Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

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I think Patterson was a cowboy with Hollywood dreams, trying to make a Bigfoot documentary ..

He made a costume to include it in the piece ..

After he shot the Patty footage, he decided ' what the hell ', I just might be able to make enough people think this is real, or keep em' guessing long enough, to make some money ,,

The rest is history ..

Patterson didn't have to hoax anyone... They hoaxed themselves...

I think the missing footage would shed some light on this.. Maybe not BH getting into the costume, but maybe some Patty feet prints/casts, before he filmed Patty ...

That is cool, but it means that somebody wore the suit in the PGF. This means that this person is...

1. Dead and can't confess.
2. Is Bob Heironimus, who is confessing.
3. Is alive, and is either unaware of BH's confession or doesn't care to correct the situation by presenting the fact that they were the one in the suit and not BH.

Patterson didn't have to hoax anyone... They hoaxed themselves...

Wait a second... What are you saying? Greg, don't you think that if Patterson had presented this footage as a proclaimed documentary showing a guy in a suit... that the Bigfooters would not be claiming it as authentic footage of a real Bigfoot? The Bigfooters are only fooled because Patterson claimed that it was a real Bigfoot. The Pattycakes are so convinced and entrenched in their convictions that they (at least some of them) would almost certainly reject a new hoax confession by Bob Gimlin. If Gimlin now said that it was all a hoax, he must be rebutted by claims that Patty cannot be a guy in a suit because the proportions and gait are entirely inhuman (even for a guy in a suit). Read NASI. It cannot possibly be a guy in a suit, no matter what anybody says!
 
After he shot the Patty footage, he decided ' what the hell ', I just might be able to make enough people think this is real, or keep em' guessing long enough, to make some money ..

The rest is history ..

Greg, I have to say something after I just said everything else. I don't think you heard the Tom Biscardi live radio show that included Bob Heironimus. A few months ago I urged everyone to listen to this.

If Bob Heironimus is telling the truth (as he is able to recall), then the PGF was originally intended to be a hoax and not foisted as a hoax as an afterthought.

BH says that RP was trying to hide the fact that BH was going up to Bluff Creek with himself and Gimlin. BH says that RP didn't want him to be seen with RP & BG right before the filming. The implication is that RP didn't want anyone making an eyewitness association that included RP, BG & BH in the same location that would be linked to Bluff Creek. It goes beyond that, as BH says that RP even had him try to conceal his vehicle near Bluff Creek using tree branches. These are not the kinds of things anyone does if they are about to film a "walking Bigfoot simulation" with no initial intent to fool anybody.

Greg, what I am saying is that if Heirominus is telling the truth... then Patterson had full intents to try to hoax the world from the onset of the scheme; and it was not a filmed Bigfoot encounter simulation that was later converted into a hoax (because it ended up looking rather convincing).
 
Wait a second... What are you saying? Greg, don't you think that if Patterson had presented this footage as a proclaimed documentary showing a guy in a suit... that the Bigfooters would not be claiming it as authentic footage of a real Bigfoot? [/B]

I didn't mean that quite literally... I just meant if no one had taken the bait, it would not have amounted to much of a hoax attempt..

Maybe then he would have fell back on his documentary aspirations ..
 
That's pathetic bullcrap. Are you taking BH's testimony out-of-context again? He was there for one day 40 years ago. But it wouldn't matter to you even if he precisely located (recalled) the film site anyway. You'd still say he is a liar because the film shows a Bigfoot not a guy in a suit, right?

He gave precise wrong directions. At first he said it was 5 miles in when in reality it was 20 miles up a winding dirt road. How could he forget something like that?

What context should I put it in?

We know that. PGF skeptics are charging him with being part of a hoax and continuing to stand by that hoax. BH confessed to being in the suit and consequently implicates Gimlin as being part of the scheme. BG had the opportunity to go on Biscardi's radio program with BH, but he refused the invitation.

Yeah. Fixing fences and getting some rest afterward is more important. Don't you think after 40 years he's tired of this crap? (Biscardi's not exactly a highly respected interviewer, BTW.) He refused an interview with KTAU, too; his wife shut the door on the reporter. So what?

Bob Gimlin issued a statement through his attorney.

He's told his story many times over the years. It doesn't change.

There's no record of that other than as anecdote. But it doesn't matter much because these tests are obviously worthless. What can anyone say about lie detector tests if Patterson passed one (saying he filmed a real Bigfoot) and Heironimus passed one (saying he was the guy in the suit).

Yep. And Heironimus wouldn't take on with a tester of Roger Knights' choosing.

Morris shouldn't be expected to still have a sales receipt for a gorilla suit he sold in 1967.

Why not? Most companies keep good records from the time they start business.

He spoke to Patterson twice on the phone including answering questions about modifying the suit.

He says. Evidently, BH had a suit and was scaring folks around Yakima. Someone else could have called saying he was Patterson, or Morris may have disremembered.

Anecdotes are okay for sceptics, I see (again).

Patterson said he was going to pull a prank. Only months later, Morris sees the PGF on TV, hears Patterson was the filmer... and recognizes his suit (with modifications).

I think you're getting the story mixed up. One of BH's stories was that he saw the film on TV over 30 years later and suddenly realized that was him. Morris contacted Long claiming he made the suit. Long included it in his book. Long didn't seem to care that the two were describing entirely different suits or that BH claimed variously that Chambers made the suit and that Roger did.

This is more Pattycake bullcrap. You've already been told why he couldn't replicate the suit, and the reason makes perfect sense. Dynel fur is no longer manufactured. This is why the fur suit is a different color (reddish) and texture. It also appears that there was little attempt to try to recreate the internal structure that would have it more closely resembling the PGF costume. BH also now has a pot belly that he didn't have in 1967.

Only you would believe that makes sense. He couldn't do it because he didn't do it. He may have sold Roger a suit for a reenactment for the documentary, but that's not what's in the film.

I must have missed the post about the Dynel, but you've been shown the kind of suits Morris was making in 1967, haven't you?
More desperation from a PGF believer. You guys have no choice other than to make wild claims of authenticity and inhuman proportions. The suit is designed to give the impression of an inhuman thing. It's a common strategy in costume design. It really amazes me that to this day there are people who think this really is a Bigfoot. Weird!

Oh, I'm not the one who's desperate here.

[/QUOTE]
Hollywood was placed in quotes because his suits were used in films and other stage productions. It's an obvious figure-of-speech. Why you can't understand such things is beyond me. Pattycakes are a strange bunch for sure.[/QUOTE]

I was just pointing out Morris is not Hollywood quality, beyond B pictures, anyway.

Why you can't understand such things is beyond me.
 
He gave precise wrong directions. At first he said it was 5 miles in when in reality it was 20 miles up a winding dirt road. How could he forget something like that?
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It's a reversal of the special time-distance continuum. Normally, the longer in the past an event occurred the greater the distance traveled. Kinda like a dad telling his kids he had to walk to and from school each day, uphill both ways of course. Over time, the distance the dad had to walk becomes greater and greater. :D

Yep. And Heironimus wouldn't take on with a tester of Roger Knights' choosing.
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I wouldn't trust a polygrapher no matter who recommended him. Simply put, a polygraph does not detect lies no matter who sits at the controls.

Anecdotes are okay for sceptics, I see (again).
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No, that's why I said: "Yeah, but without the suit it's all anecdotal ain't it?" back in post #4704. I was referring to both skeptics and proponents when I said that.

RayG
 
:v:

Could BH have meant it was five miles from camp on FS 12-n-13 to the site? The fact is both sides have extremely large holes in their stories. What about about Titmus being a professional tracker? "My first full day up near the end of Bluff Creek, I missed the tracks completely." That's an amateur tracker statement, a very weak amateur. What about the distance between them and the creature, or how far they tracked it, how about a film speed, weight, height, etc, etc, etc . . . ????????

m

:hb:
 
RayG said:
I wouldn't trust a polygrapher no matter who recommended him. Simply put, a polygraph does not detect lies no matter who sits at the controls.

Thats true, polygraphs measure your bodys reaction to the questions being asked. I do however trust most polygraphs, but they are not evidence of anything.
 
If there's no evidence of anything, exactly what is it you're trusting? RayG

Ok, bad choice of words. LOL


LTC8K6 said:
Says who?


Link

When a person takes a polygraph test, four to six sensors are attached to him. A polygraph is a machine in which the multiple ("poly") signals from the sensors are recorded on a single strip of moving paper ("graph"). The sensors usually record:
  • The person's breathing rate
  • The person's pulse
  • The person's blood pressure
  • The person's perspiration
Sometimes a polygraph will also record things like arm and leg movement. When the polygraph test starts, the questioner asks three or four simple questions to establish the norms for the person's signals. Then the real questions being tested by the polygraph are asked. Throughout questioning, all of the person's signals are recorded on the moving paper.
Both during and after the test, a polygraph examiner can look at the graphs and can see whether the vital signs changed significantly on any of the questions. In general, a significant change (such as a faster heart rate, higher blood pressure, increased perspiration) indicates that the person is lying.
 
:v:

Could BH have meant it was five miles from camp on FS 12-n-13 to the site?

Did he know where the camp was?

Maybe he thought Morris was the "guy from Planet of the Apes". Maybe he forgot he must have worn padding since his bulk was no match for Patty's. Maybe he meant to do his homework better..................

The fact is both sides have extremely large holes in their stories. What about about Titmus being a professional tracker? "My first full day up near the end of Bluff Creek, I missed the tracks completely." That's an amateur tracker statement, a very weak amateur.


Maybe he followed Heironimus' directions. ;) Bob was a taxidermist, not a professional tracker, so, yes, he was an amateur. He did find them, though. So did Laverty and crew a day later.

What about the distance between them and the creature, or how far they tracked it, how about a film speed, weight, height, etc, etc, etc . . . ????????

Or how the film was sent? There was a gaping hole in De Atley's memory on that when Long interviewed him.

I think the rest has been addressed already.

Why did it take Heironimus so long to speak up? If there was a hoax, why didn't he expose it when the film was on tour?
 
He gave precise wrong directions. At first he said it was 5 miles in when in reality it was 20 miles up a winding dirt road. How could he forget something like that? What context should I put it in?

A person can legitimately have failures of recollection for a real experience. He was there once, and may not recall that distance (40 years later) accurately. He had no reason to remember how far he drove on a dirt road even when he did it at the time. If descrepancies like this are an outright sign of lying, then we have to regard the differing accounts of P&G the same way. It means that if Patterson and Gimlin said different things about the encounter (and they do), then one or both are lying or simply weren't there at all.

When one tries to compare the testimony of P&G versus Heironimus, you can't ignore a profound fundamental difference. P&G are making an extraordinary claim in that they say they filmed an unclassified wild bipedal primate in California. Heironimus is making a less than extraordinary claim by saying he wore the suit that was supposed to trick the world into thinking an extraordinary creature had been filmed. To believe P&G you have to accept the existence of Bigfoot, while to believe Heironimus you only need to accept the existence of hoaxery.

Yeah. Fixing fences and getting some rest afterward is more important. Don't you think after 40 years he's tired of this crap? (Biscardi's not exactly a highly respected interviewer, BTW.) He refused an interview with KTAU, too; his wife shut the door on the reporter. So what?

Gimlin is being accused of continuing to cover-up a hoax by anyone who would think the PGF is fake. Heironimus is a key individual because he is claiming to be the one who wore the suit. He was friends with Gimlin and has always lived just a few houses away on the same street in Yakima. He maintains that Gimlin was the one who asked him to wear the suit (for Roger) and that he also helped him put the suit on at Bluff Creek. So BH is saying that BG is lying right now when he insists that BH was not involved at all. Gimlin has had multiple opportunities to confront BH in public and clear up this terrible difference in testimonies. You would think that if BH really wasn't the guy in the suit, that Gimlin would have little problem in proving this to any audience that would hear their open discussion with each other. That Gimlin refuses to do this can be taken as being very suspicious. Heironimus is willing to publicly confront Gimlin, but Gimlin won't do it. I would expect Pattycakes to want that encounter so that Gimlin would have the chance to really put Heironimus' claim in the trash. No dice on that, yet the believers seem satisfied anyway. Concerning Biscardi, no matter what Bigfooters think of him his radio show with BH was handled very well. He gave his Pattycake guests and callers the opportunity to directly confront BH and ask him questions about his claim of being in the suit. Heironimus answers them all with no hesitation and full confidence of his story. He genuinely appears to be an honest and "average guy" that is recalling his 40 year old experience as being inside the Patty costume. There are some questions that he simply cannot answer because his experience did not give him the chance to know everything possible. He is not shy to say he doesn't know (or cannot know) certain things.

For me (and probably others), the "holes" in BH's story are signs of honesty and not complex fabrication. He recalls the events to the best of his ability, and if something doesn't appear correct he doesn't just make something up. I get the impression that BH doesn't care much if there are people who don't believe him. This is to be expected from a "regular guy" who has done nothing outstanding in his relatively normal life as a beverage delivery man in Yakima. He is no kind of limelight-seeker and really prefers his privacy. When he is interviewed, he seems willing to talk openly and candidly. There seems to be no real indication that this man is lying about being in the Patty costume. Holes or odd facets of his testimony are not immediate indicators that he is lying. Remember that he is only recalling wearing a Bigfoot suit for Roger Patterson, not claiming that an undocumented wild primate was caught on film.

Bob Gimlin issued a statement through his attorney.

Why doesn't he confront PGF skeptics or BG? It's really a shame that BH is willing to allow believers to question him on live radio, but Gimlin won't give PGF skeptics a chance to question him. If BH had simply given a statement through attorney (I wore the suit), you would probably call it a worthless cop-out. I wonder if Gimlin's attorney believes that it wasn't a guy in a suit. I could easily imagine that his attorney has warned him about making any statements that name Bob Heironimus, because BH could sue him.

He's told his story many times over the years. It doesn't change.

I thought he changed his position to say that he could have been hoaxed.

Yep. And Heironimus wouldn't take on with a tester of Roger Knights' choosing.

Did Knights set up a lie detector test for Bob Gimlin?

Why not? Most companies keep good records from the time they start business.

I'll give you some of your own medicine... "Ask him yourself." It's not much of a problem for companies like Morris' to discard sales receipts after legal time statutes have passed. If he had no sales records at all from 1967, it doesn't mean he never sold any gorilla costumes to anyone in that year. An invoice for Patterson would be a great thing to have right now. Instead, we get his testimony of talking to Roger, selling him a costume, explaining how to bulk-up the shoulders and simulate big arms, and then seeing it on TV not long afterwards.

He says. Evidently, BH had a suit and was scaring folks around Yakima. Someone else could have called saying he was Patterson, or Morris may have disremembered.

Morris' recollection of selling the suit to Roger came only months after he sold it. It was when he saw on television that a guy named Roger Patterson filmed a Bigfoot. He recognized his suit (with customizations) on TV. He shipped the suit to the post office in Yakima in Patterson's name. If somebody ordered the suit pretending to be RP, then they also had to pretend to be RP when they picked it up at the PO.

I think you're getting the story mixed up. One of BH's stories was that he saw the film on TV over 30 years later and suddenly realized that was him. Morris contacted Long claiming he made the suit. Long included it in his book. Long didn't seem to care that the two were describing entirely different suits or that BH claimed variously that Chambers made the suit and that Roger did.

It seems that Roger gave Bob the impression that he had made the suit entirely by himself. BH couldn't really know that that was true, and he probably didn't really care. He may have later been told or heard that it was made by Chambers and thought this was true. In all honesty, Heironimus should not be expected to give a definitive declaration of who actually made the suit. He only really knows what Roger told him. Morris' testimony that it started out as his gorilla suit (with mods) makes sense for the situation.

Only you would believe that makes sense. He couldn't do it because he didn't do it. He may have sold Roger a suit for a reenactment for the documentary, but that's not what's in the film.

Yeah right, because NASI demonstrated that the subject in the film weighs 1,957 pounds.

I must have missed the post about the Dynel, but you've been shown the kind of suits Morris was making in 1967, haven't you?

Yep, I've seen them. With certain modifications you can make yourself a Bigfoot.

Oh, I'm not the one who's desperate here.

You are so confident that Bigfoot exists, that you will say stuff like that. Swagger Lu!
 
If the Patterson/Gimlin film is a fraud, why all the details? Why the sagittal crest? Why the long arms? Why the herniated muscle?

For that matter, why film it so far from home when it could just as easily been filmed closer? Why use a hand held 16mm camera when a tripod could've been set up for a better shot? Why shoot so much film before the encounter if they were expecting it? Why were they so surprised.

And about the subject. Why was it walking the way it did? Why did the walk appear to be natural instead of studied and rehearsed? If it was a man in a costume, why didn't it move like a man in a costume? If it was all a set-up, why did the subject snarl at Patterson and Gimlin on a number of occassions? And what kind of ape costume has a head that lets the wearer make facial expressions?

BTW, when did Hieronymous shrink to his present size? His arms are too short, his legs are too short, his torso is too short. Hell, his head is too small. Need I mention his dentary?

Finally, why this reluctance to test the evidence? Are you so certain you can't be wrong?
 
Wow, it sure took you long enough to come back to JREF. Couldn't stand another minute of PGF skepticism, eh?
 
If it was all a set-up, why did the subject snarl at Patterson and Gimlin on a number of occassions?

Thank you. This is my new favorite reason why the PGF must be real.

BTW, when did Hieronymous shrink to his present size? His arms are too short, his legs are too short, his torso is too short. Hell, his head is too small. Need I mention his dentary?

Wait a cotton-picking minute! Didn't SweatyYeti prove (and by "prove" I mean repeatedly assert without any substantiation) that the human head is too large to fit into a costume head the size of Patty's?
 
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