More Fun with Homeopath Dana Ullman, MPH(!)

[Dave_46]

I am beginning to understand your objections and I sort of get the feeling that you are genuinely concerned that homeopathic remedies do nothing, perhaps the homeopaths have great convincing powers - I can assure you that most homeopaths are not good at convincing people - they prescribe for 100 to 150 people daily, at least 80 percent come again, get better / benefit, are cured etc. Homeopaths do not get the severely ill cases except those told to go home and wait for....good homeopaths send the serious cases for conventional medical consultation in the first instance.

<snip>

I left that sentence complete, because I don't like cutting sentences when I quote them. I am referring to the bit in the middle about the number of people treated daily. To "prescribe" for 100 people, and assuming an eight hour working day, that gives less than 5 minutes per consultation. For 150, just over 3 minutes. Is this correct?

Dave

 

[SYLVESTER1592]

So the right kind of homeopathically treatable conditions (which will also not be life threatening conditions - at least to start with) say chronic arthritis of the small joints - fingers, toes and wrists with Caulophyllum 6C water potency repeated as required over 6 months (maximum once daily - repetition to be decided by homeopath on homeopathic indications) DNA sample be obtained at start and end of trial from control and trial group.

9 such trials starting every 15 days, with small groups (10 to 12?) to cut the cost and learn how to avoid bias, errors, fraud etc.

Cost would be high but reasonable.

The reason why I'm bugging you about this is because rheumatology is not a easy subject in internal medicine. You might want to think this over...
First look at all the known causes of arthritis then start limiting and start designing your trial to cater to a specific disease or cause.
I know this is hard to work around to, because you are used to reason from a symptom as your main viewpoint. You could choose a symptom with a shorter differential diagnosis. Just a suggestion...

SYL

 

[manioberoi]

Why DNA? Not ANA serology (or RF auto-antibodies)? Just curious...

Thought of taking an X-ray? What other tests would you do?...

SYL

ANA Serology would only be indicative of autoimmune disorder RA - here we are trying to set up a protocol that is repeatable.

If the hypothesis that homeopathy cures at the core level of cell biology is true then we should be able to find very minute beneficial changes in DNA (eg lenghthening of telomeres).

Xrays are harmful in excess and to be avoided unless essential for diagnosis - use here not considered ethical.

 

[manioberoi]

No, the lactose in the sugar pills. You were using this as a reason for using liquid preparations rather than pills, remember.

Incidentally, your objection to the use of alcohol in the preparation doesn't stand: as long as the placebo was made from the same solvent as the remedy, it would smell the same as the remedy.

alcoholus is a homeopathic remedy so is sac lac. Pure water is not - so far.

 

[SYLVESTER1592]

ANA Serology would only be indicative of autoimmune disorder RA - here we are trying to set up a protocol that is repeatable.

If the hypothesis that homeopathy cures at the core level of cell biology is true then we should be able to find very minute beneficial changes in DNA (eg lenghthening of telomeres).

Xrays are harmful in excess and to be avoided unless essential for diagnosis - use here not considered ethical.

???

Have you ever taken a plane somewhere? Do you know how much radiation you already have received? We are not aiming at overies or testikels and you are using it at the beginning and end of the trial to make the diagnosis and evaluate progression, so that is perfectly ethical.

SYL

 

[manioberoi]

Caution: that's conspiracy theory, that is. Remember ? "good journals are controlled by big bad pharmas ?"

If we start in this direction, we'll have to move this thread, you know.

the Kemist

Applying the standards of proof that homoeopathy uses, we've established that it's fatal in this very thread!

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

That does not even meet the "homeopathic standards" as perceived by you - can be discounted.

Conventional medicine kills millions by way of iatrogenic disease every year.

 

[SYLVESTER1592]

Conventional medicine kills millions by way of iatrogenic disease every year.

What do you base that on? What do you consider iatrogenic?

SYL

 

[manioberoi]

Reply

Manioberoi, I have a tangent question:

Have there ever been tests between homeopaths to see which ones do best. Which individual homeopaths have the best track record? I know they give out prizes, but these don't say much about the results a homeopath achieves, but more about his/her popularity.

NOT PUBLISHED


Could it be taught to a nurse or someone with a basic understanding of human physiology and disease? Or maybe to someone with very little knowledge of these?

NO

What would you say is the basic skill of a homeopath?

Empathy Consultation Symptom Pathology Repertory Materia medica Follow up Ethical Legal

I would also like to restate a question posted earlier but which did not recieve a reply:



"If this still is a personalized optimalization of the remedy... Have there been tests of the difference in effect of the manufacturer or the batch used?"

NONE PUBLISHED SO FAR

SYL

See in blue above for reply.

 

[SYLVESTER1592]

ANA Serology would only be indicative of autoimmune disorder RA - here we are trying to set up a protocol that is repeatable.

If the hypothesis that homeopathy cures at the core level of cell biology is true then we should be able to find very minute beneficial changes in DNA (eg lenghthening of telomeres).

I conclude from this that you will be looking at hand osteoarthritis. I think you should know that the DNA differences in leukocyte telomere length that are seen have only been published recently. You would be using a method that has been around for a little while.

Do you regard this as the golden standard.

Did you consider that?

(Adding a link to the article)
BTW in regard of the X-ray comment, I seriously do hope that you were not thinking of evaluating DNA from chondrocytes...
Second: maybe you should consider this (link) it may clarify why diagnosis is important for your method to work. Maybe reconsider other tests I mentioned.

SYL

 

[SYLVESTER1592]

See in blue above for reply.

Could you expand on that a little?...

 

[manioberoi]

True. You can't ethically test homeopathic remedies on patients whose life would be endangered by a delay in proper medication (ex.: cancer). However there is an exception in the law (in US at least) that permits it in terminal patients: compassionate use. It's been used before to allow testing on laetrile/amygdalin.

But barring that, the testing could be done on more bening illnesses, ex.: flu. I still can't see no reason testing couldn't be done. A 6 months test, as was proposed earlier, is not unusual for drugs. Testing costs would be greatly diminished if you consider that toxicity testing is not necessary, you don't need pharmacokinetics (nothing to measure there), AUC, ect. Basically, you remove all the costier lab work. What's left is writing a decent protocol for remedy/placebo preparation and tracking.

As to the funding matter, I'm not sure homeopathic remedy manufacturers are as poor as they would like us believe... I don't know how such things cost in India, but here in north america they're sold at a similar price to real medicine, and sometimes more !

the Kemist

Not that they are poor. Just that the trials would not make any one of them richer than the others since there can be no patent on single remedies.

Flu and diarhhoea and any other self limiting diseases be NOT taken up for homeopathic trials as expressed in this thread.

 

[manioberoi]

Adult, mentally compeptent patients always have the right to accept or reject treatment. Jehova's Witnesses regularly refuse blood transfusion. No one gets sued. Though, in the Dutch case, the issue seems to be that doctors were, err, mistaken about the efficacy about the "alternative" treatment they recommended.

Patients very often reject real medicine and stagger off to woo frauds to get phoney treatment. Where are the current users of homeopathy that have been cured of syphilis? If the quacks kept proper records, the proof would be available (or not, as the case may be). As it would be for any of the "alternative" cancer cures.

The records are anecdotal. There were no controls you see.

 

[SYLVESTER1592]

The records are anecdotal. There were no controls you see.

I think you mean there were no consistent recordings of ALL patients that were treated. Controls is a research term... not what this is about.

SYL

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

The records are anecdotal. There were no controls you see.

There do not have to be any controls, there just have to be good records. Patient presents to doctor or quack with diagnosed illness. Is treated and results noted. Rate of recovery is compared to rate of recovery known from population statistics.

Quacks do not keep any data but depend on anecdotes. Dead patients do not report in.

 

[manioberoi]

How can you be so certain?

6 Polo ponies stationed 500 kms away, that I have never seen - veterinary treatment over 3 months of 1 failed - treated homeopathically on indications reported by owner(s) ( as advised by veterinary). Later 5 more cases- ALL 6 recovered. Veterinary now wants to learn homeopathy!! But veterinary homeopathy is not recognised in India. ( Steroidal autoimmune disorders, worms not removed by conventional drugs came out in numbers (40 to 50)with 10 days of Cina 6c, repeated ligament injuries cured and stopped recurrence using ACTH 6C followed by Ruta 6C- these are verifiable from the owners some of whom I have only spoken on phone but never met).

I have been cured among other problems of a slipped disc in 2005- back was bent sideways and forwards ( confirmed by specialist of AIIMS) with 5 days of Hypericum perforatrum 6C followed by 5 days of Calcarea carbonica 6C) - I could walk straight on the fourth day.

56 year old lady suffering from arthritis and high BP taking losacar for 10 years - treated homeopathically - BP 120/80 - no drugs, arthritis cured, took part in public dance performance last week.

Post brain tapeworm infestation (treated conventionally) lesion in MRI - treated homeopathically - cleared up in 30 days as seen in MRI - a polo player whose horse was cured.

These are all recent cases.

There were no controls. Was it all a fluke? For every case cured there is one that is only partially or not at all benefited - but homeopathy has its limitations - coffee, tobacco, environment etc.

The diagnosis is done conventionally. The treatment is by homeopathic analysis.

That is how I am so sure.

Let's get on with finding a way to get these trials properly designed.

Once that has been done we can find out who is going to organise the trials so that there is no question of adverse comment either from the homeopaths or from the practitioners of conventional medicine, whichever way the trial goes. It won't be the end of homeopathy or for that matter of any of the pathys. They would meander on as usual.

 

[manioberoi]

I think you mean there were no consistent recordings of ALL patients that were treated. Controls is a research term... not what this is about.

SYL

That is true. Only the cured cases were highlighted in the literature. The others remained unpublished in the records and are lost. In those days the conventional doctors were the best homeopaths and they had no such problem as they could switch back and forth if the patient demanded.

Todays homeopaths are not as meticulous about records as they should be - because patients switch back and forth and the mixture can become difficult to analyse.

Maybe homeopaths should start by keeping better records and informing the patient what remedy is administered (most do not tell ).

 

[SYLVESTER1592]

6 Polo ponies stationed 500 kms away, that I have never seen - veterinary treatment over 3 months of 1 failed - treated homeopathically on indications reported by owner(s) ( as advised by veterinary). Later 5 more cases- ALL 6 recovered. Veterinary now wants to learn homeopathy!! But veterinary homeopathy is not recognised in India. ( Steroidal autoimmune disorders, worms not removed by conventional drugs came out in numbers (40 to 50)with 10 days of Cina 6c, repeated ligament injuries cured and stopped recurrence using ACTH 6C followed by Ruta 6C- these are verifiable from the owners some of whom I have only spoken on phone but never met).

I have been cured among other problems of a slipped disc in 2005- back was bent sideways and forwards ( confirmed by specialist of AIIMS) with 5 days of Hypericum perforatrum 6C followed by 5 days of Calcarea carbonica 6C) - I could walk straight on the fourth day.

56 year old lady suffering from arthritis and high BP taking losacar for 10 years - treated homeopathically - BP 120/80 - no drugs, arthritis cured, took part in public dance performance last week.

Post brain tapeworm infestation (treated conventionally) lesion in MRI - treated homeopathically - cleared up in 30 days as seen in MRI - a polo player whose horse was cured.

These are all recent cases.

There were no controls. Was it all a fluke? For every case cured there is one that is only partially or not at all benefited - but homeopathy has its limitations - coffee, tobacco, environment etc.

The diagnosis is done conventionally. The treatment is by homeopathic analysis.

That is how I am so sure.

Let's get on with finding a way to get these trials properly designed.

Once that has been done we can find out who is going to organise the trials so that there is no question of adverse comment either from the homeopaths or from the practitioners of conventional medicine, whichever way the trial goes. It won't be the end of homeopathy or for that matter of any of the pathys. They would meander on as usual.

I thought you understood what we consider proof....?
As this will only serve to "prove"that homeopathy works in your opinion and a negative result does not mean anything to you, why do you want to do the trial?

You do the trial to make up your own mind and advance the knowledge in your profession...Not for us. We couldn't care less at this point.

If there was some evidence of homeopathy working, we would pay attention, but don't do it for us...

Do you understand what I'm saying?

SYL

 

[SYLVESTER1592]

In those days the conventional doctors were the best homeopaths and they had no such problem as they could switch back and forth if the patient demanded.

That's funny...

Decades ago modern medicine was non-existent. This explains the rise of homeopathy in it's early years. Compared to modern medicine homeopathy lacks on many fronts.

Explanation: Conventional/ Modern medicine improves itself, homeopathy is rigidly fixed to what the good book says.

Do you see the difference?

SYL

 

[manioberoi]

I thought you understood what we consider proof....?
As this will only serve to "prove"that homeopathy works in your opinion and a negative result does not mean anything to you, why do you want to do the trial?

You do the trial to make up your own mind and advance the knowledge in your profession...Not for us. We couldn't care less at this point.

If there was some evidence of homeopathy working, we would pay attention, but don't do it for us...

Do you understand what I'm saying?

SYL

Not for your consumption. Others are also entitled to a reply.

"Originally Posted by Pipirr
How can you be so certain? "

 

[manioberoi]

I left that sentence complete, because I don't like cutting sentences when I quote them. I am referring to the bit in the middle about the number of people treated daily. To "prescribe" for 100 people, and assuming an eight hour working day, that gives less than 5 minutes per consultation. For 150, just over 3 minutes. Is this correct?

Dave

Absolutely.
I do not subscribe to this kind of homeopathy. But given the acute shortage of homeopaths I guess these homeopaths cannot turn away all but the 25 to 30 patients that a homeopath should ideally consult in a day if a fourth of them are new cases requiring 45 minutes to an hour each.