Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

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Maybe, but I would sooner look to human psychological tendencies of imparting fearful traits to those outside their social groups.
OK, its a possile and plausible reasoning.

But its one among others. I think the current bigfoot myth is a patchwork, a composite. It has many sources, and quite possibly in many cases its impossible to trace them back with precision.

Note that the term "saquatch" is a wide umbrella under which several different Native American myths were grouped. Each one may -or may not- have had completely different sets of "roots".

Mastodon or giant terrestrial sloths femurs may (or may not) have contributed to some of them, and in variable degrees of importance.
 
Coleman and Noll have talked about how "nobody is making money off of Bigfoot". They might mean that nobody is making lots of money. Who knows?

But that's not the point. The point is that many Bigfoot promotors are setting themselves up to make money on Bigfoot. If all copyright laws were thoroughly enforced, we would all have to pay to see the PGF, Memorial Day video, etc. Even folks like Scott Herriott and MK Davis have DVDs to sell. Buy this...buy that. The crowd on BFF is always talking about what book or DVD they just bought. Footprint castings are for sale at conferences and meetings. Buy your own plaster chunk of the mystery to go along with that book and DVD.

For the most part, it looks like Bigfoot is being sold by entrepreneurs of various sorts. There are buyers. Oh yes, there are buyers.
 
T,

Can you list your previous guests, and any that are now confirmed for future shows?

I sure can. We started the show out with MK Davis on April 25th. After that we did a month of women since May was Mother's Day month and those women were:
Diane Stocking (Florida researcher)
Kathy Harper (Oregon researcher)
Montra Frietas (California researcher)
Monica Rawlins (TBRC member)

After that we've interviewed:

Bob and Kathy Strain (AIBR members and show producers)
An informal chat with Sean Forker (Sasquatch Experience blogtalk show host)
Jeff Meldrum
Alton Higgins (Oklahoma researcher, TBRC member and wildlife biologist)

Our future guests will be:
06-20 Rick Noll
06-26 Brian Brown (Founder of the Bigfoot Forums)
07-03 Chris Buntenbah (TBRC member and wildlife photog)
07-11 John Frietas (Operation Nightscream, "Godfather of callblasting" "human lie detector")
07-18 Loren Coleman and Lisa Shiel (Authors)
07-25 Scott McClean (Tirademan on the BFF has huge archive of newspaper accounts)
08-01 Sam Rich (georgiabigfoot.com, AIBR member, Bittermonk on the BFF)
08-08 SquatchCommando (Marine who had a sighting at Quantico)
08-15 Open
08-22 Todd Partain (Eyes in the Dark)
08-29 Open

Now you know as much as I know about our schedule.

These can be found at http://www.letstalkbigfoot.com
 
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Correa Neto said:
Thus, it is my opinion that, when discussing folklore, there's no need to explain or discuss why, how or if Native Americans actually saw apes or monkeys. Regardles how dear PGF, decriptions and renderings based on sighting reports and inference from casts can be for some, the question, I think, should be "why should they be referencing to hairy giants".

Well, lets just put what we may or may not have currently aside. What I always go back to though with the Native American culture, is most of their stories even if not 100% factual, are based on something that really did happen, even if the events are somewhat skewed. In order for the Native American to even conjure up such a creature, I would think they would have needed something as a reference.

Was north america ever the home of a primate of any kind? (other than human), and was it here at the same time as humans?
 
Try arguing that with yourself on your board ..

Then suspend yourself for two weeks...


I didn't say it wasn't off topic or that I don't go off topic.

I was just pointing out your hypocrisy .

Boo hoo - You started trouble, you got caught, deal with it. I see your posting again, so whats your problem exactly, If you are so unwelcome??

Seems to me now your reaching to throw whatever you can get to stick. Makes you look childish and petty. Once again, if you cant take the answer to a question, don't ask it. :)

Frankly, I am surprised you would type such complete nonsense. I'm embarrassed for you... lmao
 
For those interested in the subject, I would highly recommend Daniel Perez' newsletter Bigfoot Times.

http://www.bigfoottimes.net/

Last month's issue was a highly controversial one, with the short article entitled "Skookum Hokum" generating letters to the editor in a volume second only to the death of Rene' Dahinden. Some of the letters are reprinted in the latest (June 2007) newsletter.

As well as the old-school print newsletter, Perez distributes an electronic version to at least some of his subscribers. So as not to devalue his newsletter, he prints "Not For Redistribution" in each of his e-mail versions. In respect of his wishes, I won't quote from his newsletter directly.

Nevertheless, I feel that the topic is interesting enough to simply paraphrase. Two letters in the current newsletter are from individuals associated with the BFRO at the time the Skookum elk cast was made; Diane Stocking and Ron Schaffner, listed as a "co-founder" of the BFRO.

Most striking is Schaffner's comment, that the imprint showed hind legs, thigh and hooves of an ungulate! Schaffner also alludes to "critical thinkers of the group" that also perceived the imprint as that of an elk wallow.

Though I like to believe I am at least reasonably familiar with the minutea of Bigfootery, I had never heard of Schaffner's interpretation before. Indeed, once the features of the cast are pointed out, these very features are blindingly obvious. How is it that the Bigfoot-did-it interpretation came to be the official version of events, when it was obvious to the CO-FOUNDER of the BFRO that it was an elk? How is it that almost 6 years went by before an outsider ( Anton Wroblewski) was able to publicize and technically explain the elk interpretation? Why did the BFRO choose to dismiss the elk interpretation as that of Cliff Crook, whom the BFRO characterized as a hoaxer? Why didn't the opinions of these other "critical thinkers" come into play?

Perhaps now that Bigfooter vitriol is aimed at Dr. Wroblewski, people who knew better all the time are now safe to say so publicly.

So, belated congratulations to Diane Stocking and Ron Schaffner for having the courage to step up to the plate and state the obvious. Better late than never, I guess...

The Skookum elk cast is a Rosetta Stone of Bigfootery, as most of the core Bigfooters are tied in to vetting it as being Bigfoot in one way or another; Noll, Caddy, Meldrum, Green, Krantz, Fahrenbach, Chilcutt, and the BFRO. Perhaps social pressure has kept those Bigfooters who knew it was an elk all along from voicing their opinions publicly, at least until now.
 
What I always go back to though with the Native American culture, is most of their stories even if not 100% factual, are based on something that really did happen, even if the events are somewhat skewed.

I would have to disagree and say that just the opposite seems to be the case. Most legends and myths are pure fabrication or creative storytelling, regardless of what country or culture they originate with.

In order for the Native American to even conjure up such a creature, I would think they would have needed something as a reference.
They wouldn't have to be any more creative than the Greeks were with these critters. Start with some fear of the unknown (and the dark), stir in some superstition, add some wild imagination and you're well on your way to creating a typical legend/story/myth.

Was north america ever the home of a primate of any kind? (other than human), and was it here at the same time as humans?
At present no, there doesn't seem to be any actual evidence of that.

RayG
 
Two letters in the current newsletter are from individuals associated with the BFRO at the time the Skookum elk cast was made; Diane Stocking and Ron Schaffner, listed as a "co-founder" of the BFRO.

Most striking is Schaffner's comment, that the imprint showed hind legs, thigh and hooves of an ungulate! Schaffner also alludes to "critical thinkers of the group" that also perceived the imprint as that of an elk wallow.
:jaw-dropp Daaaaamn.... Wonder what Noll has to say about that?

Team! Gather! Steady! Defensive positions! Chilcutt! Where's Chilcutt!? Ooooh dear.
The Skookum elk cast is a Rosetta Stone of Bigfootery, as most of the core Bigfooters are tied in to vetting it as being Bigfoot in one way or another; Noll, Caddy, Meldrum, Green, Krantz, Fahrenbach, Chilcutt, and the BFRO. Perhaps social pressure has kept those Bigfooters who knew it was an elk all along from voicing their opinions publicly, at least until now.
It will be very interesting watching whatever damage control comes into play now. I'm definitely thinking social pressure had a lot to do with it.
 
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You know I was in the BFRO and I honestly don't remember a whole lot of that bigfoot/elk wallow issue even on the internal yahoo list.
 
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Well, I would respectfully disagree RayG. I am certainly no expert in Native American stories, but these people have stories which either teach a lesson or help educate their children - sure some are just fun, but most stem from an animal they know of.

I just dont understand how they would create a story about a Big Hairy Ape, with nothing to base it on. Now, is this absolute proof of the animal being real - no. But, it is interesting to think about.
 
Team! Gather! Steady! Defensive positions! Chilcutt! Where's Chilcutt!?

Yes, Jimmy Chilcutt has most definitely vetted the Skookum elk cast has containing "dermal ridges", though as far as I know, he has not done so in print. In Jefferson Texas, Chilcutt showed cast copies of the "heel" (elk metacarpal joint) to myself and Scott Herriott. There was no ambiguity in his statements that they were "dermal ridges". At the time, I had no strong opinion on the subject, and was open to the possibility that the feature really represented Sasquatch.

In case it has not been pointed out, the BFRO webpage here:

http://www.bfro.net/NEWS/BODYCAST/green_statement.asp

contains this rather hyperbolic statement by John Green:

"For more than 40 years I have held the opinion that science can not be convinced of the existence of sasquatches by anything less than physical remains. I have now changed my opinion. I think the Skookum cast can do it, provided that enough influential zoologosts, mammalogists, anatomists, primatologists, etc. will take a serious look at it."

In one of the great ironies of this episode, it WAS a qualified professional (an ichnologist) who took a SERIOUS LOOK AT IT. This would also explain the motive for Green to pay for the cast copies; to enable the relevant professionals to look at it without risk of damage to the original, and because the copies are much less unwieldy than the original.

Another great irony is that it was Bigfooter Cliff Crook who said early on that the imprint represented an elk:

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/bigfootcentral/

"Report Update: bfro's "Skookum Cast"

Source: Audubon Society Associate & Bigfoot Central Investigators.

The 250 pound + plaster cast of the alleged Bigfoot's alleged butt and heel mark, labelled and billed by (bfro) and Rick Noll as "The Skookum Cast", and claimed by Rick Noll to eventually become a find "just as big or bigger than the Patterson film", may be solved. Case investigators of this hulking plaster moulage have found signs pointing to a more credible and rational theory about just what was collected within this big plaster cast. The Skookum Cast label now gives way to a new label that could fit this cast much more scientifically. Here is the other side of the story.

Investigators strongly suspect that the cast collected is nothing more than the impressions from a kneeling elk. The hulking plaster moulage which is partially dotted with hoof impressions from an elk appears to point to a kneeling elk as the prime suspect. An elk will often kneel to retrieve food from a pool of water, or in this case, apples in a rain puddle. This was where they had baited for a Bigfoot and poured the cast after the fruit had disappeared. The most probably imagined "Bigfoot Butt Print" may have been the chest or belly area of an elk and the solitary purported heel mark impression inside the giant cast, may in fact, be nothing more than the bend (knee) mark of the elk's leg as it knelt in it's natural way to retrieve the apples from the ground. That would rationally explain why another "heel mark" or an actual Bigfoot footprint was not found inside the cast and that no Bigfoot tracks were found anywhere around or inside the cast. Another case of Wild Imagination gone bonkers. An example of mistaken identity strikes again."

Unfortunately for Crook, he never matched the features of a recumbent elk to the features of the cast, as Wroblewski did, to really make the case. Despite pointed attacks by the BFRO on Crook:

http://www.bfro.net/REF/hoax.asp

Crook appears to be vindicated after all. (Though Crook's photos may very well be fake...)
 
I just don't understand how they would create a huge, flying, fire breathing dragon, with nothing to base it on.

This joint must have been absolutely crawling with dragons of all sorts...

People are forever creating things, drawing things, sculpting things, etc, from nothing but their imagination.

There are all sorts of cool creatures documented through history that never really existed.
 
There was a "Hairy Man" depicted in Native American culture but I'm unaware of Native Americans using a word that in their dialect meant "ape." I'm not well read on Native American culture, though. I'm going to have to do some reading.
 
I am certainly no expert in Native American stories, but these people have stories which either teach a lesson or help educate their children - sure some are just fun, but most stem from an animal they know of.

I'm no expert in NA stories either, but whether a story/legend/myth is helpful or not has no bearing on whether it is true.

I just dont understand how they would create a story about a Big Hairy Ape, with nothing to base it on.
To which specific Native North American legend concerning a "big hairy ape" do you refer?

RayG
 
Thunderbirds are one of the few cross-cultural elements of Native North American mythology. Stories of Thunderbirds are found among the Plains Indians, as well as among Pacific Northwest, the Illini, Ojibwa, and Northeastern Tribes.

This bird was larger than any they had ever seen. Its wings, from tip to tip, were twice as long as a war canoe. It had a huge, curving beak, and its eyes glowed like fire. The people saw that its great claws held a living, giant whale.

In silence, they watched while Thunderbird - for so the bird was named by everyone -carefully lowered the whale to the ground before them. Thunderbird then flew high in the sky, and went back to the thunder and lightning it had come from. Perhaps it flew back to its perch in the hunting grounds of the Great Spirit.

Maybe the reference point for a giant bird is a normal-sized bird.
Maybe the reference point for a giant hairy man is a normal-sized non-hairy man.
 
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