in the UK. Mr Pearson pointed out that certain firearm legislation in Jersey was in fact tougher than the UK.
For instance, unlike the UK, it was illegal to hold an airgun in Jersey without a licence.

That sounds like police speak for "we dont want to say what the gun situation is really so here's a soundbite" Derren definetly didn't use an air rifle so no law broken there!

He said the Jersey police had contacted Channel 4 after being alerted by a national newspaper that the show was to be filmed on the island.

So Channel 4 were to film a Russian Roulette show and didn't bother contacting the authorites?! Highly unlikely.

Channel 4 would only say in a statement: "In making and broadcasting this programme, Channel 4 was very mindful of its responsibility to ensure the safety of all involved and liaised with the Jersey police in advance of filming there to ensure that no offences were committed."

Here is an article on jersey gun laws:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/jersey/6217798.stm

More than 11,000 firearms are legally owned by islanders,The Home Affairs Department also said the type of guns that could be brought into Jersey was to be reviewed. All imported weapons need a licence.

Dated 2006 ,after Derren's show.So again skipjack this statement of yours

The results were widely reported. Derren didn't have permission for a real pistol. The issue certainly wasn't just the use of live rounds. The police definitely confirmed that there was no danger at all in what Derren did. .

..isn't true.Where in the interview I quoted does it say he didn't have permission for a live pistol.He said no gun laws were broken.Seeing as 11,000 Jersey residents have a live gun I assume that wasn't one of the laws.

That implies no live rounds and no blanks either

In your opinion.I took it to imply Mickey Mouse was on standby with a band aid! That's the thing with implications.

 

[skipjack]

DJM, you quoted the police as saying "We knew before this stunt took place that there was no risk of serious injury to anybody and we discussed this with Channel Four in some detail before it took place". Contrary to your claim, the quote doesn't mention permission at all, let alone permission to use a real pistol. It implies the police had been told why the stunt involved no risk of serious injury. They would have been told that Derren would not use a real pistol or real ammunition, making the conclusion inevitable.

Edit: I've just read Azrael 5's post above, which confirms Derren would have needed a licence not just for a real pistol, but even for an airgun. The gun laws are such that he couldn't have got a licence for a real pistol even if he'd wanted to.

Are you saying that Penn and Teller have performed with real pistols in the UK since the UK law was tightened up? If so, why would Derren go to Jersey? In my opinion, he went to Jersey in order to get more publicity. He wasn't just picking somewhere with less strict gun laws, since, as I've said, he couldn't have got permission for a real pistol in Jersey any more than he could have got it on the UK mainland. If he'd obtained a permit, he could have got even more publicity by showing it to the press, but he hadn't and therefore couldn't do that.

If you recall, DJM, volatile posted "He does NOT use professional actors", with no exceptions mentioned. There was no disclaimer about use of actors in Derren's introduction to the Trick or Treat show I mentioned, and Derren stated in the show that all the people (shown in the background in part of the show) were actors. They could have been described as assistants or other volunteers, but they weren't. Despite their minor role, they were all stated to be actors. If anything, it was the departure of the actors that made things more dramatic (by leaving the subject alone), so almost any bunch of people could have been used. I'm not objecting to that use of actors, just pointing out that Derren sometimes says he has used actors as well as sometimes stating that he has not. On another occasion, Derren used Robbie Williams and needed him to play along, i.e., act as a stooge, which Robbie did, although not particularly well - he seemed almost pleased to see "blood" dripping from his arm!

I've now seen Trick Of The Mind, which was repeated by Channel 4 in the UK on 17th July, so I've watched Helen behaving a bit oddly with a stone. Helen seemed to want to keep away from the box, rather than having fear of the stone. Perhaps the box contained something frightening, such as a snake or large spider.

 

[DJM]

Derren only started using those actors during Trick or Treat, and never on the other shows he had done before that. The way it shows there, they WERE actors, but they were used only when the spectator needed to SIGN THE AGREEMENT. It had nothing to do with any tricks or effects on the show.. because it was during the SIGNING AGREEMENT part, which has NOTHING TO DO WITH MAGIC.

Did he use actors on Trick or Treat, yes. Does it have to do with helping the effects? No, because they were NO EFFECTS there. He even says that this is the only time actors are used, and that the spectator is not part of that.

It's completely different than the one he did with the person switch in London, where he used assistants to help with the effects. Here it was acting, but no effect involved.

I think I repeated enough times for you to understand..


And here's another part about the blanks:

"An illusionist's attempt to trick British television audiences into thinking he had played Russian roulette with a loaded pistol backfired today when police said the weapon had contained only a blank round."


The police only stated that he used BLANKS, not a fake gun. There's a reason for that.

 

[skipjack]

I didn't say the actors were part of a trick, just that actors were used, okay? I made the point simply because volatile had said actors were never hired, with no exceptions. For other shows, which he started with a specific disclaimer stating that no actors or stooges were used at any time, he still used assistants for the specific purpose of acting on at least one occasion (the people switching), which is equivalent to using actors, and in the same show used Robbie Williams as a stooge.

It wasn't the job of the police to explain the trick, but a real pistol would have required a licence to bring it into Jersey, so it wasn't real - it was a prop. It would seem bringing some blank ammunition in didn't require a licence, so I was wrong about that minor aspect, but even a blank is dangerous in a real pistol, so again it couldn't have been a real pistol, since the police said there was no danger.

 

[DJM]

How the heck do you know Robbie was a stooge?! In the show he only found about the effect a few seconds before it started. Were you there?! You filmed the show?!

Robbie wasn't a stooge, because you don't need a stooge to do that effect! We've been telling you that so many times, there's no indication that Robbie knew what he was exactly getting into. Derren even asked him if he knows what would happen, and Robbie said no. So unless you have proof that he's a stooge, please stop crying about it.

Volatile was talking about his friend and how calling the advert in the paper doesn't make her an actress, which is true. Those who were in the background on Trick or Treat were not the same as his friend. They were just there as extras, nothing more than that. Volatile was talking about the spectators they use during effects. You still keep misreading/nitpicking people's posts.

 

[Azrael 5]

I didn't say the actors were part of a trick, just that actors were used, okay? I made the point simply because volatile had said actors were never hired, with no exceptions. For other shows, which he started with a specific disclaimer stating that no actors or stooges were used at any time, he still used assistants for the specific purpose of acting on at least one occasion (the people switching), which is equivalent to using actors, and in the same show used Robbie Williams as a stooge.

It wasn't the job of the police to explain the trick, but a real pistol would have required a licence to bring it into Jersey, so it wasn't real - it was a prop. It would seem bringing some blank ammunition in didn't require a licence, so I was wrong about that minor aspect, but even a blank is dangerous in a real pistol, so again it couldn't have been a real pistol, since the police said there was no danger.

Do you know that Channel Four didn't have a license for a real gun? Do you know it was a prop? I'd like to see some proof now.You have moaned enough and it's time to put up or shut up.

 

[DJM]

By the way, using a prop gun isn't 100% safe either.. Some people have died that way, including Brandon Lee during the shooting (pun intended) of The Crow.

 

[skipjack]

How the heck do you know Robbie was a stooge? . . . Robbie wasn't a stooge, because you don't need a stooge to do that effect!

I didn't say using a stooge is necessary, but Robbie was a stooge because he was assisting with the effect by giving "helpful" answers to questions put by Derren. That is absolute proof that he was a stooge. Precisely when he decided to be a stooge is irrelevant - at best, he was an "instant stooge", but it's more likely he made his decision much earlier. The question to which he answered "No." earlier was not very specific.

Regarding the pistol, Derren would have needed a licence to hold it, as he would even if it had been an airgun. If he'd had a licence, he'd have shown it. You can't just get a licence to possess a pistol because you want one for a show!

The way volatile described the advertisement originally was as a casting request. Only after I had responded to that was the description of the advertisement changed to make it just a request for people to assist Derren in a show! Also, volatile didn't say he was referring just to spectators, but stated actors (which includes extras) were never used at all. No exceptions for specific cases! I didn't claim that volatile's friend was a professional actress, but I suspect Helen held back some of the truth when asked about what had happened.

 

[Azrael 5]

I didn't say using a stooge is necessary, but Robbie was a stooge because he was assisting with the effect by giving "helpful" answers to questions put by Derren. That is absolute proof that he was a stooge. Precisely when he decided to be a stooge is irrelevant - at best, he was an "instant stooge", but it's more likely he made his decision much earlier. The question to which he answered "No." earlier was not very specific.

What helpful answers does Robbie give exactly.I have literally just watched it at this link(should you wish to give times)and didn't see any helpful answers;whatever a "helpful answer is".
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wsfg6KlHSJc

Regarding the pistol, Derren would have needed a licence to hold it, as he would even if it had been an airgun. If he'd had a licence, he'd have shown it. You can't just get a licence to possess a pistol because you want one for a show!

Why would he show the license on TV? The only people who need to see it are the authorities.Penn and Teller don't produce a license on stage evrey night.

Once more I ask-because you seem to be slightly word blind-supply evidence for your claims of stooge and actors and that the gun was a prop.

 

[DJM]

What helpul answers are you talking about?! I've seen a magician does an effect like this on a regular person, and it looked about the same. I watched the video again, and I can't see anything that makes him look a stooge. In fact he looked pretty scared when he saw the blood running.


Like I've said, even if Derren used a prop gun, it could still be dangerous when shot at close range. There are many other things to consider in order to make the illusion 100% safe, using a prop gun doesn't have to be one of them.

Volatile may not have stated that, but it's pretty obvious that's what he meant. The actors used in the beginning of Trick or Treat have nothing to do with the magic and metalism of the show, so in my opinion talking about them is pointless. This discussion should be about the spectators, not the extras that have nothing to do with the effects themselves.

 

[skipjack]

From time 5 minutes and 30 secs, the dialogue, as far as I can tell, is . . .

Derren: How do you feel?

Robbie: (Chuckles.)

Derren: A little queasy? Alright?

Robbie: Yeah . . . a little queasy.

Derren: Pain or quite comfortable?

Robbie: No . . . I mean it's slightly uneasy, yeah.

Derren: Yeah.

Robbie: (I've got) two needles in my arms!

Derren: Yeah and it doesn't hurt . . . If you keep still and don't freak out, it won't hurt at all.

Robbie: Okay.

Derren: Okay?

Robbie: Um.

Those are very helpful answers.

 

[skipjack]

In the very early stages of the Trick Or Treat episode (originally referred to in this thread as episode 3), Derren states, "All of the passengers apart from Anne are actors." I therefore assume we can agree that actors were used in that episode. Their presence/absence is hardly essential, as Anne goes on to play in a poker competition of some kind! Derren doesn't say that no strooges are used in that episode.

I've already explained that in the Trick Of The Mind episode where there is a disclaimer stating that actors and stooges are not used at any time, followed immediately by a series of people switches, assistants are shown carrying a poster or placard with a picture of Derren on it. One of the assistants switches places with Derren and continues the conversation that Derren was having with someone. Thus, that assistant has a speaking role that would almost certainly have been rehearsed. Several such switches are shown (using different people), with the first (speaking) assistant having some resemblance to Derren, and subsequent assistants having successively less resemblance to him. Whether or not the assistants used were full-time professional actors is immaterial; they were clearly acting for the purposes of the show, which makes them actors at that time. It's irrelevant that they weren't acting as mere bystanders, spectators, or subjects of a trick. Derren had stated that no actors would be used at any time. That leaves no room for exceptions.

 

[Azrael 5]

From time 5 minutes and 30 secs, the dialogue, as far as I can tell, is . . .

Derren: How do you feel?

Robbie: (Chuckles.) [Nervous/Unsure laughter]

Derren: A little queasy? Alright?

Robbie: Yeah . . . a little queasy.

Derren: Pain or quite comfortable?

Robbie: No . . . I mean it's slightly uneasy, yeah. [means "No" to pain comment and yeah its uneasy/uncomfortable]

Derren: Yeah.

Robbie: (I've got) two needles in my arms!

Derren: Yeah and it doesn't hurt . . . If you keep still and don't freak out, it won't hurt at all.

Robbie: Okay.

Derren: Okay?

Robbie: Um.

Those are very helpful answers.

State how they are helpful! Don't just repeat them!
I have added bolded comments merely to clarify.From watching that clip Robbie seems in a suggestible state and at times looks quite queasy.
In no way is he "in on it".