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More Fun with Homeopath Dana Ullman, MPH(!)

Some of you even went off the deep-end by saying that the 13 papers that Dr. Roy got published in NATURE are meaningless.


Unless they have some bearing on whether homoeopath works, they are meaningless in the context of this thread.

Here are all 15 of "the 13 papers that Dr. Roy got published in NATURE", plus a letter for good measure:

  1. R. Roy, D. Agrawal, J. Cheng, and S. Gedevanishvili, “Unexpected sintering of powdered metals parts in microwaves”, Nature, 399, 664 (June 17, 1999)
  2. R. Roy, D. Agrawal, J. Cheng, and S. Gedevanishvili, “Full sintering of powder-metal bodies in a microwave field,” Nature, 399, 668 (1999).
  3. Roy, R. and D. Agrawal, "Thermal-Expansion Materials Not So New," Nature 388:433 (July 31, 1997).
  4. Zhao,X-Zhong, R. Roy, K. A. Cherian, and A. Badzian, "Hydrothrmal Growth of Diamond in Metal-C-H2O Systems," Nature 385(6): 513-515 (1997).
  5. Paulus, William J., S. Komarneni and R. Roy, "Bulk Synthesis and Selective Exchange of Strontium Ions in Na4Mg6Al4Si4O20F4 Mica," Nature 357:571-573 (June 18, 1992).
  6. Malla, P.B., P. Ravindranathan, S. Komarneni and R. Roy, "Intercalation of Copper Metal Clusters in Montmorillonite," Letters to Nature 351:555-557 (June 13, 1991).
  7. Roy, R., "Diamonds at Low Pressure," Nature 325:17-18 (Jan. 1, 1987).
  8. Yarbrough, W.A. and R. Roy, "Extraordinary Effects of Mortar-and-Pestle Grinding on Microstructure of Sintered Alumina Gel," Nature 322(6077):347-349 (24 July 1986).
  9. Komarneni, S. and R. Roy, "Use of g-Zirconium Phosphate for Cs Removal from Radioactive Waste," Nature 299:707-708 (1982).
  10. McCarthy, G. J., W. B. White, R. Roy, B. E. Scheetz, S. Komarneni, D. K. Smith and D. M. Roy, "Interactions Between Nuclear Waste and Surrounding Rock," Nature 273:216-217 (1978).
  11. Katz, G., A. W. Nicol and R. Roy, "New Topotaxy in Precipitation from Spinel," Nature 223:609-610 (1969).
  12. Datta, R. K. and R. Roy, "Dependence on Temperature of the Distribution of Cations in Oxide Spinels," Nature 191:169-170 (1961).
  13. Roy, R. and H. M. Cohen, "Effects of High Pressure on Glass: A Possible Piezometer for the 100-Kilobar Region," Nature 190:798-799 (1961).
  14. Dachille, F. and R. Roy, "High Pressure Phase Transformations in Laboratory Mechanical Mixers and Mortars," Nature 186:34 (1960).
  15. Aramaki, S. and R. Roy, "Revised Equilibrium Diagram for the System Al2O3-SiO2," Nature 184:631-632 (1959).
  16. Dachille, F. and R. Roy "The Spinel-Olivine Inversion in Mg2GeO4," Nature 183:1257 (1959).

If you think any of these is relevant to homoeopathy, please say which, and what it says that supports homoeopathy.
 
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Dear JamesGully:

I noted with pleasure that you complimented me for being a "gentleman" (I here take the liberty to assume that you were referring to my conduct, not my gender). I very much try to conduct my part of debates in a gentlemanly manner, however, such conduct is greatly expedited if the opposition does the same. So, could you perhaps try to give me anopportunity ot terutn the compliment, sometime soon?

I know that you are very well versed in internet debates, so you cannot be unaware that writing whole sentences in capitals is considered shouting, and is certainly incompatible with gentlemanly conduct.

DARWIN COULD NOT SEEM TO BE A SUPPORTER OF HOMEOPATHY IF HE WANTED ANY SUPPORT FROM ORTHODOX SCIENTISTS AT THAT TIME. AND YET,

This does not make sense. At the time in question, homeopathy was not particularly controversial. It was new, and under debate, but it had certainly not been thoroughly ridiculed as I admit it has now. Finally, Charles Darwins track record is not exacly one of avoiding controversy.

THE RESULTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. AFTER 12 YEARS OF VERY SERIOUS PROBLEMS WITH HIS HEALTH AND AN INABILITY TO WORK ONE OUT OF THREE DAYS, HE EXPERIENCED REAL RELIEF FOR THE FIRST TIME. HMMMMM.

IT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT NO ONE HERE HAS COME FORWARD TO DECLARE THAT HYDROTHERAPY IS AN IMPORTANT TREATMENT. COME ON NOW...EVERYONE INTO COLD WATER TREATMENT NOW!

It is obvious from the quited sources that the therapy he received was quite complex, at least consisting of homeopathy, hydrotherapy, diet, and exercise, maybe more. For one who keeps requesting intellectual honesty from others, it is very inappropriate to insist on arbitrarily attributing Darwin's recovery to a specific part of this regimen.

IN THE MEANTIME, I WON'T DISCLOSE THE "HOMEOPATHIC STUDIES" THAT DARWIN CONDUCTED UNTIL MY FORTHCOMING BOOK IS PUBLISHED.

That is your privilege, but then I suggest you refrain from referring to them. Not to mention shouting about them.

YOU HAVE TO LOVE THE FACT THAT YOU CALL SOMETHING THAT PROVIDED IMPRESSIVE BENEFITS TO CHARLES DARWIN AS "THESE SHENANIGANS."

Again, you cannot make any conclusions about which part of the extensive regimen caused the improvement of Darwin's condition. In fact, you cannot even conclude that any part of it was the cause. We don't know what Darwin's ailment was, so we don't know the probabilities of a spontaneous remission. The anecdote is interesting, but remains an anecdote.

ONCE AGAIN, DARWIN COULD NOT ADMIT OPENLY THAT HE SOUGHT OUT HOMEOPATHIC TREATMENT. COULD HE? LOOK AT WHAT YOUR REACTIONS HAVE BEEN.

Allow me to remind you that this happened over a century before any of us was born, so I assume we would not have commented much. As for Darwin's contemporaries, they would have considered it at worst controversial, but certainly not a base for ridicule.

BY THE WAY...I HAVE A COPY OF GULLY'S 1846 BOOK, AND THERE IS NO REFERENCE TO THAT STATEMENT ON PAGE 83...AND THE BOOK ENDS ON PAGE 405, SO ANOTHER PERSON'S STATEMENT ABOUT PAGE 500+ IS DUBIOUS TOO.

Perhaps different reprints have differet pagination, but i don't think the referens was totha book.

MEDICAL HISTORIANS CONFIRM THAT GULLY WAS A HOMEOPATHY AND A HYDROTHERAPIST...BUT HECK, PEOPLE HERE HAVE BLINDERS ON AND HAVE NO SENSE OF HISTORY.

This is a good opportunity to clear up some therminology; in your opinoin, what exactly defines a "homeopath"?

Hans
 
Perhaps different reprints have differet pagination, but i don't think the referens was totha book.


According to the bibliography on the Darwin Correspondence Project website, the reference is to:

Gully, James Manby. 1846. The water cure in chronic disease: an exposition of the causes, progress, & terminations of various chronic diseases of the digestive organs, lungs, nerves, limbs, & skin; and of their treatment by water, and other hygienic means. London.

It is possible that JamesGully has the 1846 edition published in New York by Wiley & Putnam.
 
It is not rigmarole - it is consultation leading to an individualized remedy or series of remedies to be decided as the case progresses that we are talking here - and the series would nearly always be different for each person.

So we are not testing a remedy - we are rather testing homeopathy against placebo( and I have noted that some here call the remedy placebo!).

Such are the difficulties in deciding "proper testing conditions "

If there is consensus that randomly allotting patients to receive placebo and homeopathy (series of remedies as required) (placebo?) is acceptable proof - then if there is any significant difference (favourable to the latter) - would it be acceptable proof that homeopathy is not placebo?

No-one seems to have addressed this one directly so I'll have a go ... I think that manioberoi was proposing a tweak to the proposed conceptual test protocols.
  • Manioberoi seems reluctant to buy into the protocols proposed so far because there is some kind of sequence of steps that homoeopathic practioners go through with the patients wherein they use a sequence of "medicines" and modify the next "prescription" based on the outcome of the previous administration.
  • The test protocols proposed so far randomly (and blindly) substitute each prescription with a placebo. This will make the analysis of the results hard to interpret (unless we are only interested in the final administration of the sequence).
  • To keep with manioberoi's description of homoeopathic practices, the randomization should be applied to a particular homoeopath-patient link instead ... so that all remedies provided to a particular (randomly and blindly chosen) patient are substituted. I think that this is what manioberoi is proposing above - I'll leave it to him to correct me if I have misinterpreted his meaning.
The direct answer to his follow up question is YES!!! (Sorry for shouting.) If such a simple test was conducted properly (large enough sample, proper blinding, no data mining, no meta-analysis with less well conducted studies, etc) then it would be the start of a beautiful relationship between homoeopathy and the real world.

If there is a significant difference between homoeopathy and placebo, and this can be consistently reproduced, then we have something very, very interesting to consider.

What is there to be afraid of in seeing the results of such simple studies? Why come up with blocking tactics and resort to obscure and poorly conducted work? I think I know why there is not a mountain of good evidence (note - not hear-say) for homoeopathic effectiveness in respected peer-reviewed literature ... do you have any ideas that do not involve a persecution complex???
 
No-one seems to have addressed this one directly so I'll have a go ... I think that manioberoi was proposing a tweak to the proposed conceptual test protocols.
  • Manioberoi seems reluctant to buy into the protocols proposed so far because there is some kind of sequence of steps that homoeopathic practioners go through with the patients wherein they use a sequence of "medicines" and modify the next "prescription" based on the outcome of the previous administration.
  • The test protocols proposed so far randomly (and blindly) substitute each prescription with a placebo. This will make the analysis of the results hard to interpret (unless we are only interested in the final administration of the sequence).
  • To keep with manioberoi's description of homoeopathic practices, the randomization should be applied to a particular homoeopath-patient link instead ... so that all remedies provided to a particular (randomly and blindly chosen) patient are substituted. I think that this is what manioberoi is proposing above - I'll leave it to him to correct me if I have misinterpreted his meaning.

Yes, the protocol I envisage follow the third description. Thus, every prescription the practitioner makes will go through an independent distributor, from where either remedy or placebo is dispensed, according to which group the patient in question is in.

The only reasonable reservation I have yet met to this protocol is that some practitioners like to dispense remedies directly to the patient, having the patient take the remedy in the practitioner's presense.

This would require a complete set of randomized remedies, placebo, but since such a practice must already be limited to what inventory the practitioner can have in his practice, that should not be an insurmountable problem, either. What would be needed is that if the practitioner stores, say, 30 different remedies, a set of randomly numbered containers with these remedies must be fabricated. An equivalent set of randomly numbered containers with placebo should be added to the inventory. A computer program has the key to the patients, remedies and placebo. Thus, if the practitioner wants to prescribe Arnica 30C, he enters that into the computer program, and the program returns a number. The practitioner then finds that bottle and issues the medicine to the patient.
Of course the computer records the issuance.

In this way, neither the patient nor the practitioner will ever know if the remedy is real remedy or placebo.

Complicated, but not really difficult.

Hans
 
You can't write off an entire area of medicine on the basis of just 6 studies by a few authors especially when leading homeopathic bodies have published public refutations about this collated study.
We don't. We write off, or at least dismiss, homeopathy on the following grounds:

1) It is an archaic theory, founded in a time when the knowledge of pathology, disease agents, pharmacology, and physics was very limited. Just imagine if somebody from the 19th century tried to tell modern engineers how to design an airplane.

2) None of the principles in homeopathy, like cures like, miasms, vital force, uldtradilution, have any support in our current knowledge about how the universe functions.

3) No sound research has been able to consistently show positive results for any part of homeoapthy.

4) There exist alternative explanations for the observed practical results of homepathic treatment (natural recovery, placebo, observer bias, reporting bias, concurrent treatment, delusion, direct fabrication, etc).

Hans
 
*snip*
Here are all 15 of "the 13 papers that Dr. Roy got published in NATURE", plus a letter for good measure:
*snip*
:D

I cant help wondering if our good friend has trouble with research, or simply with counting.

... Or if he is just insincere.

Hans
 
Manioberoi seems reluctant to buy into the protocols proposed so far because there is some kind of sequence of steps that homoeopathic practioners go through with the patients wherein they use a sequence of "medicines" and modify the next "prescription" based on the outcome of the previous administration.


I seem to remember this forming the basis of one of bwv11's objections to double-blind trials of individualised homoeopathy: that the blinding would inevitably break down because the homoeopath would be able to see the results of the previously administered remedies. :D
 
Infortunately we all have our scam artists, whether it is the U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia, India, China etc but there is a legal system which does catch and at times punish such scamsters. The enforcement standards vary and we in India are gradually improving the standards of enforcement - aka India is the only country where PepsiCo is being compelled to put a seal of quality assurance "One Quality Worldwide" across all its product labels.

Ehr, and you believe THAT? Then I can inform you that, for instance in China, PepsiCo is still using old-fashioned soda cans with the opener ring that comes off, which is dangerous, but cheaper. "One Quality Worldwide", my foot.

Good Manufacturing Practices have been legislated in India for manufacturing Homeopathic drugs.

GMP does not ensure efficacy.

Homeopathic education is standardised under the relevant legislation. Homeopathic clinical field units and research centres have been set up across the country.

Yeah, nice effort. Which requirements does the Indian government impose on homeopathy for documenting efficacy, and where is it published?

India takes quality in health very seriously - the Courts have stepped in very often on complaints of the public about poor standards in government health facilities - they are being upgraded and improved - re-usable needles are banned/ phased out.

I'm sure they are making a honest effort, but as this is common knowledge, I don't suppose I insult you too much by pointing out that the initial platform for healthcare in India has enourmous room for improvement. So much that useless, but also harmless medicines (like we claim homeopathic remedies are) will be an improvment in many areas.

... Just like Hahnemann's practices were in the early 19th century in Europe where part of mainstream medicine actually made more harm than good.

*Yada, yada*....

Apollo has also reacted to criticism by Indian politicians by expanding its services to India's millions of poor. It has set aside free beds for those who can't afford care, has set up a trust fund and is pioneering remote, satellite-linked telemedicine across India."

Which part of Apollo's services are homeopathic? We all know that for those who can pay, India can offer excellent conventional medical treatment.

Hans
 
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A while ago I asked a precise question, but didn't get a reply. Please, could Mr. Ullman/Gully (or anybody else who deems that they are qualified to answer), give me a precise reply:

A test using homeopathic proving:

- A homeopath chooses three homeopathic remedies that will produce different, easily-distinguishable symptoms. We'll call them substance A, B and C.

- A reputed homeopathic laboratory produces samples of the three remedies, plus a placebo sample.

- The homeopath is given a sample, and his task is to ascertain if the sample is substance A, B, C or a placebo. He may choose provers whom he already knows (himself included), so he should have a clear idea of how they react to the three different substances.

- How many provers would the homeopath need in order to find the answer?
 
I seem to remember this forming the basis of one of bwv11's objections to double-blind trials of individualised homoeopathy: that the blinding would inevitably break down because the homoeopath would be able to see the results of the previously administered remedies. :D
Well, that was not exactly his objection (if I understood correctly the many words that Neil (aka bwv11) love to veil his replies in.

His objection is that the practitoner needs to observe an correlate the reaction of the patient to the remedy, and how can he do that if he doesn't know the remedy.

My reply to that was that the practitioner is to act as if all patients get verum, and the proof will be in the results.

Perhaps, as we have already attracted an unprecedented TWO perfectly literate homeopaths, we should wish for even more and hope that Neil (who is also quite literate) would collect enough courage to present his wiews here himself.

I don't post at Hpathy anymore (Neil knows why), but perhaps somebody else, or one of the homeopaths who are undoubtedly lurking here, could give him a hint?

Hans
 
You can't write off an entire area of medicine on the basis of just 6 studies by a few authors especially when leading homeopathic bodies have published public refutations about this collated study.

I don't write off an entire area on the basis of these six studies. The possibility that homeopathic remedies have any effect is excluded by everything we currently know about physiology and pharmacology and claims of cure that don't hold up under properly controlled conditions, are what drive me to write off an entire area.

Linda
 
Symptom suppression!!! Apparently you have no knowledge of homeopathy.

Homeopathy individualizes treatment based not only on symptoms - in addition to symptoms a homeopath needs to consider mentals, generals, pathology and sometimes genus epidemicus.

I wasn't speaking of the information you use to choose treatments, but rather how you decide whether a treatment worked.

Linda
 
Well, that was not exactly his objection (if I understood correctly the many words that Neil (aka bwv11) love to veil his replies in.
Ah. My recollection was a little off - I couldn't find the page where he said that.
 
Hey HC...
I apologize for the shouting. I haven't figured out how to do the quoting with a posting. I instead chose to differentiate my words from others by using capital letters.
Hahnemann was respected enough that he was voted as an honorary member of the NY medical society in 1832,...pointless historical digression...

So, one minute we have you accusing others of "intellectual dishonesty" then you manage to find time to take this fascinating but irrelevant historical tour.

Whereas, you have not found time to discuss Elia's papers having been so insistent that we take them seriously. I have taken them seriously and have paid good money to obtain a copy of the first of them. I have then asked a couple of specific questions to open the discussion of the content and one to allow you to demonstrate that you have indeed read the whole paper and have a copy to hand.

You have answered none.

Perhaps you need a reminder;

A. What bearing do you think it has on the issue of homeopathy?

B. What is your opinion of the statistical methods used?

C. What is the penultimate word on page 823?


You should be careful, in future, whom you accuse of intellectual dishonesty.

While I am on the subject of reminding the debts you owe, here are two of those other questions that you steadfastly refuse to answer;

I return to your clinical evidence base;

4. Can you tell us whether either of these machines works?

http://www.bio-resonance.com/elybra.htm

http://www.remedydevices.com/voice.htm

Bear in mind that the users of these machines rely on exactly the same anecdotal experience and fallacious post hoc reasoning that every other homeopath does. Are the homeopaths who use these machines right or wrong in thinking they work?

It's a very simple question and capable of a single-word answer.

9. I set a p-value for significance of 0.05 and run 100 trials. In no trial is the test substance distinguishable from the control. How many trials can I expect to show an apparent "effect" from my test substance?
 
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:) Now for my questions… :D
Let me explain what is said here so you understand the criticism:

“A report in May 1994 examined the homeopathic treatment of diarrhea in children who lived in Nicaragua [7]. On Day 3 of treatment the homeopathic group had one less unformed stool than the control group (3.1 Vs 2.1; p <.05).”

I'll get back to this further down...

“ However, critics [8] pointed out that not only were the sickest children excluded, but there were no significant differences on Days 1, 2, 4, or 5.”

This points to something called selection bias. etc. etc.

Now, on the subject of intellectual honesty, in the light of Sylvester's careful explanations will JamesGully cease to refer to these studies in support of his pet therapy? Or, will we see the usual stubborn refusal to listen to reason? (I'm not taking bets on this).
 
Symptom suppression!!! Apparently you have no knowledge of homeopathy.

Homeopathy individualizes treatment based not only on symptoms - in addition to symptoms a homeopath needs to consider mentals, generals, pathology and sometimes genus epidemicus.
Nevertheless, homeopathy deals with no manifestations of disease, except symptoms. It also deals exclisively with the symptomatic expression of remedies.

So, while I understand that homeopaths don't regard it as symptom suppression, but as "True Cure [tm]", for an outsider, I'm afraid there is no discernible difference. To see homeopathy as anything but pitting symptoms against symptoms, you need to believe in its efficacy. Which most of us don't.

Hans
 
Nevertheless, homeopathy deals with no manifestations of disease, except symptoms. It also deals exclisively with the symptomatic expression of remedies.

So, while I understand that homeopaths don't regard it as symptom suppression, but as "True Cure [tm]", for an outsider, I'm afraid there is no discernible difference. To see homeopathy as anything but pitting symptoms against symptoms, you need to believe in its efficacy. Which most of us don't.

Hans


Or to put it another way, manioberoi, this is another of those things that homeopaths baldly assert as true but without being able to corroborate. I'm afraid simply insisting that what you say is true but being unable to produce conclusive evidence or argument is not going to convince anyone here.

If I just insisted that you believe I had fairies at the bottom of my garden I hope you would ask me for some evidence.
 
As a side-point, someone also needs to point out that some of us have read a lot of homeopathic case reports and the one thing they singularly fail to show is anything like a consistent pattern of curing patients. We see an awful lot of treating patients and unwrapping the layers of "dis-ease" and re-repertorising to match new remedies to the current symptom picture, but precious little that one might call a cure except when the condition was inevitably self-limiting.

I think the idea that there are all these "cured" patients going around is one of those big rhetorical lies about homeopathy that is tackled too weakly.
 
Hey HC...
I apologize for the shouting. I haven't figured out how to do the quoting with a posting. I instead chose to differentiate my words from others by using capital letters.

Mmmokay. I notice others have explained the quoting feature, so enough about that.

Hahnemann was respected enough that he was voted as an honorary member of the NY medical society in 1832,

If so then it is frankly rather disingenious of you to assert that Charles Darwin did not dare to support homeopathy openly in the same years. Do try to make your story straight.

though he was voted out in 1843 just one week after his death because the medical society said that homeopathy was too much of an ideological and "economic" threat.

Source?

Although many people who were uninformed about homeopathy make fun of Hahnemann's concept of miasms, this concept were some of the earliest sophisticated insights about genetic disease. Hahnemann determined that people with syphilis, gonorrhea, and TB didn't die immediately, but during their disease process they gave birth (or sperm), and this new human being's health was influenced by the diseases of the mother and father. Such child would not have syphilis, gonorrhea, or TB, but they would have specific symptoms that were associated with each of their "miasms."

Excuse me, but this is nonsense. The diseases you mention are infectuous diseases, and have nothing whatsoever to do with genetic diseases. Do you really not know about these things?

and modern medical historians confirm that Hahnemann “showed sound balance and good judgment” in his advocacy of proper diet, fresh air, and exercise as a method of treatment. His promotion of hygienic measures during epidemics won him praise as a public health advocate, and his kind rather than cruel and harsh treatment of the insane granted him a place in the history of psychiatry (Rothstein, 1972, 152).

And, have you realized that herein probably lies the explanation to his successes in treating epidemics?

Hahnemann noted that Cullen asserted that the reason that Peruvian bark was an effective drug for malaria was due to its bitter and astringent properties. Hahnemann thought this was a peculiar statement because he knew more bitter and astringent medicines, but they provided no benefit in the treatment of malaria. He then conducted an experiment upon himself where he took this herb twice a day until he developed symptoms of its toxicology, and here he discovered that it created a fever with chills as well as other symptoms that were similar to malaria. Hahnemann proposed that Peruvian bark (which contains quinine) may be effective for treating people with malaria because it has the capacity to cause similar symptoms.

If you are to write about this, and claim intellectual honesty, you must also explain how the symptoms Hahnemann experienced are not charanterisic for Cinnhoa bark at all. In fact his observation is one of the riddles in the history of homeopathy, because the feever and chills he experienced cannot be repeated by others. In fact, later historians have suggested that he either was allergic to to some substance in the bark, or he simply happend to have a flu.

Also, do write that we now know that the active substance, chinine, ceartainly does not produce malaria-like symptoms when given to healthy subjects.

In other words, if you consider writing about the history of Hahnemann and homeopathy, you owe it to your readers to explain how Hahnemann's initial "discovery" of homeopathy was in fact based on a mistake ;).

Hahnemann ultimately conducted upon himself experiments with 90 other substances, and his colleagues and friends also engaged in these experiments. He had found a consistent pattern from these experiments, that is, he found that various substances in overdose create their own unique syndrome of symptoms and that whatever syndrome a substance causes in toxic dose, it can and will elicit a healing response when given in specially prepared small doses to people who have similar symptoms of pathology.

No, that was not what Hahnemann discovered. He discovered, what is already known, that various substances provoke a toxic reaction, which has a repeatable pattern. That it can cure diseases with a similar pattern is, however, Hahnemann's theory. One for which there remains, after 200 years, no conclusive evidence.

*snip*
Despite Hahnemann’s significant contributions to medicine, pharmacy, chemistry, psychiatry, and public health, he remained a humble man. “I do not ask during my lifetime any recognition of the beneficent truth, which I, without any thought of myself, offer. What I have done, I did from higher motives for the world. Non inutilis vixi (I have not lived in vain).”
On the Hahnemann Monument in Washington, DC, are those Latin words. Indeed, Dr. Samuel Hahnemann did not live in vain.

Or, he was perhaps a bit hypocritical. If you read his basic work, the Organon of Medicine, it is far from humble. Indeed about half of the text is devoted to telling the reader how great he, Hahemann, is, and how stupid his detractors are.

But enough of all this theorizing and history massage: Are there any of the concrete point raised you would like to adress, or are you content to drone on with your evasions?

I notice that since the post where you were kind enough to call me a gentleman, you have consistently ignored whatever I have posted. I take it that the gentleman approach is not likely to get me anywhere with you, so I suppose I must consider a gloves off approach from now on. No problem, I have tried that before.

Hans
 

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