Moderated Dowsing By Edge

[RemieV]

Jeff has sent Mr. Guska the following e-mail:

Mr. Guska,

I've been following your progress on the challenge, and it is my determination that it is taking far too long and protocol negotiations are unlikely to reach a mutually satisfactory conclusion any time soon. Because of this, I am terminating your application.

I do appreciate your interest in the challenge and the amount of time you've spent on it, but the JREF can't afford to devote any more resources to your claim.

Should you wish, you can reapply again in one year, by which time you may have perfected your protocol enough so that negotiations will be much simpler.


Jeff Wagg
General Manager
James Randi Educational Foundation

 

[RemieV]

Mr. Guska,

I know my change of heart regarding your application and protocol negotiations may have seemed sudden. It was my opinion that your protocol was too complex and demanded too many things which seem ridiculous for someone who claims to truly have an ability.

The turning point was the moment you mentioned using lime, and I thought to myself, "Isn't that caustic?"

http://www.lime.org/FactSafety12403.pdf

http://www.limebase.co.uk/safety.htm

http://www.virginiadot.org/business/resources/bu-mat-AppendDAP.pdf

http://www.mikewye.co.uk/limesafetydatatech.htm

http://www.irishlime.com/hydrated.html

I am not offering an opportunity to change your request and continue to negotiate the protocol, just trying to explain why I felt this one was a hopeless cause.

Regards,

Remie

 

[edge]

Ya lime in a plastic container in a plastic bags is so dangerous.
It might even explode.
I use it in my garden all the time and for potted plants.
Lets see you wouldn't want to put it in your eyes of course you wouldn't want to put gasoline in them either.


This is just a cop out.
We could have used limestone aggregate.

I'll find some other way to prove it.

The dummies were your problem anyway.
I wanted empties, with all of them placed in a bucket, which would have worked.

They are running scared.

 

[RemieV]

*sigh*

Mr. Guska, I said that was when I began to have misgivings. It was not the reason for your application termination, which is an inability to negotiate a protocol because of your absolute lack of clarity.

Regards,

Remie

 

[EHocking]

....

I'll find some other way to prove it.

The dummies were your problem anyway.
I wanted empties, with all of them placed in a bucket, which would have worked.

They are running scared.

edge - all is not lost. We've come this far, why not enlist help from the posters here that you can trust, and come up with a workable protocol and apply with someone else?

Here's one in California, for starters: http://www.iigwest.com/challenge.html

Knock this one on the head, get the publicity and JREF should be obliged to test you for the Million. Also, they'll already have a protocol to work with.

 

[EHocking]

Jeff has sent Mr. Guska the following e-mail:

Mr. Guska,

I've been following your progress on the challenge, and it is my determination that it is taking far too long and protocol negotiations are unlikely to reach a mutually satisfactory conclusion any time soon. Because of this, I am terminating your application.

I do appreciate your interest in the challenge and the amount of time you've spent on it, but the JREF can't afford to devote any more resources to your claim.

Should you wish, you can reapply again in one year, by which time you may have perfected your protocol enough so that negotiations will be much simpler.


Jeff Wagg
General Manager
James Randi Educational Foundation

RemieV, would we be able to get Jeff to reconsider this if a few of us worked offline with edge to hammer out a workable protocol that he is completely happy with and then have him submit a *finalised* protocol to JREF?

He still has until 2008 before his application lapses, and I think there are enough intelligent and interested posters here to help him work out a presentable, coherent protocol to JREF.

Perhaps if JREF could give edge a final deadline for a comprehensive protocol it would help focus his efforts with us?

 

[edge]

Mr. Guska, I said that was when I began to have misgivings. It was not the reason for your application termination, which is an inability to negotiate a protocol because of your absolute lack of clarity.

Regards,

Remie

Well lets see, you got it till the dummies in the empty containers, and then there's the time issue. These were the only two things left.
If you are reading in here you know now that Spectator has it written up to accommodate the time issue.
As I stated before several pages back before you mentioned sand, that rubber or plastic will do for a dummy target.
And before you mentioned sand, I said place a 5-gallon plastic bucket on the spot that I choose to have the containers placed on, this is to put the smaller containers into and then seal them with the lid so I can’t see the smaller container.
The wind would have no effect unless it was gusting at 60 MPH or higher.
I gave you several solutions but you want to use sand, which may cause false readings.

SezMe and I had no problems with that issue, when he tested me on Coffee Creek.
If lime is an issue I can think of several things that would work besides lime.
Flour, sugar, Rit dye packets, but you can’t use sand or lead or iron or aluminum, and or titanium- etcetera.

Spectators’ version of a protocol includes what I need that’s why I choose his, no offence to you EHocking, SezMe.
Here is Spectators protocol, which addresses the time issue,

I don't know statistics, so I don't know if 4 out of 5 will be an acceptable test result for the JREF. If you're confident you can get 5 out of 5, go for that; or see if they'll accept 4 out of 5 as passing.Here's the protocol. See if you think it will work, and if it looks ok, cut and paste it and try it on JREF.PROTOCOL FOR DOWSING TESTThe claim: The dowser can successfully detect the presence of a concealed target consisting of 5 ounces of silver 4 times in 5 runs of ten attempts each, with a one-in-ten possibility of identifying the target by chance alone in each of the five runs.Material required:1 target, 5 oz. silver1 5-lb bag of lime10 11-ounce plastic coffee containers numbered 1-10ScaleProcedure:The dowser will attempt to locate the target hidden inside one of the containers. There will be five runs of ten containers each, numbered 1-10. In each run, the target will be present in one container only, and the other nine containers will be stabilized by eight ounces of lime.The containers will be prepared this way: In nine of the containers for each trial there will be eight ounces of lime. These are the dummy containers. In the remaining container there will be three ounces of lime plus the five-ounce target. The target container will be determined by a random process. An individual we will call the randomizer will prepare the containers for each run; the dowser will have a representative who will verify that the container with the target actually does contain the target. This will be done by the randomizer’s preparing five lists, consisting of numbers from 1-10. When the target container has been selected and prepared the randomizer will mark a T in the space opposite that number on the list; the dowser’s representative will initial the sheet to show that it is correct. At no time will the randomizer or the dowser’s representative be in verbal, electronic, or visual communication with the dowser; if the dowser somehow does come into contact with the randomizer or the representative, that run will be declared null and void.Before the test begins, the dowser will locate a specific spot on which all the containers will be placed, one at a time, for his dowsing test. The scale will be set up so that the dowser can attach his dowsing rod to it directly over the spot where the containers will be placed.The dowser will then move away to a waiting area and will be out of sight of the testing area at the beginning of each trial. The dowser will witness the recording of the dowser's readings by initialing each numbered list after the run of ten is complete.The randomizer will choose one of the containers in which to place the target for each run of ten. The randomizer will prepare the containers and mark the list; the dowser’s second representative will initial the list to signify that it is complete. The randomizer will signal (perhaps by blowing a whistle in a particular pattern: long-short-long, for example) the placement team when the containers are ready. The randomizer and second dowser’s representative will leave the area, and the placement team will then come to the preparation area and will one by one move the containers to the test spot for the dowsing attempt. The placement team will not know which container conceals the target. The placement team will take each container to the test site, place it on the test spot the dowser has located, and signal the dowser. Then the placement team will leave before the dowser arrives with his observer and the JREF observer(s).The dowser will use his dowsing rod on each container and will say whether the container does or does not contain the silver target.When the dowser has stated this, the observer will record his opinion on a sheet numbered 1-10. If the dowser says the target is present, the number corresponding to the container will be marked T. If not, the number will be marked 0. There can be only one T in each run of ten containers. Both the observer and the dowser will initial the finished test sheet after each run of ten.The process will be repeated five times, with the target randomly placed in a container for each time and with each container placed on the same spot for each dowsing attempt. After each container is removed, the placement team will wait a minimum of three minutes before placing the next container. After each run of ten dowsing attempts, the dowser will have a rest period of ten minutes.At the end of all 5 runs (50 dowsing trials), all participants will compare the observers' list with T marked to show which containers the dowser believes hold the target and the randomizer's record of which containers actually held the target. Until that time, the randomizer and dowser's representative will not communicate with the dowser and the JREF observer in any way.To succeed, the dowser will have to correctly identify the target container four out of five times. If the dowser correctly identifies the target container three out of five times or less, that will be a failure.
__________________Mm, I like your conspiracy theory. Your facts are so...twisted. Your drivel so mindless.

All you have to do is remove the lime and replace it with flour; if bigger containers are needed to accommodate the weight and size of the dummies then I will get bigger plastic coffee containers, the 39-ounce version.

My time line is still September or October to actually have you test me.

SezMe, or myself might provide target.
Now can we get pass this part, RemieV?

I have more to work out, like place and the time.
SezMe may have more input on this too, if we do the
preliminary up here at Coffee creek.

Which then the JREF, will make him and a person of his
choosing your representatives to run the preliminary
on me. That’s something you'll have to discuss with
him.

I would like to do the final there too, at which point James can come and see.
I have to work out the rental of the cabins at the resort with the owner and make sure that I can dredge there which will pay for the JREF stay there.

I think that this is pretty clear.
If you think you have a headache you should try mine.

I have a year I thought, according to your rules?

 

[edge]

edge - all is not lost. We've come this far, why not enlist help from the posters here that you can trust, and come up with a workable protocol and apply with someone else?

Here's one in California, for starters: http://www.iigwest.com/challenge.html

Knock this one on the head, get the publicity and JREF should be obliged to test you for the Million. Also, they'll already have a protocol to work with.

Thanks I'll check it out.
I think that Spectators protocol covers most of the issues and I'll use it, as it also allows me to use what I have learned through my experiments and with less fatigue.

I’ll still try to do it in September on the same spot that SezMe and I did the test on Coffee Creek since it was so good, thanks for that SezMe.

It’s pretty much set up, "the spot" but I’ll have to make sure and talk to the owner about testing there and reserve the cabin. He did say I could dredge there so the test still might happen there.

If you have anymore links like that one post them for me I would appreciate it.
Well this post almost reached 50,ooo views.

If I pass a lesser challenge and win, the JREF will not test me, they won't risk it, I.M.H.O.
They won't risk it now.
They claim that the protocol was to complicate and they didn’t understand what I was saying, but I think it is a cop out, since they accepted as per RemieVs e-mail and we only had two more issues that was the time-line for the duration of the testing of me and the dummies in the empty containers--as you can see in the posts here, those were figured out.

I know you guys are not blind and you know that I was willing to still communicate up to what I considered to be the deadline, that I kept repeating, which is in September and October.
I figured after that, that I would drop out if we couldn't get a workable protocol.

These guys in California might be willing and I’ll try them, I will keep you informed.

 

[SezMe]

edge, for your info, I used to be a member of IIG. In fact, I was the Investigations Chair.

edge, out of curiosity, do you have more than one dowsing rod? How long have you had the one I saw? Is it easy to find a willow branch that you can cut and shape into a dowsing rod? How did you first discover that putting a dime on the end would allow you to dowse for metal?

 

[edge]

edge, for your info, I used to be a member of IIG. In fact, I was the Investigations Chair.

edge, out of curiosity, do you have more than one dowsing rod? How long have you had the one I saw? Is it easy to find a willow branch that you can cut and shape into a dowsing rod? How did you first discover that putting a dime on the end would allow you to dowse for metal?

I have the L rods with bearings that I made to test on the bank in Hayfork remember.
I keep them till they break, “ the one you seen”, and that one is exceptional, it is about a year old.

I'll tell you a story.

I believe it was 1985 or there abouts, I was on exceptional ground and finding large amounts till it ran out.
We were pulling a once or more a day.
When it ran out I searched the property and found nothing according to the geological signs and knowledge.

The guy I was selling my gold to, “Tim Pogue”, he had a clam on a smaller creek and was dowsing since childhood, he was taught by his father. Some how James knows him.
He was about 70 years old then.
His claim was loaded with all the heavy equipment you could imagine, from backhoes to D9 cats.
He had several claims in several different states.
He made all his money through mining.
He was buying my gold to hang onto his claim in Hayfork. He was basically using that particular claim for a base, they had worked it out.
To try to keep his house there and his buildings for the hired help he had to prove that he was still pulling large quantities on that claim, because of the changes in the laws in California.
This worked for a while for him.
Forest Service eventually leveled the buildings.

I never believed in dowsing then and thought it was a bunch of B.S..
But I still couldn’t find anymore gold and told him I was bewildered.
He said he would dowse the area and put me back on it, so I said, “show me”.

Well he did and I was getting more and bigger pieces.
1 to 2 ounces a day. This went on for two months.

That fall he taught me just like I showed you, we made a complete circuit, the two of us.
He then said that if I dowsed and learned, that I would never turn a shovel of dirt with out getting what gold was available wherever I was mining.
So I went home and practiced over the winter months and went mining using his method with a sluice box and shovel.
I perfected the method that winter and for me it works.

He had told me that when the Army Engineers couldn’t find uranium in the Southwest that he put them on the correct spot before the bomb was completed and that’s how he made his first big money.
He had claims there too.


He was wrong about one thing that gold in the end of the stick would only react to gold and I believe I have learned more than I was taught.
I have treated this like a science project and I believe there is something of more value here.
I tested myself with silver or a dime, when I ran out of gold.
Gold, silver, and platinum works in the end of the willow, I tested those theories.
Anything else doesn’t have the pull except copper.
I can make a dowsing rod out of thick copper wire don’t know if it can find gold though.
The one thing I haven’t tested is what he said he used for locating uranium ore.


There is no way that the Idomotor effect can do what dowsing can demonstrate when it over comes gravity.
This is where the copper wire one comes into play, it’s so heavy that it’s hard to hold out in front of you with out it slipping and falling, this should be filmed and examined.

It’s not my hands or arms and I can do the demonstration just like you seen perfectly still, no movement of my arms or hands, 180-degree arch of movement with the copper-dowsing rod.
The connection to the hands is so great that it burns.
That's why I don't use it on the creek also.

The work that it puts out is more than the energy that is put into it.
You see my dilemma?
How many times can I be knocked about this?
You still up for this?
I'll be back in the morning.

 

[SezMe]

That's all very interesting.

How many times can I be knocked about this?

As many times as you can take. As you have seen, there is no end to the supply of "knockers" (so to speak) right here.

You still up for this?

I honestly don't know. Depends. And I don't know what it depends upon. But you missed this question - I'm interested in the answer.

Is it easy to find a willow branch that you can cut and shape into a dowsing rod?

In other words, could you create another willow dowsing rod roughly similar in size and shape to the one you have now? When you made the current willow dowsing rod, did you have to test it to make sure it worked? If so, how did you do that testing and how long did it take?

 

[Czarcasm]

I have the L rods with bearings that I made to test on the bank in Hayfork remember.
I keep them till they break, “ the one you seen”, and that one is exceptional, it is about a year old.

I'll tell you a story.

I believe it was 1985 or there abouts, I was on exceptional ground and finding large amounts till it ran out.
We were pulling a once or more a day.
When it ran out I searched the property and found nothing according to the geological signs and knowledge.

The guy I was selling my gold to, “Tim Pogue”, he had a clam on a smaller creek and was dowsing since childhood, he was taught by his father. Some how James knows him.
He was about 70 years old then.
His claim was loaded with all the heavy equipment you could imagine, from backhoes to D9 cats.
He had several claims in several different states.
He made all his money through mining.
He was buying my gold to hang onto his claim in Hayfork. He was basically using that particular claim for a base, they had worked it out.
To try to keep his house there and his buildings for the hired help he had to prove that he was still pulling large quantities on that claim, because of the changes in the laws in California.
This worked for a while for him.
Forest Service eventually leveled the buildings.

I never believed in dowsing then and thought it was a bunch of B.S..
But I still couldn’t find anymore gold and told him I was bewildered.
He said he would dowse the area and put me back on it, so I said, “show me”.

Well he did and I was getting more and bigger pieces.
1 to 2 ounces a day. This went on for two months.

That fall he taught me just like I showed you, we made a complete circuit, the two of us.
He then said that if I dowsed and learned, that I would never turn a shovel of dirt with out getting what gold was available wherever I was mining.
So I went home and practiced over the winter months and went mining using his method with a sluice box and shovel.
I perfected the method that winter and for me it works.

He had told me that when the Army Engineers couldn’t find uranium in the Southwest that he put them on the correct spot before the bomb was completed and that’s how he made his first big money.
He had claims there too.


He was wrong about one thing that gold in the end of the stick would only react to gold and I believe I have learned more than I was taught.
I have treated this like a science project and I believe there is something of more value here.
I tested myself with silver or a dime, when I ran out of gold.
Gold, silver, and platinum works in the end of the willow, I tested those theories.
Anything else doesn’t have the pull except copper.
I can make a dowsing rod out of thick copper wire don’t know if it can find gold though.
The one thing I haven’t tested is what he said he used for locating uranium ore.


There is no way that the Idomotor effect can do what dowsing can demonstrate when it over comes gravity.
This is where the copper wire one comes into play, it’s so heavy that it’s hard to hold out in front of you with out it slipping and falling, this should be filmed and examined.

It’s not my hands or arms and I can do the demonstration just like you seen perfectly still, no movement of my arms or hands, 180-degree arch of movement with the copper-dowsing rod.
The connection to the hands is so great that it burns.
That's why I don't use it on the creek also.

The work that it puts out is more than the energy that is put into it.
You see my dilemma?
How many times can I be knocked about this?
You still up for this?
I'll be back in the morning.

When you do, could you please tell us another story, 'cause stories will convince me much more then facts, links or cites from peer-reviewed studies ever would!

 

[Calcas]

Jeff has sent Mr. Guska the following e-mail:

Mr. Guska,

I've been following your progress on the challenge, and it is my determination that it is taking far too long and protocol negotiations are unlikely to reach a mutually satisfactory conclusion any time soon. Because of this, I am terminating your application.

I do appreciate your interest in the challenge and the amount of time you've spent on it, but the JREF can't afford to devote any more resources to your claim.

Should you wish, you can reapply again in one year, by which time you may have perfected your protocol enough so that negotiations will be much simpler.


Jeff Wagg
General Manager
James Randi Educational Foundation

Well, 14 months and over 1800 posts later I would have to agree it's about time. Edge was amusing for awhile but the entertainment factor has run out.

I submit that this thread is now either locked or sent to AAH where it can die a peaceful death. There are other "applicants" who we should be giving the floor to with their "claims" without always having to listen to another excuse from Edge.

Enough is enough.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Well, 14 months and over 1800 posts later I would have to agree it's about time. Edge was amusing for awhile but the entertainment factor has run out.

I submit that this thread is now either locked or sent to AAH where it can die a peaceful death. There are other "applicants" who we should be giving the floor to with their "claims" without always having to listen to another excuse from Edge.

Enough is enough.

I disagree. An integral part of an open forum is its open-ness.



On the other hand, is this cool or what: Unfazed by having his application terminated, edge continues claiming the JREF is too scared to test him and wows us with another fish tale.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

 

[edge]

That's all very interesting.



As many times as you can take. As you have seen, there is no end to the supply of "knockers" (so to speak) right here.



I honestly don't know. Depends. And I don't know what it depends upon. But you missed this question - I'm interested in the answer.



In other words, could you create another willow dowsing rod roughly similar in size and shape to the one you have now?

Yes.

When you made the current willow dowsing rod, did you have to test it to make sure it worked?

Yes because the pull sometimes breaks them right away and you have to find another one. It is difficult to find the right shape.

If so, how did you do that testing and how long did it take?
A few minutes.

As soon as I use it.
A green one is more reactive than the one I have, it is more sensitive, that's why this one is better it takes more of a target to react.
It works better in the test. Otherwise it picks up more when green, that is under the target when running the test. It was a difficult balance but the same on the creek, I pick up less of the fines, more of what I'm looking for. In other words I don't feel every little speck. Specks don't make you the money.
To me they are interferences also.
The older the better same with sex.

There are many variables, the test is different from dowsing on the creek, that's what I was doing up here, to know how to pass the test.

 

[edge]

I disagree. An integral part of an open forum is its open-ness.



On the other hand, is this cool or what: Unfazed by having his application terminated, edge continues claiming the JREF is too scared to test him and wows us with another fish tale.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

I tried to give SezMe the history from the start of my experiences.
It's the truth you could ask James Randi if he knew him, like I said above?
He has died though.
He was, a good and fair man.
He paid me very well and was a benefactor for miners.

In memory Of Tim

Well Carcass, I'm not finished yet.
This is my post unless I'm in communist China all of a sudden!
No one is forcing you to be on this post.

The Jerf knows how to disrupt a dowsing test.
Add sand; remember I tested with black sand.
White sand has many specks in it too; I tested on the beaches of Florida too.
Many specks of what ever.
All individual hits, this I know already and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

As far as excuses I didn’t back out of this next test.
I figured we were close to coming to an agreement.
I am still posed and ready.

SezMe says,

edge, for your info, I used to be a member of IIG. In fact, I was the Investigations Chair.

I'll give them a try.

 

[edge]

If you had any credibility left, I'd be mildly miffed by a statement like this:



Instead, I consider it absurd and borderline hilarious.



If your amazing ability works with black sand, you should have provided it and used it in the protocol. But since you have proven yourself to be unable to stick to one straightforward protocol, that would have been too easy, wouldn't it?

Your constant changing of the protocol suggests that you have no idea how to properly test your amazing ability. Furthermore, you seem to be interested in persisting your very likely delusion of dowsing rather than ever agreeing to a controlled test again.

IIG would be well-advised not to waste any of their resources on a deluded old man.



SezMe, do you consider giving them a heads-up?

Look I was in the middle of testing and applied early to be in because of the change in their rules.
I still didn't back out.
The testing is done and I know how to do this to pass now, as the score with SezMes' test is a good indicator.
Not to mention what I know about it as I tested, the scores you no nothing of.

A straightforward protocol like what the way they think it works or should?
The way it has been set up by them?
That's not how to pass but fail again there is a difference in the way it works in the field and the way to fail again in an office.
They are not interested in the science of it or the way it works.

If I was betting on a dowser failing doing it there way I would have to bet with them, they don’t want to lose.
Neither do I.

Your constant changing of the protocol suggests that you have no idea how to properly test your amazing ability.

Specktators protocol is what I am going to use, don’t you read?
And I already stated why.
I’m to Trust some one against me to tell me with out knowing what the score was is absolutely ridicules.
I ask for what is logical and common sense that's all.

You might as well use copper for dummies.
It's Just as obvious.

Your constant changing of the protocol suggests that you have no idea how to properly test your amazing ability. Furthermore, you seem to be interested in persisting your very likely delusion of dowsing rather than ever agreeing to a controlled test again.

IIG would be well-advised not to waste any of their resources on a deluded old man.

Well why would I be going to them then?
Don't get all excited.
I willl prove this.

 

[SezMe]

I disagree. An integral part of an open forum is its open-ness.

I agree with GzuzKryst's disagreement. It's not like we have a limited number of skeptics to deal with these challenges. Anyway, what's the harm? If Christophera can go on for 10^88 pages, why not let this thread hold that out as a lofty goal?

 

[edge]

Because I won't be testing any more it should be easy to be striaght forward with them and in presenting a protocol now.

Size of the target as SezMe pointed out is all I need to check now.

I mean no offence what is obvious to me is one sided.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Look I was in the middle of testing and applied early to be in because of the change in their rules.
I still didn't back out.
The testing is done and I know how to do this to pass now, as the score with SezMes' test is a good indicator.
Not to mention what I know about it as I tested, the scores you no nothing of.

A straightforward protocol like what the way they think it works or should?
The way it has been set up by them?
That's not how to pass but fail again there is a difference in the way it works in the field and the way to fail again in an office.
They are not interested in the science of it or the way it works.

If I was betting on a dowser failing doing it there way I would have to bet with them, they don’t want to lose.
Neither do I.


Spectators protocol is what I am going to use, don’t you read?
And I already stated why.
I’m to Trust some one against me to tell me with out knowing what the score was is absolutely ridicules.
I ask for what is logical and common sense that's all.

You might as well use copper for dummies.
It's Just as obvious.


Well why would I be going to them then?
Don't get all excited.
I willl prove this.

Because I won't be testing any more it should be easy to be striaght forward with them and in presenting a protocol now.

Size of the target as SezMe pointed out is all I need to check now.

I mean no offence what is obvious to me is one sided.

(Bolding by me.)

It took you only fourteen minutes to contradict yourself for the umpteenth time.