Derren Brown Trick or treat

[Bob Klase]

Whether or not the assistants used were full-time professional actors is immaterial; they were clearly acting for the purposes of the show, which makes them actors at that time. It's irrelevant that they weren't acting as mere bystanders, spectators, or subjects of a trick. Derren had stated that no actors would be used at any time. That leaves no room for exceptions.

From one dictionary:

1. A theatrical performer.

So the fact that someone 'acts' does not necessarily make them an 'actor'.

But, from the same dictionary:

2. One who takes part; a participant:

So, anyone who is on the show at all is "taking part" and is "a participant". Which means that if any person is on the show they are then an actor. Naturally that includes Darren himself.

By applying selective definitions to words you make make the phrase mean a lot of things. But most reasonable, intelligent people interpret the words/phase in context of the meaning intended and don't nitpick based on the definition they like.

I think it's fairly obvious to most viewers what is meant by saying that no actors are used. You choose to treat it as a legal contract and spend an excessive amount of time looking for meaningless loopholes. Virtually everyone else realizes that it's a TV show and not a legal contract.

 

[tmackean]

This clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXGQuj8fPA0

...is the raw footage from the beginning of another episode of Trick or Treat. Like the bus opener, the driver is an actor. The participant, however, is very clearly NOT 'in on it', 'playing around' or 'acting'.

He's scared out of his mind. It's edgy viewing. He calls the police - it all goes a little further than the production team wanted.

And this wasn't even the trick.

This doesn't preclude him being an 'Instant Stooge' when the trick goes down, of course, but we can at least acknowledge the gulf between actors performing scripts and suggestivle members of the public who may decide to play along spontaneously.

 

[Big Les]

By the way, using a prop gun isn't 100% safe either.. Some people have died that way, including Brandon Lee during the shooting (pun intended) of The Crow.

Yes, that was an odd one. The stuntman wasn't supposed to be aiming directly at Lee, and how a fake bullet got lodged in the barrel and was then propelled at him by a blank, I'll never know. Absolutely no evidence for anything CTish, but it really is a bizarre death.

 

[skipjack]

It's quite clear that "no actors or stooges" "at any time" leaves no room for exceptions. That's because of the nature of the disclaimer, not some unusual interpretation of a particular word, such as "actors". The context is that Derren has just stated the methods he will use in the show (such as misdirection and suggestion), so it's clear that he's contrasting those with any use of actors. A demonstration of misdirection is okay, provided that it's achieved without using an actor to do the misdirecting.

To put it simply: Derren has issued his disclaimer, so I expect to see what Derren can do, not what an actor (or set of actors) can do.

 

[DJM]

From time 5 minutes and 30 secs, the dialogue, as far as I can tell, is . . .

Derren: How do you feel?

Robbie: (Chuckles.)

Derren: A little queasy? Alright?

Robbie: Yeah . . . a little queasy.

Derren: Pain or quite comfortable?

Robbie: No . . . I mean it's slightly uneasy, yeah.

Derren: Yeah.

Robbie: (I've got) two needles in my arms!

Derren: Yeah and it doesn't hurt . . . If you keep still and don't freak out, it won't hurt at all.

Robbie: Okay.

Derren: Okay?

Robbie: Um.

Those are very helpful answers.

That's the whole point of the effect!!! To make the spectator not feel pain, and make it seem for him that he's in some kind of trance. Those questions were to make sure the audience knows nothing hurts and to make Robbie more comfortable about everything. You except Derren to keep him standing there like that without asking anything?!

How's the helpful answers?! Derren asked and Robbie answered honsestly. The other magician who did that effect asked the same stuff, this is part of the presenation. 99% of your posts just don't make any sense anymore, not that they ever did.

About the actors/stooges, you seem to be the only person in the world who can't tell the different between someone who helps the effect, and someone who should be called an actor. The Robbie Williams effect is an example that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Bob Klase and Pmckean gave good examples what the difference is, hopefully it will finally get to your head.

 

[skipjack]

What do you mean by "raw footage", pmckean? He seems to get through to the police instantly, i.e., without sufficient delay for the police to be given his telephone number, and they don't seem to ask who he is. Also, isn't it the case that there was no disclaimer in that episode either?

Regarding the illusion involving Robbie Williams, it's clear that Robbie knew in advance that some kind of dramatic illusion would be filmed, even if he didn't know the exact nature of it. He helpfully didn't reply along the lines of "Of course I'm not in pain; I'd know if those needles were really in my arm." It's very much what he didn't say that helped the illusion, rather than what he did say.

 

[DJM]

But the whole point of the effect is that he won't feel the pain!! Derren made it seem like he's putting him in some kind of trance by letting him sing the song and making everything seems like it will be alright and not painful. There's no reason for Robbie to suspect those needles were not in his arm, just like there's no reason for other people to suspect it if Derren did it on them.

How do you know what line he really wanted to say? Are you inside his head? do you know if he was nervous or not? Are you like the movie Being John Malkovich and know exactly what Robbie thinks about at every given moment?

No, you are just some layman who knows almost nothing about magic and likes to complain about everything that you possibly can.

 

[Azrael 5]

Do you know skpjack if I were having this argument with you in a pub I would have asked you to step outside by now.
You are clearly a stupid individual who just repeats,ad infinitum ,nonsense.

The actors and stooges statement relates to the participants as anyone with a brain clearly knows.Do documentaries have a similiar disclaimer? No.But because Derren's effects provoke such incredible reactions and are hard to believe, people will assume participants are stooges or actors paid to make his tricks work.

Now if you cannot get this fact through your blinkered head then I pity you.

 

[skipjack]

Are you suggesting that Robbie Williams wasn't paid, Azrael 5? What do you think would have been done if he'd said "I've got two needles stuck to my arms!" instead of "I've got two needles in my arms!" or spoilt the illusion in any other way?

The effect was entertaining, but also amusing, since almost everyone (and definitely Robbie himself) would have realized that the needles were not really in his arm. It was all quite lightweight in comparison with the special effects shown in many movies.

 

[DJM]

You are wrong again, skipjack. This effect has been done on regular people and scared the ***** out of them.. the whole point is to make it seem real, and Derren did a great job on that by choosing a scary location and using suggestion.

To say almost everyone could tell that this trick is fake is just ignorant, and insults the art of magic.

 

[skipjack]

The actors and stooges statement relates to the participants as anyone with a brain clearly knows.

That's my point - the various participants that Derren uses in the show. I thought you wanted to exclude certain participants who didn't appear to be "in on the trick".

The disclaimer could easily have been worded differently, so as to allow the use of actors if Derren says they are actors at the time. Of course, the people switching won't work unless the subject is unaware of the involvement of an actor. Any disclaimer may be true for the TV viewer, but isn't true at the time for the subject of that demonstration of misdirection.

 

[DJM]

What the hell are you talking about, the disclaimer is very simple, true and to the point. You are the only person that I've heard having a problem with the disclaimer, as everyone knows what Derren meant there. Stop being so annoying.

 

[Bob Klase]

It's quite clear that "no actors or stooges" "at any time" leaves no room for exceptions.

In your mind. Everyone else understands what he's saying.

That's because of the nature of the disclaimer, not some unusual interpretation of a particular word, such as "actors".

Obviously that's wrong since your complaint is based on your understand of all the words.

To put it simply: Derren has issued his disclaimer, so I expect to see what Derren can do, not what an actor (or set of actors) can do.

So why don't you just stop watching him then? Or are you planning to sue him for misleading you?

 

[Bob Klase]

The disclaimer could easily have been worded differently, so as to allow the use of actors if Derren says they are actors at the time./QUOTE]

The disclaimer could also have been 40 pages long to ensure that idiots wouldn't spent their life looking for loopholes and complaints. Then they could have spent the first 3/4 of the show reading it.

Obviously Darren and the producers made the intelligent decision and made a short disclaimer which 99.9% of the viewing audience understands and accepts. The other 0.1% really aren't important enough for them to worry about.

 

[skipjack]

This effect has been done on regular people and scared the ***** out of them.

Very possibly, but I don't think that it would scare many of the TV audience. Robbie didn't say he was scared. He had agreed to take part in a stunt, after all. He felt no pain, so why should he be scared? His hesitant manner of reply suggested that he didn't really want to lie, but didn't want to spoil the effect either. In the end, he did lie. If there had been no cameras present, and no pre-agreement to take part in a stunt, he would have behaved differently.

 

[DJM]

He still felt scared because Derren told him that if he stops singing then the pain could be back.. so he tries to keep blocking the pain by going on with what Derren told him. That's part of the suggestion that Derren brought to the effect. Stop thinking you know it all because obviously you don't.

The disclaimer could also have been 40 pages long to ensure that idiots wouldn't spent their life looking for loopholes and complaints. Then they could have spent the first 3/4 of the show reading it.

Obviously Darren and the producers made the intelligent decision and made a short disclaimer which 99.9% of the viewing audience understands and accepts. The other 0.1% really aren't important enough for them to worry about.

I couldn't say it better, too bad Jack doesn't understand this.

 

[skipjack]

The disclaimer could also have been 40 pages long . . . 99.9% of the viewing audience understands . . .

Giving ridiculous extremes like that is a poor form of argument. There are plenty of literal-minded people who would not have formed the complex interpretation you are trying to support.

 

[DJM]

Yes, it's so complex that even my 8 year old cousin didn't see anything wrong with the disclaimer.

Just because you like to nitpick, doesn't mean others do the same.

 

[Azrael 5]

Are we allowed to swear on here? Because skipjack makes me want to.

skipjack what proof do you have that:

A)Robbie Willaims was lying
b)he was palying along
c)he was paid
d) If cameras weren't there he would act differently.

In Trick of The Mind also,were Stephen Fry playing along when Derren performed an effect on him,Simon Pegg also? Stephen Merchant? Matt Lucas?
In Mind Control series Derren stuck a needle into the back of a students hand without anesthetic.Stooge? Actor? Playing along?

You are officially boring skipjack.Go play on a woo woo forum somewhere.

 

[skipjack]

He still felt scared because Derren told him that if he stops singing then the pain could be back.. so he tries to keep blocking the pain by going on with what Derren told him.

That's completely wrong. Robbie didn't say he felt scared and Derren did not tell him that if he stopped singing the pain could be back. In fact, Robbie's original singing was done with his eyes closed and before he had seen the needles. After Robbie had seen the needles, Derren said "If you keep still and don't freak out, it won't hurt at all." When Robbie started to overdo his part a bit later, Derren asked him to start singing again. Robbie did sing again, but couldn't help giggling. He clearly understood perfectly well what was really being done. The ending is revealing. Listen carefully to Robbie's comments when asked about how he had felt. He liked it!