Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

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I just don't understand how they would create a huge, flying, fire breathing dragon, with nothing to base it on.

This joint must have been absolutely crawling with dragons of all sorts...

People are forever creating things, drawing things, sculpting things, etc, from nothing but their imagination.

There are all sorts of cool creatures documented through history that never really existed.

While I agree people do create their own monsters - I know of no Native American Stories of Fire Breathing Dragons... I was always happy to know they were in Asia - are there Native American stories about Dragons?

Drapier - I agree, it may be just that simple.

But like the story you provided, they didn't take an ordinary bird and give it fur, or a wolves head.. They just made it larger. With this non hairy human, they not only gave it a body covered in hair, but some attributes of an ape. Why wouldn't they have just given it a name that fit its description?

As far as I know, coyote always looked like a coyote, a wolf always looked like a wolf - an eagle always looked like an eagle, the Thunderbird looked like a bird - maybe larger, but still a bird. The stories gave them abilities one would not assign them today, but they always looked the same (I could always be wrong).

RayG said:
I'm no expert in NA stories either, but whether a story/legend/myth is helpful or not has no bearing on whether it is true.

With all due respect RayG, white mans history is not the only one worth understanding. Stories and legends can have an impact on our lives today. Look at the work being done to find out where some of the bible stories actually happened.. I am always amazed to find out this book (I never really believed) actually referenced historical events. Every time I hear on the news they have discovered a new site that is referenced in the bible, I get a little paranoid - LOL.

Sometimes to move forward, you need to look back to see where you have been.
 
While I agree people do create their own monsters - I know of no Native American Stories of Fire Breathing Dragons... I was always happy to know they were in Asia - are there Native American stories about Dragons?

Drapier - I agree, it may be just that simple.

But like the story you provided, they didn't take an ordinary bird and give it fur, or a wolves head.. They just made it larger.

You are obviously ill informed. Sometimes it has horns and teeth. Sometimes it is a human that transforms into a bird .

With this non hairy human, they not only gave it a body covered in hair, but some attributes of an ape. Why wouldn't they have just given it a name that fit its description?
Again, can you provide references of Native American stories where they are unambiguously describing an ape, rather than some other oversized hairy biped.

As far as I know, coyote always looked like a coyote, a wolf always looked like a wolf - an eagle always looked like an eagle, the Thunderbird looked like a bird - maybe larger, but still a bird. The stories gave them abilities one would not assign them today, but they always looked the same (I could always be wrong).

See above..


With all due respect RayG, white mans history is not the only one worth understanding. Stories and legends can have an impact on our lives today. Look at the work being done to find out where some of the bible stories actually happened.. I am always amazed to find out this book (I never really believed) actually referenced historical events. Every time I hear on the news they have discovered a new site that is referenced in the bible, I get a little paranoid - LOL.

Sometimes to move forward, you need to look back to see where you have been.

Nice Melissa. Instead of providing evidence for your assertions, you question someone else’ cultural sensitivity.

We will be waiting for you to provide evidence that Native North Americans had a pervasive belief in real life, oversized, hairy humanoids with clearly defined ape characteristics..

You might want to consider reviewing some other parts of this thread; specifically some contributions by HairyMan, and the discussion that followed . ..
 
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While I agree people do create their own monsters - I know of no Native American Stories of Fire Breathing Dragons... I was always happy to know they were in Asia - are there Native American stories about Dragons?
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Yes, though there's no indication they were fire-breathing.

But like the story you provided, they didn't take an ordinary bird and give it fur, or a wolves head.. They just made it larger. With this non hairy human, they not only gave it a body covered in hair, but some attributes of an ape. Why wouldn't they have just given it a name that fit its description?

As far as I know, coyote always looked like a coyote, a wolf always looked like a wolf - an eagle always looked like an eagle, the Thunderbird looked like a bird - maybe larger, but still a bird. The stories gave them abilities one would not assign them today, but they always looked the same (I could always be wrong).
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Then how do you explain the Wendigo?

Though descriptions varied somewhat, common to all these cultures was the conception of Wendigos as malevolent, anti-social, and cannibalistic supernatural beings (manitous) of great spiritual power...

In some traditions, humans who became overpowered by greed could turn into Wendigos; the Wendigo myth thus served as a method of encouraging cooperation and moderation.

Among the Ojibwa, Eastern Cree, Westmain Swampy Cree, and Innu/Naskapi/Montagnais, Wendigos were said to be giants, many times larger than human beings (a characteristic absent from the Wendigo myth in the other Algonquian cultures). Whenever a Wendigo ate another person, they would grow larger, in proportion to the meal they had just eaten, so that they could never be full.
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The italicized bit (my emphasis) reveals the real reason behind the Wendigo myth -- it was a means to ensure cooperation and moderation. What better way to encourage cooperation among children than filling their heads with stories of sasquatch, a giant, evil, hairy, man-like creature that roams the woods and eats children. The Native American equivalent of the boogeyman.

With all due respect RayG, white mans history is not the only one worth understanding. Stories and legends can have an impact on our lives today. Look at the work being done to find out where some of the bible stories actually happened.. I am always amazed to find out this book (I never really believed) actually referenced historical events. Every time I hear on the news they have discovered a new site that is referenced in the bible, I get a little paranoid - LOL.
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I prefer historical fact to fiction, regardless of what culture it relates to. I have no doubt that many Bible stories are based on actual places, but whether they are based upon actual (miraculous) events is another matter. Getting a bit off topic, but is there a particular event that convinces you of the validity of the Bible? A parallel may be drawn here in that bigfootdom, like religion, depends more on faith than evidence.

Can you imagine if someone like Criss Angel lived and performed 2000 years ago? I'm betting some would think him some sort of prophet, able to do wondrous miracles, and he would likely have devoted followers.

Sometimes it is a human that transforms into a bird.
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Shape-changing is a standard theme populating many NA legends, though no explanation is ever given how it would be possible. Pure fantasy/fiction.

RayG
 
Seems I was beaten by Drapier, Diogenes and Ray...

But here it goes aniway to fatten my postcount.
Well, lets just put what we may or may not have currently aside. What I always go back to though with the Native American culture, is most of their stories even if not 100% factual, are based on something that really did happen, even if the events are somewhat skewed. In order for the Native American to even conjure up such a creature, I would think they would have needed something as a reference.
As drapier wrote, the refference might as well be a human.

You know the story behind the Patagonia (a region of Southern South America inArgentina and Chile) name? I more than once here hinted about it to pro-bigfoot posters. AFAIK none of them bothered to do the research. Here it is:
Patagonia comes from the Spanish "patagon" that means *drums roll* Big foot. When the first European explores and settlers arrived there, they found a race of "giants". The giants were a group of Native South American tribes (Tehuelches and Aonikenk) that were very tall (for the time) when compared with the Europeans.

They were about 1.8m tall, while the average European was about 1.6m tall. They also used fur "coats" that gave them an even bigger appearance. Their size and appearance are registered by records that span since the early European voyagers, archeological findings and pictures (not to mention their descendents)

Link:
http://www.bariloche.com.ar/museo/TEHUEL.HTM (In Spanish but the pics help you get the picture)

Fossil tracks of giant terrestrial sloths (and dinosaurs, Patagonia has a very interesting and varied geological register) also played a role on casting the name. Its easy to see how a similar story could evolve and a Tehuelche-like tribe become a tribe of hary giants and nowdays lie behind one or more of the Native American myths nowdays sheltered under the "sasquatch" umbrella.

And that's one among other possibilities that I think are more probable than a giant Nort Ameican bipedal primate lying at the heart of the myth.


Was north america ever the home of a primate of any kind? (other than human), and was it here at the same time as humans?
Yes, there is a fossil record of primates in North America. It is, however, much older than human presence and of small size. Note also that -as already pointed many times, the very absence of fossils of large primates in North America is not compatible with the interpretation of mythological hairy giants being unknown-to-science homnids.

But again, a myth about tall hairy man is not necessarily about a giant bipedal ape. There are alternatives.

Here are a couple more:
-A "Campbellian" approach, where the hairy man in the woods would be the result of the desires/fears of crossing the barriers that separates men from beasts;
-A "dehumanization" process of a rival tribe (possibly earlier settlers), perhaps coupled with some propaganda/distortions ("Granpa, how were the warriors you fought to conquer this land?" "Ah, big, wild!" *time passes* "Daddy, how were the people your grandpa fought?" "Oh, big, wild like animals" *time passes* "Daddy, how were the people that live here before?" "Oh, my grandfather told me they were tall and hairy").
-Moral or cautionary tales. “Son, stay away from the forests, there are brown bears there!” “So what mamma? Dady kills brown bears every now and then and I’ve got my bow!” “Ah… Yes, but there are also big hairy giants there, they are much more dangerous than bears and bows can not harm them.”

Heck, even apes could be at the root. There is a (small?) possibility that myths related to the constellation Ursa Majoris were brought from Asia with the ancestors of current Native American tribes and persisted. Myths of hairy wildmen started by orang-utangs (or even Meganthropus -if they existed- or a hipothetical remanant Gigantopithecus population) could have followed the same path.

To be honest, I think the each individual wild hairy man myth probably has a composite origin.

Bottomline: it is very hard to track a myth's origin; it may be even harder to use them to back the existence of real animals that are not known by science. Myth interpretation is strongly dependent on cultural background and personal bias. Thus, the many wildmen myths are quite probably among the weakest line of evidence for bigfeet as real animals.

Note that many of these myths are about shape-shifting entities that may even travel between the spiritual and material world. In this case, they would back Beckjord's interpretation of bigfoot!
 
The italicized bit (my emphasis) reveals the real reason behind the Wendigo myth -- it was a means to ensure cooperation and moderation. What better way to encourage cooperation among children than filling their heads with stories of sasquatch, a giant, evil, hairy, man-like creature that roams the woods and eats children. The Native American equivalent of the boogeyman.

Well, I you must know I feel the same way about the stories told by Native Americans - I know I have even typed comments very similar to this. Im not saying because they told these stories - all of this is true, but, even with the dragon, there is an animal it can go back to. And, not all North American Tribes have a story about dragons - very few in fact, but most have stories about Bigfoot. Maybe its fear of what could be in the woods - maybe it was a story designed to keep women and children in line.. I dont know, I wasnt there. But it is interesting.

I draw the line completely at bigfoot disappearing or putting you into hypnosis.. LMFAO
 
... but most have stories about Bigfoot.
Then share those stories with us.


You have not produced any evidence that Native Americans have traditional stories, that are based on encounters with a real animal as proffered by current proponents of the existence of a non-human North American primate ..


Claiming that a traditional story about a giant otter ' Must have been a Bigfoot, because we know there is no such thing as a giant otter .. ' doesn't count.
 
Claiming that a traditional story about a giant otter ' Must have been a Bigfoot, because we know there is no such thing as a giant otter .. ' doesn't count.

But if we know there is no such creature as bigfoot, all those stories about bigfeet must be about giant otters. It's all so confusing. :D
 
Correa Neto said:
Bottomline: it is very hard to track a myth's origin; it may be even harder to use them to back the existence of real animals that are not known by science. Myth interpretation is strongly dependent on cultural background and personal bias. Thus, the many wildmen myths are quite probably among the weakest line of evidence for bigfeet as real animals.

I do agree with you in many ways. Sure thats a hard task, and Im not sure we could ever do it - but it is interesting.

Just so you know, I dont base my reasons for my research on stories told by anyone. Stories can help though - depends on the stories you listen to.

Thank you Correa Neto, great comments.
 
..... but most have stories about Bigfoot.

......

Just so you know, I dont base my reasons for my research on stories told by anyone. Stories can help though - depends on the stories you listen to.

You are claiming such stories exist and that they add credence to the the claim that there is a non-human North American primate.. Then you say the stories are not the basis of your research , even though it has been the thrust of your argument, your last few posts ..



It is clear you have nothing ( so far ) with which to support your claim ...
 
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Hunters have not brought down a bigfoot as they look too human. (Tell that to the dead humans accidentally brought down by hunters.)
Err, show me a human that was purposely shot by fellow hunters?
 
erm...

To be fair and impartial, I should be the one to be blamed by bringing in to light (again) the myth issue, at post 4652
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2703016&postcount=4652
and perhaps by providing an unballanced view of her arguments.

Melissa has been discussing this aspect since then, but so far it does not seem to be her sole or main "pro" argument. From her past posts here and by my own (limited and with cloaking device engaged) visits to other forums, its not her "main dish". I think she's more on to prints and witness reports, but I may be wrong.

Actually, my reading is that even for Hairy Man (who is an anthropologist) the myths are not the main evidence, but complimentary pieces of data. I've seen LAL and Huntster being much more confident and prone to defend myths as important "pro" bigfoot evidence.

If someone is in touch with Hairy Man (or if she's lurking here) please confirm if I'm right or not.

OK, now all I have to do is to wait for Carcharodon to start whining about me being unfair, coward, etc. to Huntster.
 
Some ideas are too good not to think. A being that is like a human, yet not really human?

vampires
werewolves
zombies
angels
Frankenstein monsters
Jekyll/Hyde
fairies
leprechauns
bigfoot

I'm sure others could add to this list ad infinitum.
 
Err, show me a human that was purposely shot by fellow hunters?
Are you saying it hasn't happened ?

But that was not the point ..

The point is that humans have been shot by accident, thinking they were something else..


Why would you rule out a Bigfoot being accidentally shot under the same circumstances ?
 
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