A Challenge for Oliver: This is America

[ConspiRaider]

Conspi,

Had I lived at the time of WWII I would have been saddened but I could have been able to fathom that we as Americans would incarcerate an entire group of innocent people. Looking back I can imagine how Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus, how we time and again broke treaties with native Americans and butchered them, how we subjugated an entire race of people first by enslaving them and then through segregation (Apartheid). I can imagine how we denied women a right to vote, that the Republicans broke into and bugged the Democratic headquarters and then covered it up. Tammany Hall and Boss Tweed, corrupt Democratic politics in Chicago, the Mob infiltrating the unions, graft, corruption, etc., yeah, sadly I can imagine all of those things.

The sad truth is that power corrupts. The founders of our nation new that America wouldn't be perfect. They never had any such illusions. I challenge you to go back and find evidence of any contrary to that proposition. I will offer a counter, please note "In order to form a more perfect union". Not "perfect", "more perfect".

Could "I imagine" the shenanigans of this administration? Yes, I can. It wasn't the first time and it won't be the last.

Please, don't get me wrong, I do not make a Tu Quoque argument. I condemn any and all efforts to subvert the constitution or to act in an illegal and/or unethical manner.

That said, I do not have a problem with criticism of the US per se. On the contrary, I have joined with AUP, The Fool, zep and others to criticize where and when I though it appropriate.

The problem is that Octavo's post is just propaganda. It's spurious rhetoric with no substance. It is polemic in nature and does not seek to advance anything other than Americans are wrong to respond to criticism.

Huh? Why?

Please go back and look at my response to Octavo. What exactly was my crime? I disagreed with him and told him why.

Conspi, I'm 46 and I've only voted for Republican presidents in all my years. However, something has changed and I'm concerned. I've committed to voting for a Democrat for president for the fist time in my life. I'm committed to changing the direction of America. I apologize to no person for my willingness to be intellectually honest and civicly responsible.

That said, I won't put up with the silly rhetorical nonsense of folks like Octavo. Go look for yourself. It is largely one great big strawman and ad hominem poisoning the well.

I agree with Pogo, "we have seen the enemy and he is us". Americans bear the responsibility for the actions our nation has taken. Octavo's condescending assurance that his criticism is only targeted to our government is sill and nonsensical given the fact that we are a republic.

You and I agree, our nation is trending in the wrong direction at the moment. Let's work to improve that. Foreigners are welcome. I just want folks like Octavo to understand one thing, we can disagree without being touchy. That we disagree doesn't make us wrong. That we disagree does not prove that Americans are any different that anyone else. It just means that we disagree.

Thanks again

Very good stuff, Rand. And I absolutely agree that some of the on-the-outside-looking-inners aren't seeking to be constructive in their criticism. They're just dumping on Yankland, and Yanks, for whatever deep personal reasons. Not all. But they are out there.

And hey! Soon you won't have old Dick Nixon to kick around anymore! Tomorrow I leave on my fact-finding research and working-vacation so that I can get this friggin' Western film script under my belt. Then get started on the next one. Ain't it a great country, or what?

 

[Tricky]

<snip>
You and I agree, our nation is trending in the wrong direction at the moment. Let's work to improve that. Foreigners are welcome. I just want folks like Octavo to understand one thing, we can disagree without being touchy. That we disagree doesn't make us wrong. That we disagree does not prove that Americans are any different that anyone else. It just means that we disagree.

I agree with Conspi. It is a damn fine post. If I weren't Language Dictator, I'd nominate it.

 

[RandFan]

Thanks guys.

 

[Octavo]

The problem is that Octavo's post is just propaganda. It's spurious rhetoric with no substance. It is polemic in nature and does not seek to advance anything other than Americans are wrong to respond to criticism.
<snip>
that said, I won't put up with the silly rhetorical nonsense of folks like Octavo. Go look for yourself. It is largely one great big strawman and ad hominem poisoning the well.

Hey Randfan,

First of all nowhere do I suggest that it's wrong to respond to criticism (for a guy that likes to point out strawmen you're remarkably adept at constructing them). My point was that Americans are generally "touchy" about this subject and don't respond WELL to criticism. I was at pains to point out that my post was my opinion and from my personal experience. All of your bluster about strawmen and ad hominem just sound like another American unable to handle an opinion they don't agree with.

You can dismiss my posts as nonsense if you like, but I think it's a valid attitude and if anything your behaviour has only reinforced my preconceived notions.

 

[RandFan]

First of all nowhere do I suggest that it's wrong to respond to criticism.

Yes, you do.

My point was that Americans are generally "touchy" about this subject and don't respond WELL to criticism. I was at pains to point out that my post was my opinion and from my personal experience. All of your bluster about strawmen and ad hominem just sound like another American unable to handle an opinion they don't agree with.

Which makes my point. I simply responded to the criticism and you don't like it.

You can dismiss my posts as nonsense if you like...

Sounds fair to me.

 

[Octavo]

First of all nowhere do I suggest that it's wrong to respond to criticism.

Yes, you do.

No, I didn't. Please quote me saying that Americans shouldn't respond to criticism.

Octavo's condescending assurance that his criticism is only targeted to our government is sill and nonsensical given the fact that we are a republic.

Oh I'm sorry. Next time I'll tar all Americans for all the ills of your government. I'm sure you'll enjoy that so much more. I forgot that half the country voted for the other guy. How silly of me. I guess that means I must be blamed for apartheid too...

 

[Hokulele]

Jumping back in for a quick observation, one thing I have noticed about the criticism of American government from both insiders and outsiders is that many seem to feel that any corrections or adjustments should happen instantaneously (impeach the bastard!). That is not how the U.S. system has worked historically. It may take a relatively long time for the political pendulum to swing, but it does happen. Heck, it took 14 years to repeal Prohibition! Although the wait may seem frustrating, it does prevent overcorrection.

Criticize America or Americans if you must, but allow us and our system the time it usually takes to make improvements. And improvements have been made, and will continue to be made. Yes, there may be setbacks, but I still have faith in the system as a whole. In other words, post again after the next election and see what things are like.

 

[Octavo]

Criticize America or Americans if you must, but allow us and our system the time it usually takes to make improvements. And improvements have been made, and will continue to be made. Yes, there may be setbacks, but I still have faith in the system as a whole. In other words, post again after the next election and see what things are like.

I have complete faith in the American people and their ability to bring about change. You've shown it time and again and really your history is a good example of how well democracy can work (yes I know it's actually a republic - theoretically so is ours).

 

[Ion]

I didn't want to see your post:

...
Sadly people see what they want to see. I think folks like Ion and Oliver have such profound enmity toward America that there is not likely much that we can do.

But I saw it.

So much for your "...Sadly people see what they want to see...".

To answer the thread's opening post, I have lived in:

.) Redwood City (Ca.) and read The San Jose Mercury News,

.) Baltimore (Md.) and read The Washington Post,

.) Chicago (Il.) and read The Chicago Tribune;

.) New York (N.Y.) and read The Star Ledger,

.) Knoxville (Tn.) and read something there, The Knoxville Sentinel maybe, I am not sure,

.) San Diego (Ca.) and read The San Diego Union Tribune.

I don't watch T.V., I consider it a waste.

My experience with U.S. is based on living in these places and reading the local papers.

I thought that U.S. is Michael Jordan in basketball, and Rowdy Gaines and Matt Biondi in competitive swimming.
I went to Chicago.
People weren't Michael Jordans.
They were obese, and inept in mathematics, science, culture and looks.
At work it took me great skills to qualify to come to U.S., but what I found on the ground was sub-par skills, teamwork, and ethics.
In Tennessee, an Engineering manager publicly said he was going to teach me LabVIEW because it's easier than me learning it alone, privately told me that a company like that has no time to teach and promptly took a hypocrite two-week vacation, during which I solved the LabVIEW assignment but still didn't get credit for, and I thought that's not the way I was brought up.
Many more such experiences in U.S. taught me of money greed and back stabbing over people's well being.
When Bush lied to start the war in Iraq in 2003, I understood that U.S. is made of millions of Bush-lite who don't have Bush's social power but are alike.
In the streets, locals were lecturing me about 'God' without scientific evidence, but ironically U.S. needs to import more scientific-minded people like me than people like the locals who lecture me.
The U.S. Departement of Labor considers people like me to be professionally skilled, and the people lecturing me about 'God' to be unskilled.
Still, I get lectured in the streets about this imaginary 'God'.

Reading the U.S. newspapers I observed that the Americans don't know sports.
Americans believe that golf and baseball are sports.
Golf and baseball are games.
They believe that distances are measured in yards, feet and miles instead of meters.
They believe that people are weighed in pounds, instead of kilograms.
They believe that temperatures are in Fahrenheit instead of Celsius.
Like in Europe, circa 1600.
In Tennessee, the newspaper stated in tiny print that Thorpe (no country) broke the world record in swimming in 200 free in 45 seconds.
It should have said 1:45.35 instead.
In California, the newspaper stated how many lovers an average man gets in a lifetime.
I thought "What? When I was a student in France I was getting this many in two years. Are the Americans living repressed in hospitals and monasteries, or what?"

I was born in Romania, lived in France, Canada and U.S..
The most advanced culturally is France.
I learned that I am not a Capitalist like in U.S. most people are -with consequences of being repressed-, but a liberal and hedonist like in France.

I am in U.S. now, in San Diego -the city of surfers-, imposing my lifestyle on Americans.

 

[boooeee]

They were obese, and inept in mathematics, science, culture and looks.

It's probably due to our meaty, crooked noses.

 

[Ion]

I wrote this once:

It's probably due to our meaty, crooked noses.

I remember.

Americans do have a challenge in looks and personal care.

 

[Elizabeth I]

To answer the thread's opening post, I have lived in:

.) Redwood City (Ca.) and read The San Jose Mercury News,

.) Baltimore (Md.) and read The Washington Post,

.) Chicago (Il.) and read The Chicago Tribune;

.) New York (N.Y.) and read The Star Ledger,

.) Knoxville (Tn.) and read something there,

.) San Diego (Ca.) and read The San Diego Union Tribune.

I don't watch T.V., I consider it a waste.

My experience with U.S. is based on living in these places and reading the local papers.

I thought that U.S. is Michael Jordans in basketball, and Rowdy Gaines and Matt Biondi in competitive swimming.
I went to Chicago.
People weren't Michael Jordans.
They were obese, and inept in mathematics, science, culture and looks.

EVERYBODY in Chicago was fat and ugly? And you missed the Field Museum, the Shedd Aquarium, the Chicago Museum of Art, the Chicago Symphony, the Chicago Public Library and some of the greatest 20th-Century architecture around?

That would be the same Chicago that's home to the Enrico Fermi Institute and the James Franck Institute?

At work it took me great skills to qualify to come to U.S., but what I found on the ground was sub-par skills, teamwork, and ethics.
In Tennessee, an Engineering manager publicly said he was going to teach me LabVIEW because it's easier than me learning it alone, privately told me that a company like that has no time to teach and promptly took a hypocrite two-week vacation, during which I solved the LabVIEW assignment but still didn't get credit for, and I thought that's not the way I was brought up.
Many more such experiences in U.S. taught me of money greed and back stabbing over people's well being.

NOBODY in Romania EVER lies about how much work he/she does, who actually had an idea, or who really did the work on a project? NOBODY?

When Bush lied to start the war in Iraq in 2003, I understood that U.S. is made of millions of Bush-lite who don't have Bush's social power but are alike. In the streets, locals were lecturing me about 'God' without scientific evidence, but ironically U.S. needs to import more scientific-minded people like me than people like the locals who lecture me.
The U.S. Departement of Labor considers people like me to be professionally skilled, and the people lecturing me about 'God' to be unskilled.
Still, I get lectured in the streets about their imaginary 'God'.

And this proves what, except that you don't know how to walk away from annoying people?

Reading the U.S. newspapers I observed that the Americans don't know sports.
Americans believe that golf and baseball are sports.
Golf and baseball are games.

I don't even know what this means. What is the difference between a game and a sport? Is dressage a sport? What about tennis? What about ice skating? What about hockey? What about [to name one that you, as a Romanian, should be familiar with] gymnastics? Is a sport only what you say is a sport?

They believe that distances are measured in yards, feet and miles instead of meters.
They believe that people are weighed in pounds, instead of kilograms.
They believe that temperatures are in Fahrenheit instead of Celsius.
Like in Europe, circa 1600.

What do you mean, "they believe [X] is measured in [Y]"? There's no "believing" about it. Of course distances are measured in yards, feet and miles. They are also measured in meters. Of course things can be weighed in pounds (also ounces) as well as kilograms.

What is your problem with the Fahrenheit scale instead of Celsius? Mr. Fahrenheit invented the mercury thermometer. Anders Celsius only thought of a new way to make marks on the tube.

And I don't think people in Europe circa 1600 were taking the temperature of much of anything on any scale since Galileo had only invented the thermometer in 1593 and I imagine it took the concept a while to spread.

In Tennessee, the newspaper stated in tiny print that Thorpe (no country) broke the world record in swimming in 200 free in 45 seconds.
It should have said 1:45 instead.

Newspapers in Romania NEVER print typographical errors?

In California, the newspaper stated how many lovers an average man gets in a lifetime.
I thought "What? When I was student in France I was getting this many in two years. Are the Americans living in hospitals and monasteries, or what?"

I find that hard to believe. I can't believe you ever shut up long enough to get laid.

I was born in Romania, lived in France, Canada and U.S..
The most advanced culturally is France.
I learned that I am not a Capitalist like in U.S. most people are -with consequences of being repressed-, but a liberal and hedonist like in France.

I am in U.S. now, in San Diego -the city of surfers-, imposing my lifestyle on Americans.

Would that be the same France where nobody can get a real job any more because of that silly law that says if you hire someone you can never fire them, so employers just have temporary workers? The one where they periodically burn down whole sections of Paris just to keep from being bored?

How were you ever persuaded to leave those Paradises on Earth, Romania and France? Could it be a little thing about...oh, I don't know...how much money you're earning here?

 

[WildCat]

I didn't want to see your post:

But I saw it.

So much for your "...Sadly people see what they want to see...".

To answer the thread's opening post, I have lived in:

.) Redwood City (Ca.) and read The San Jose Mercury News,

.) Baltimore (Md.) and read The Washington Post,

.) Chicago (Il.) and read The Chicago Tribune;

.) New York (N.Y.) and read The Star Ledger,

.) Knoxville (Tn.) and read something there, The Knoxville Sentinel maybe, I am not sure,

.) San Diego (Ca.) and read The San Diego Union Tribune.

I don't watch T.V., I consider it a waste.

My experience with U.S. is based on living in these places and reading the local papers.

I thought that U.S. is Michael Jordan in basketball, and Rowdy Gaines and Matt Biondi in competitive swimming.
I went to Chicago.
People weren't Michael Jordans.
They were obese, and inept in mathematics, science, culture and looks.
At work it took me great skills to qualify to come to U.S., but what I found on the ground was sub-par skills, teamwork, and ethics.
In Tennessee, an Engineering manager publicly said he was going to teach me LabVIEW because it's easier than me learning it alone, privately told me that a company like that has no time to teach and promptly took a hypocrite two-week vacation, during which I solved the LabVIEW assignment but still didn't get credit for, and I thought that's not the way I was brought up.
Many more such experiences in U.S. taught me of money greed and back stabbing over people's well being.
When Bush lied to start the war in Iraq in 2003, I understood that U.S. is made of millions of Bush-lite who don't have Bush's social power but are alike.
In the streets, locals were lecturing me about 'God' without scientific evidence, but ironically U.S. needs to import more scientific-minded people like me than people like the locals who lecture me.
The U.S. Departement of Labor considers people like me to be professionally skilled, and the people lecturing me about 'God' to be unskilled.
Still, I get lectured in the streets about this imaginary 'God'.

Reading the U.S. newspapers I observed that the Americans don't know sports.
Americans believe that golf and baseball are sports.
Golf and baseball are games.
They believe that distances are measured in yards, feet and miles instead of meters.
They believe that people are weighed in pounds, instead of kilograms.
They believe that temperatures are in Fahrenheit instead of Celsius.
Like in Europe, circa 1600.
In Tennessee, the newspaper stated in tiny print that Thorpe (no country) broke the world record in swimming in 200 free in 45 seconds.
It should have said 1:45.35 instead.
In California, the newspaper stated how many lovers an average man gets in a lifetime.
I thought "What? When I was a student in France I was getting this many in two years. Are the Americans living repressed in hospitals and monasteries, or what?"

I was born in Romania, lived in France, Canada and U.S..
The most advanced culturally is France.
I learned that I am not a Capitalist like in U.S. most people are -with consequences of being repressed-, but a liberal and hedonist like in France.

I am in U.S. now, in San Diego -the city of surfers-, imposing my lifestyle on Americans.

Thanks for reminding us all what Eurotrash really is Ion. I'm sure you'd move back there (and wish you would) but apparently it sucks so much you left. But hey, you can always go back. It's been 10 years since the last European genocide...

It must suck to be you.

 

[Texas]

Hey Randfan,

First of all nowhere do I suggest that it's wrong to respond to criticism (for a guy that likes to point out strawmen you're remarkably adept at constructing them). My point was that Americans are generally "touchy" about this subject and don't respond WELL to criticism. I was at pains to point out that my post was my opinion and from my personal experience. All of your bluster about strawmen and ad hominem just sound like another American unable to handle an opinion they don't agree with.

You can dismiss my posts as nonsense if you like, but I think it's a valid attitude and if anything your behaviour has only reinforced my preconceived notions.

I am curious as to what it will take the world to love the United States. I am almost 70 and in my lifetime I can't remember any time in my life when the "world" wasn't saying the same things they are saying now. Maybe the far right is correct that the US should just withdraw from the stage and refuse "foreign entanglements" all together. Would that help?

 

[Hokulele]

Hmmm, 6 cities, 8 problems, 1 common denominator. I wonder what this means . . .

 

[Zep]

For the record, I don't subscribe to Ion's POV. But then, I've never lived for an extended time in the USA.

 

[Octavo]

I am curious as to what it will take the world to love the United States. I am almost 70 and in my lifetime I can't remember any time in my life when the "world" wasn't saying the same things they are saying now. Maybe the far right is correct that the US should just withdraw from the stage and refuse "foreign entanglements" all together. Would that help?

Well I don't think people generally "love" other countries. There are many countries I admire or are ambivalent towards, but none that I love (besides my own of course).

The isolationist stance is interesting. I'm not sure that it could still work in today's economy, but if any country can do it successfully it would be the U.S. Not that I'm advocating it. I think the U.S. has an important role to play on the world stage.

 

[Ion]

Hmmm, 6 cities, 8 problems, 1 common denominator. I wonder what this means . . .

It means:

U.S..

 

[Ion]

Thanks for reminding us all what Eurotrash really is Ion. I'm sure you'd move back there (and wish you would) but apparently it sucks so much you left. But hey, you can always go back. It's been 10 years since the last European genocide...

It must suck to be you.

I know that it must suck to be Wild Cat trash from Chicago.

 

[Hokulele]

It means:

U.S..

Of course. How could I have missed that?