Derren Brown Trick or treat

Derren chooses to specify an opening procedure which, even if a valid combination is guessed, is incorrect for a real lock. He says "It's very simple. You get a number in your head - you turn it to that number. . ." etc. For someone who has used a lock of that type, the omission of any mention of the correct procedure for opening a real lock of that type is noticed immediately. It doesn't matter that their deduction that the dialling of the lock's combination is faked may not be absolutely rigorous; what matters is that they do make that deduction very easily, and that their conclusion is correct. There's no need for Derren to use a presentation which makes it obvious to some viewers that the lock has been tampered with.
 
Last edited:
I would like to return to the original topic of this thread. In the first televised Trick or Treat episode, there is no introductory disclaimer by Derren Brown, and he seems to cause someone to fall "asleep" and then transports them to Marrakech, apparently without their knowledge. This caused a lot of controversy; many people pointed out that the victim must have been awake, and therefore was a stooge of some kind (even if not a stooge at all times). That being the case, the effect didn't seem to justify a TV special for Derren, since the effect is easily accomplished using a stooge.
 
Im putting skipjack on ignore.He clearly hasn't got a brain and its pointless derbating with him.
 
Derren chooses to specify an opening procedure which, even if a valid combination is guessed, is incorrect for a real lock. He says "It's very simple. You get a number in your head - you turn it to that number. . ." etc. For someone who has used a lock of that type, the omission of any mention of the correct procedure for opening a real lock of that type is noticed immediately.
As I said before,Im sure,no-one in the audience is going to think anything other than she has a lock to which she opens! What do you think the likelihood of someone in teh audience thinking "hang on a minute that X type lock doesn't open that way..what the eff!" No ,they buy into the routine,the performance.Same way no-on ever questions why Derren asks you to write your thoughts on a clipboard before revealing your picture!
I suppose you think a stationary expert sits in the audience thinking"Hang on thats not a regular WHSmith clipboard,they don't have that type of clip"
It doesn't matter that their deduction that the dialling of the lock's combination is faked may not be absolutely rigorous; what matters is that they do make that deduction very easily, and that their conclusion is correct. There's no need for Derren to use a presentation which makes it obvious to some viewers that the lock has been tampered with.
Do they? Show me anywhere online(there are plenty of Derren related posts on the internet)where anyone mentions a trick padlock-magicians aside.
Which viewers? I have never heard anyone(and I saw that tour from which that trick came)even suspect a tampered lock.Nor do they suspect how they came to pick a particular word in a newspaper.
With the right presentation and misdirection even the most obvious method isn't suspected.

On to your comments about Marrakech.The Daily Mirror(unbeknownst to Derren and his crew)tailed him and the film crew all the way to Marrekesch hoping to expose the stunt as a sham.Eventually they revealed themselves to Derren as they realsied it wasn't a sham.

Links here.Even the guiy from the episode's MySpace(I don't have it so cannot say what is written)

Derren explaining how the Daily Mirror followed him to Marrakesh.

http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/news

The rather sparse ‘news items’

http://www.mirror.co.uk/showbiz/late...name_page.html


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstor...name_page.html

Richard Critchlow’s Myspace!!!:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...endid=62670093


How many more times do I have to PWN you?!
Can't think of anything easier..except maybe pi**ing orange soda! :D
 
I've already said that type of lock isn't common in the UK. Having used such a lock doesn't imply that the owner would be keen to put his insights on the internet merely because he spots a flaw in Derren's show!

My point was that Derren didn't need to have that flaw in his presentation. He could have specified the correct procedure.

By the way, it was suggested earlier that $250 or £140 was not expensive for a trick lock. A simple Google search reveals that a real padlock that can be opened with a key or with a wireless remote control is available priced at just $17. Draw your own conclusions, but mine would be that $250 is quite expensive for a trick lock that the magician somehow controls. Of course, anyone who owns one of those real, remote-controlled padlocks would also not be baffled by Derren's effect, but there's not anything Derren can do about that.

It doesn't matter whether the student who seemed to be asleep (or in a trance) went to Marrakech or not. My point is that he was awake. Derren himself has admitted that he doesn't actually use hypnosis for his shows. He might have used suggestion, but that wouldn't have caused the student to be asleep or in a trance. Hence the student was awake and "playing along" for some reason.

By the way, two of your links don't seem to work. Richard (the subject) does seem to have a myspace page, but as far as I can tell he doesn't comment in it about the hypnosis issue.

I don't understand your point about a clipboard. In what show did Derren ask someone to write their thoughts on a clipboard and then reveal their picture? Did they also use a clipboard when drawing their picture? Doesn't any clipboard allow others to see what is being written or drawn? In addition, a lower sheet will receive impressions of what was written or drawn on the top sheet, although it's not clear why one would need to exploit that for a magic trick.
 
Last edited:
Of course he was awake, this kind of hypnosis doesn't exist and you can't make anyone fall asleep for so many hours this way. But to say he is some kind of stooge or to hint that the show might be fake, is like saying that the spectators at the hypnosis stage shows are stooges for making themselves seem like they are naked, barking like a dog, or running around like crazy. It's like saying that the stage hypnotist is a fraud for making it seem like it's real. But it's not like that, because hypnosis is an illusion, Derren is a magician who makes people do things without actually telling them to do so. That's what it's all about.

I have no idea what your point is.. so that person was awake, so what? Who cares? It's a ******* TV show for God's sake.

I think you should just stop watching Derren's shows, maybe The Teletubbies is a better choice for you.
 
Last edited:
I've already said that type of lock isn't common in the UK. Having used such a lock doesn't imply that the owner would be keen to put his insights on the internet merely because he spots a flaw in Derren's show!
As I said search the internet,find me one non magician related post that states it was a trick lock.The internet is full of people wanting to reveal secrets should be easy for you.
It isnt common in the UK yet Derren specially sought one when a magic prop does the same?!
My point was that Derren didn't need to have that flaw in his presentation. He could have specified the correct procedure.

It wasn't a flaw.The girl had messed with it for most of the show and was obviously familiar with it.It's like people who in pick holes in action films("the F35 jet can't fire missiles like in Die Hard")Its a magic show-entertainment-not supposed to be factual!

By the way, it was suggested earlier that $250 or £140 was not expensive for a trick lock. A simple Google search reveals that a real padlock that can be opened with a key or with a wireless remote control is available priced at just $17. Draw your own conclusions, but mine would be that $250 is quite expensive for a trick lock that the magician somehow controls.
A quick google also reveals the remote controlled padlock isn't a combination lock so what use would buying one be?!


I don't understand your point about a clipboard. In what show did Derren ask someone to write their thoughts on a clipboard and then reveal their picture? Did they also use a clipboard when drawing their picture? Doesn't any clipboard allow others to see what is being written or drawn? In addition, a lower sheet will receive impressions of what was written or drawn on the top sheet, although it's not clear why one would need to exploit that for a magic trick.

The Gathering.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QwYXkWLIhTM
 
Richard was awake and Richard was not hypnotized, since Derren has admitted he didn't use hypnosis. Hence Richard was faking being asleep. The whole point of the show vanishes once it's known that Richard was faking being asleep. Richard acted for a while - that's no big deal.

In Russian Roulette, the law prohibited Derren from firing a real pistol, so that effect was faked as well. However, Derren could have had it filmed elsewhere in Europe where a real pistol could be used. In that way, you wouldn't know for certain, even before the show starts, that the pistol is fake (or disabled).

Evidently, you're wrong about what the internet is full of. There are few forums or blogs where the lock effect is even described (other than by magicians), let alone where any explanations are considered.

We don't know that the spectator messed with the lock for most of the show. She had been told to try to find the combination during the interval. We have no information about what she did or when other than her confirmation that she had unsuccessfully tried to find the combination. Attempting to find the combination wouldn't have given her any information at all about how to dial the combination properly. Hence she still didn't know the procedure to use when she returned to the stage. As far as we can tell, she simply followed Derren's instructions, which didn't give the correct procedure. There is no reason why Derren couldn't have given the correct procedure.

It's irrelevant that the $17 lock was not a combination lock. My point was about its price, not it's suitability for the effect. If a genuinely remote controlled padlock can be on sale for $17, another padlock sold as a prop (which the magician somehow controls) is obviously rather expensive at $250.
 
Richard was awake and Richard was not hypnotized, since Derren has admitted he didn't use hypnosis. Hence Richard was faking being asleep. The whole point of the show vanishes once it's known that Richard was faking being asleep. Richard acted for a while - that's no big deal.

Any proof of this?

In Russian Roulette, the law prohibited Derren from firing a real pistol, so that effect was faked as well. However, Derren could have had it filmed elsewhere in Europe where a real pistol could be used. In that way, you wouldn't know for certain, even before the show starts, that the pistol is fake (or disabled).
.Can you prove it wasn't a real pistol? Maybe you had one of those as well ..? It was filmed out of the UK due to gun laws.
I think the issue was that it wasn't live rounds;so once again you speak without knowledge.Derren has never stated wether they were live rounds or not.
Also let's say the bullets were blank.Would you fancy shooting yourself in the head with a blank round?
Evidently, you're wrong about what the internet is full of. There are few forums or blogs where the lock effect is even described (other than by magicians), let alone where any explanations are considered.
I don't understand this part.Just to clarify I meant the internet is full of people eager to reveal secrets-not that the lock secret had been posted.Maybe you have made a grammatical error,if not link to where it is revealed.

We don't know that the spectator messed with the lock for most of the show. She had been told to try to find the combination during the interval. We have no information about what she did or when other than her confirmation that she had unsuccessfully tried to find the combination. Attempting to find the combination wouldn't have given her any information at all about how to dial the combination properly. Hence she still didn't know the procedure to use when she returned to the stage. As far as we can tell, she simply followed Derren's instructions, which didn't give the correct procedure. There is no reason why Derren couldn't have given the correct procedure.

So you think she tested the lock during the interval and that was all? It's irrelevant anyway,she seemed to be confident that she was inputting the numbers correctly as far as she was concerned at the end.No hesitation,no request for explanation.Also any explanation of working the lock at that point would have kiled the tension and flow of the effect.


It's irrelevant that the $17 lock was not a combination lock. My point was about its price, not it's suitability for the effect. If a genuinely remote controlled padlock can be on sale for $17, another padlock sold as a prop (which the magician somehow controls) is obviously rather expensive at $250.

A clipboard costs about £4-5; a magicians prop of the same apearance costs about £800.They sell very well.So why don't magicians just pay a fiver?

Don't post again until you can bring evidence for your silly schoolboy trolling.:rolleyes:
 
You posted "Any proof of this?" See http://www.derrenbrowninfo.co.uk/magicweek_interview.php, which has already been quoted in page 2 of this thread.

The Jersey police were interviewed regarding the gun laws there. The results were widely reported. Derren didn't have permission for a real pistol. The issue certainly wasn't just the use of live rounds. The police definitely confirmed that there was no danger at all in what Derren did. That implies no live rounds and no blanks either. The gun laws for Jersey and the UK are very tight indeed and very different from the gun laws elsewhere in Europe.

Derren gave the incorrect instructions for the lock twice, so it's hardly surpising that she followed them. If she hadn't possessed that type of lock before, she wouldn't have known any better. Derren could easily have given the correct instructions at the start. He has quite adequate communication skills to give the correct instructions without ruining the tension and flow.

The fact that a $17 remote-controlled padlock exists doesn't imply anything about the appropriate cost for a clipboard prop. My point stands that if a padlock operated by key or by a remote control can sell for $17 (a price which anyone can confirm using Google), a padlock operated by a combination or remote control is obviously rather expensive at $250.
 
Like I've already said a few times before, Derren does use a form of hypnosis. He just doesn't like to use that name, because he doesn't believe real hypnosis exists in the first place. He even says that in the article you posted:

"There's three sides to that. One, I'm not using formal hypnosis anyway. Two I don't want to be seen as a Hypnotist because there are hypnotists and we know what they are. I think it's important to be seen as yourself for what you do and not be too easily labelled. And three there are all sorts of problems if you're known as a hypnotist in terms of getting gigs and all sorts of legal issues. I use it covertly, but at that point it ceases to be hypnosis, it becomes… suggestion, or waking hypnosis, or something that isn't strictly speaking hypnosis per se."

Derren was a stage hypnotist back in the day, he knows exactly what it's all about. On the show he uses a form of hypnosis that can been seen on stage shows, the kind that you make people do something that he wouldn't normally do. Some like to call it hypnosis, some like to call it suggestion, some like to call it role playing. Whatever it is, it's an ILLUSION.. and Derren is an illusionist. At least he's being fair with us about what he does. As you can see he doesn't like those who do it for real and take it seriously. He's doing it for entertainment and honest about the meaning. Here's what he said about The Heist:


Is it posible to get someone to obey ANy order? Are they hypnotized?

"You have to realise that hypnosis doesn't exist: it just works on people's natural suggestibility, their expectations and capacity to unconsciously role play. You can't make someone do anything they don't want to do."
"Clearly if a hypnotist could make someone steal £100k just by telling them to, the world would be a different place, and I suspect that hypnotists wouldn't bother doing shows in pubs or dodgy Spanish holiday resorts. So the challenge of the show is to insiduously massage these people to the point that they will make the decision themselves to hold up an armoured security van and point a gun at the guard, but without ever telling them to do so."


This is what he did on The Heist, this is what he did on Trick or Treat and anywhere else.. Was the dude pretening to be asleep? Yes. Does it make the show a fraud? NO, because it's a ****** TV show and created to amuse the people at home. If you don't like this kind of magic, then DON'T WATCH IT.

Now read the parts above a few times, because I'm ony repeating myself every other post. It's not that complicated to understand.


The Jersey police were interviewed regarding the gun laws there. The results were widely reported. Derren didn't have permission for a real pistol. The issue certainly wasn't just the use of live rounds. The police definitely confirmed that there was no danger at all in what Derren did. That implies no live rounds and no blanks either. The gun laws for Jersey and the UK are very tight indeed and very different from the gun laws elsewhere in Europe.

The reason the police said there was no danger is probably that Derren told them it was only a trick and that nothing could get wrong. Russian Roullete is a very known mentalism effect and can be completely safe when using a real gun. Just like the police says nothing to Penn and Teller for using a real gun to do the Bullet Catch, they don't say anything to Derren or any other magician who does these kinds of illusions.

This is what the police said:

"We knew before this stunt took place that there was no risk of serious injury to anybody and we discussed this with Channel Four in some detail before it took place," Jersey's Deputy Chief of Police Lenny Harper told Reuters."

There's no mention of fake guns, and there's no reason to use one. There are other ways to make it completely safe.

Now read that part above a few times, so that I won't need to repeat it every other post.
 
Now that DJM is PWNAGE!! :D

Penn and Teller certainly use guns every night in their Vegas stage act,don't see Vegas police making a statement every day that no one is in any danger.
skipjack I read that interview you linked,Russian roulette hadn't even taken part at that time so where is this proof?
Derren has always skirted the issue of live ammunition by saying "legally he cannot say" due to Jersey Police's statement.
The gun was never,ever,stated to be fake.A gun is harmless on it's own.

skipjack said:
The fact that a $17 remote-controlled padlock exists doesn't imply anything about the appropriate cost for a clipboard prop. My point stands that if a padlock operated by key or by a remote control can sell for $17 (a price which anyone can confirm using Google), a padlock operated by a combination or remote control is obviously rather expensive at $250.

Where is this remote control magic prop padlock? So it's rather expensive? That's what magicians do.the Mother of all booktest cost somewhere in region of £500 whereas you can buy a normal paerback book and perform it.So why spend £500?
Performers choice.
So what if there is a remote control padlock? Derren obviously didn't want one! His choice.
Kindly shut up about instructions to the girl,she opened the lock the whole audience gave him a standing ovation;and you still haven't given me a link where anyone online has suspected the lock.
 
Anyone can read the law books. You need permission (which Derren didn't have and couldn't have got without being, say, a police officer) for a real pistol, whether it is loaded or not, and whether you're on the UK mainland or in Jersey. That is the law; it has nothing to do with what Lenny Harper told Reuters. The problem doesn't arise in the various countries with less strict gun laws. If Derren could legally have had a real pistol, the question of what types of ammunition he could legally use would not have arisen. The question of danger didn't arise simply because the pistol wasn't real and real ammunition wasn't used.
 
Skippy - magicians say they are doing something, and then they do something else. That is how magic shows work!

Are you cross that other magicians say they're really sawing a woman in half, when it's actually just a trick? What ever is your issue here?
 
DJM, Derren clearly stated he didn't want to be seen as a stage hypnotist, and would restrict himself to use of suggestion, which is not formal hypnotism, per se. He didn't just forget that and use what amounted to stage hypnosis in a special booth rather than on an actual stage. The entire hypnosis business in the first Trick or Treat episode was obviously totally fake in the sense that Richard had already decided to play along with whatever occurred before he entered the booth. Even if Derren had changed his mind and decided to use stage hypnotism methodology on this one occasion, he couldn't have achieved the overall effect that way.
 
I realize that magicians may lie during their act, volatile. What I am saying is that merely simulating a hypnosis act is quite straightforward and didn't really merit a TV series. It's on a par with just hiring professional actors to do all the work. In contrast, replaying a video of traditional magic sometimes makes one appreciate it more, since you see better how skilful it was.
 
I realize that magicians may lie during their act, volatile. What I am saying is that merely simulating a hypnosis act is quite straightforward and didn't really merit a TV series. It's on a par with just hiring professional actors to do all the work. In contrast, replaying a video of traditional magic sometimes makes one appreciate it more, since you see better how skilful it was.

What do you mean by "may lie"? They all lie! Magicians earn their livings, to a man, by lying.

He does NOT hire professional actors, nor seek out stooges. I have already confirmed this to you inasmuch as my friend was on his show, who resolutely is not an actor.

I don't get why you're so against Derren! Yes, he lies. Yes, he often doesn't perform his effects how he says he does. But ALL magicians do this. Why the ire against DB specifically? Or do you just hate magic shows?
 
Magicians do not necessarily lie. I've seen several performances on TV during which the magician didn't speak a word.

In one of the Trick or Treat episodes, Derren stated during the episode, that he was using a whole bunch of actors. I am not against Derren, and I didn't say I was.
 
Okay, I haven't finished reading this thread, but it was becoming really hard work.

I have a question for Skipjack, and it is this...

What's your point? Do you have an agenda? Are you saying that Derren is a fraud? or that we shouldn't be amazed by what he does, however he does it? (Yes, I realise that when you know how these things are done, the whole thing becomes mundane, but I don't and at least a little, I cherish my ignorance.)

If you don't like him, or his methods, or if you're smart enough to see straight through the tricks, there is a simple solution; don’t watch him!

By far the majority of Derrens target audience are not schooled in the art of legerdemain*, and are consistently impressed with what he does. I'm not daft enough to believe that he does things how he says does them, but I (and I think most of his audience) don't care.

You seem to have some problem with him or his methods, and I'd be interested to know what it is?



(*Any excuse to use the word, it's one of my favourites)


(edited to add - Azrael - love your sig, makes me smile every time)
 
Last edited:
Magicians do not necessarily lie. I've seen several performances on TV during which the magician didn't speak a word.

Whatever it was these magicians looked like they did - say, for sake of illustration they sawed a woman in half - they did something else. They didn't have to say anything verbally. Magic doesn't really exist, thus magicians lie. But that doesn't matter. Or at least, it doesn't matter to anyone but you!
 

Back
Top Bottom