[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

[pomeroo]

My apologies for failing to address this point in my last post.
I think we both know that if I had written statements and witnesses in person, I would be conversing with senator's offices etc, long before now.
We each do our bit. At the moment my 'bit' is to highlight Offutt as the take off point for the attack planes. I seem to cut my teeth as I go along. For example, I didn't know about the engine on the pavement until I came on here. More flesh on the bones.

But your falsehoods were exposed by the vastly better-informed and more technically-competent people here. The accurate information about the engine they supplied refuted the myths you promote.

I know the attack planes came from Offutt,

The "attack" planes didn't come from Offutt. Your delusion is fantastic nonsense supported by nothing and contradicted by all available evidence. It is impossiblt to "know" something that isn't true.

I now have to strengthen that knowledge until other agree.

It isn't knowledge, but rather a symptom of your illness. You can't "strengthen" a delusion because nothing supports it.

I work on the principle that I've got the bare bones and the flesh will come along.

You are pounding a square peg into a round hole. Your irrationality and lack of education make you incapable of realizing that painfully obvious fact.

I use things that others on here ridicule.
Every journey has to start somewhere. I use a progressive process that starts with suspicion, which is a 'subjective' state = only I think it. The process then moves on involving things like excessive coincidence, to reasonable suspicion.
Reasonable suspicion now becomes an 'objective' test = I have to persuade a judge that there is enough to proceed. I have to persuade others.

You start from a hatred of America. You cannot accept the fact that this country was the victim of an unprovoked attack, so you stand reality on its head to absolve the jihadists--who, incidentally, are quite proud of their accomplishment and frequently proclaim that pride to the world--and falsely accuse innocent people of a heinous crime.

What better place to do that, to 'cut my teeth', than here amongst confirmed disbelievers?
The first pointer to Offutt is the Celebrity Golf Tournament and my knowledge of human nature that a commander of such a base would, if left to his own devices, pick another day. That's common sense for many reasons.
a) None of your officers or their wives could attend.
b) There's just too much already going on that day.
That alone is enough for me.
From that there is so much more, until I have enough for an 'objective' test.
Which I have.
Candidly, can you see anything suspicious about the celebrity golf tournament being held at such a busy time for Offutt AFB?

Candidly, only a person devoid of critical skills could relate a golf tournament to the jihadist attacks of 9/11/01.

Edited by jmercer: 

Edited out personal attack.

 

[pomeroo]

I am at a total loss as to the relevance of your questions.
Have you any evidence that shows that the plane that attacked tower 2 was flight 175.?
If not, I would like to proceed to Offutt.

Yes, Malcolm, for those of us who are sane, there is convincing evidence:

Remains of the passengers identified by forensic experts;

Transcripts of conversations between air traffic controllers;

Physical evidence recovered at the crash site;

Live videos showing Flight 175 flying into the building

You are forced to pretend that this evidence doesn't exist to maintain your fantasy. But, remember, it IS a fantasy. The evidence you ignore is very, very real.

Edited by jmercer: 

Edited out personal attack.

 

[pomeroo]

I refer you to my previous post, with the addition of one word - ASBESTOS.
are you aware of any connection between the twins and ASBESTOS?

The safest assumption anyone could make is that you know absolutely nothing about this issue:

http://911myths.com/html/losing_money_at_the_wtc_.html

 

[pomeroo]

Why do you keep shooting yourself in the foot?
Page 55 says in the heading NONSTRUCTURAL.

Uh, Malcolm, we all noticed that the people who know what they're talking about were, once again, completely correct and you, who apparently knows nothing about everything, were proved wrong.

Indeed, why do you keep shooting yourself in the foot?

 

[slingblade]

Why do you keep shooting yourself in the foot?
Page 55 says in the heading NONSTRUCTURAL.

Is it possible he meant page 55 of the PDF reader, which is actually page 44 of the document? It does make a difference.

 

[SOMERLED]

10 story and 110 story buildings are both considered "high-rises", so they have the same requirements under the building codes. Interestingly enough, this is one of the probable results of September 11th - there is a movement to develop a "super high-rise" category with extra requirements such as redundant fire risers.

I think the "certificate" you are referring to is the "Certificate of Occupancy", generally granted by the authority having jurisdiction.

Thank you.

 

[SOMERLED]

The links at that site are not working anymore, probably because of expired stories, so after your prompting I went searching again. Yes, there was a Global Guardian exercise that day that involved Offutt. Here's a decent article on it:
http://911review.org/brad.com/wargames/GlobalGuardian.html

I'm sorry for doubting you. I had just noticed a pattern so far, and I figured that if you had said it, then it was almost certainly false.

There was a tour group from the golf tournament who was about to take a tour of the underground command center, and others in the tournament were having breakfast with StratCom's commander. I don't doubt that the commander would have preferred to have the tournament on a different day from one of the exercise days, but the exercise had apparently been rescheduled recently, and I'm sure the golf tournament had its date set long before.

Now, what was your point about it?

My point is suspicion.
Who resheduled the exercises?
As it happens, they were traditionally sheduled for October.
They were held in October for every year up to 2000.
In 2001, they were changed to September.
In 2002, they were changed back to October and have been in October ever since. In all the years these exercises have been going on, they were held in October.
Except in 2001, when they were held in Sept.
I'm not asking for bells ringing just yet, but perhaps the slightest clink.

 

[SOMERLED]

You brought up the color of fireworks smoke. Why? How do fireworks produce colored smoke? Is the color produced due to oxygen levels?

You claim that black smoke is due to low oxygen. I'll ask again, what color smoke is produced when petroleum based products are burned?

I answered your question about the relevance in a post above, which you have once again ignored.

I refer you to my previous post on this matter.

 

[SOMERLED]

Poorly designed or inadequate ventilation can most certainly be a cause of what is commonly known as "sick building syndrome", because when ,especially in new buildings, the build up of contaminants (CO2, VOCs, etc) in the occupied space is not balanced by the removal of contaminated air and the replacement of so-called "fresh air" (the freshness of course is dependent on your location) the occupants can suffer a whole host of symptoms, including dizziness, sore throats, tightness in the chest, etc.

Ventilation requirements are now generally determined by the building codes (IMC Chapter 4) or standards such as ASHRAE 62.1, with various space types requiring differing levels of ventilation, depending on the expected levels of contamination.

Thank you for that. Having to keep the whole building air conditioned, even if occupancy was partial was one of the reasons they had become 'white elephants'.
I really need to find the necessary references, but time constrains me at the moment. Another reason was the ASBESTOS. Another reason was the onset of the internet, which necessitated massive increases in wiring circuitry to handle a computer at every desk. They had to run tubes along the inside of the outside wall and make substantial changes to the central wiring.
Then there was the aluminium cladding, which has started to corrode and was in danger of falling off. Two requests for demolition had been refused. The only demolition allowed was handballing, at a cost of $15 billion.
Before you start, all of that information is no longer available on the web.
There's more, but that's more than enough for me.

 

[SOMERLED]

Both statements are obvious:

1. The WTC towers are fairly modern buildings with airconditioning. Operable windows would be extremely silly, because a lot of people would still open windows on hot days and render the AC system useless in doing so. Other than that, I could imagine all kinds of safety regulations that would make operable windows difficult or at least expensive to implement in a safe way.

2. There were huge holes in the towers that let air in. No further elaboration needed, I hope.

We agree that there were huge holes that let air in.
However, there were no huge holes in the roof to let air out, to set up a through flow of air.
A through flow of air is required to feed oxygen to the fire.

 

[uk_dave]

Malcolm,

I see that you're located in the UK.

May I suggest that, instead of disbelieving everything which is posted on this forum, you actually speak in person to someone who can properly advise you regarding the performance of steel in fire?

Obviously it would benefit you to speak to a structural engineer, but I understand if the cost of obtaining advice from such a person is putting you off (though, what price the 'truth', eh?).

So the next best thing would be to contact the Building Control department at your local authority. Just phone them and ask to speak with the building control officer dealing with your general location. You won't have to be specific. I suggest you try them before 10:00am or after 3:00pm on a weekday as BC officers tend to do site inspections out of those hours.

The BC officer will, I'm sure, draw your attention to Approved Document B of the building regulations, but if you explain that you're considering having an extension built and can't quite decide whether to use a steel frame or a timber frame you will probably find them very forthcoming about the advantages and disadvantages of both of those materials.

Go on, give it a try. You may become enlightened.

Also, I would like you to apply some of that 'common sense' of yours to considering just how strong an airplane actually is. You seem to feel that the wings (unless a reinforced 'bad boy' version) are very flimsy. But just think about it. How does a plane fly? What part of the plane provides the lift? It's the wings, isn't it?

Those flimsy wings lift the whole of that fully loaded (passengers and luggage) fuselage off the ground. Are they really that flimsy?

And on the subject of the fuselage, just consider the landing gear. It takes the weight of the plane and the force of the plane when landing, right? And it's connected to the fuselage. So, is the fuselage really so weak?

Just think about these things malcolm.

This will be my one and only post to you.

 

[SOMERLED]

You brought up the color of fireworks smoke. Why? How do fireworks produce colored smoke? Is the color produced due to oxygen levels?

You claim that black smoke is due to low oxygen. I'll ask again, what color smoke is produced when petroleum based products are burned?

I answered your question about the relevance in a post above, which you have once again ignored.

Nowhere have you answered this question.
Where does this WHITE smoke come from?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atSd7mxgsGY&mode=related&search=

 

[VespaGuy]

First of all, you are mixing materials.
Let's have one material involved, say grass.
In a strong wind = with plenty of oxygen, grass will burn with a light whipish smoke. Where the grass thickens and the wind dies, the grass will give off a darker smoke.

What are you going on about now?

I asked two very simple questions. You are STILL avoiding them. Why, Malcolm? Here they are again. Please stop dancing around them and just answer them already. I'll even number them for you:

1. How do fireworks produce different colored smoke. Remember Malacolm, this was your example.

2. What color smoke will be produced when a petroleum based product is burned?

The same is true for wood and other materials.
That is not to say that some materials, eg tyres, will always give off black smoke because of the material it is made of.

Once again, your sloppy prose masks what you are trying to say? Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying that tires will always give off black smoke becuase of the material it is made of?

This is my last post on this topic.

Of course it is, Malcolm. Whenever you are cornered you jump to another subject. You've been doinng it for 50 pages now.

If you want, we can return to any of the other false claims that you've made and ignored responses. Remember "Verb Transative"? How about "9/11 was a cloudy day?". How about "Flight engineers on every commercial flight"? There are plenty of others.

 

[SOMERLED]

Candidly, only a person devoid of critical skills could relate a golf tournament to the jihadist attacks of 9/11/01.

Edited by jmercer: 

Edited out personal attack.

You could not be more wrong.
I have more family in America than you do, I am quite adequately educated and I am right with regard to 175 Not hitting the south tower.
I have said this many times, show the one piece of positive evidence that the plane that attacked tower 2 was 175. If the FBI can identify a van from the bacl axle as at OKC, then there must be a myriad of serial numbers on plane engine - one will do. As will the disclosure of so much more evidence connected with 9/11.

 

[SOMERLED]

What are you going on about now?

I asked two very simple questions. You are STILL avoiding them. Why, Malcolm? Here they are again. Please stop dancing around them and just answer them already. I'll even number them for you:

1. How do fireworks produce different colored smoke. Remember Malacolm, this was your example.

2. What color smoke will be produced when a petroleum based product is burned?




Once again, your sloppy prose masks what you are trying to say? Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying that tires will always give off black smoke becuase of the material it is made of?



Of course it is, Malcolm. Whenever you are cornered you jump to another subject. You've been doinng it for 50 pages now.

If you want, we can return to any of the other false claims that you've made and ignored responses. Remember "Verb Transative"? How about "9/11 was a cloudy day?". How about "Flight engineers on every commercial flight"? There are plenty of others.

Kindly tell me all you know about smoke.
Then, if you don't mind tell me where the white smoke in the south tower came from.
Thanking you in advance.

 

[cloudshipsrule]

However, there were no huge holes in the roof to let air out, to set up a through flow of air.
A through flow of air is required to feed oxygen to the fire.

As a trained member of a fire brigade I'll tell you this based on my limited knowledge. A house fire gets hot enough to break the windows in the house.

Do you not think the fire could have gotten hot enough in the towers to break windows in addition to THE WINDOWS THAT WERE ALREADY SHATTERED BY THE PLANE'S IMPACT?

 

[VespaGuy]

Kindly tell me all you know about smoke.
Then, if you don't mind tell me where the white smoke in the south tower came from.
Thanking you in advance.

Still avoiding the question, Malcolm? Stop playing games. I'm sure you know the answer quite well, but refuse to answer it because it shows how your "black smoke/ low oxygen" argument is useless.

So, for the 10th time, Malcolm...
What color smoke is produced when a petroleum based product is burned?

Don't tell me about grass. Don't tell me about white smoke. Don't tell me about Offutt.

Just answer the question. Keep in mind that "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

 

[AZCat]

Thank you for that. Having to keep the whole building air conditioned, even if occupancy was partial was one of the reasons they had become 'white elephants'.
I really need to find the necessary references, but time constrains me at the moment. Another reason was the ASBESTOS. Another reason was the onset of the internet, which necessitated massive increases in wiring circuitry to handle a computer at every desk. They had to run tubes along the inside of the outside wall and make substantial changes to the central wiring.
Then there was the aluminium cladding, which has started to corrode and was in danger of falling off. Two requests for demolition had been refused. The only demolition allowed was handballing, at a cost of $15 billion.
Before you start, all of that information is no longer available on the web.
There's more, but that's more than enough for me.

(emphasis mine)

This is incorrect. Whatever your source for the information about the air conditioning had it wrong. Even though they were designed in the 1960's, it was possible to air condition one part of a building while not air conditioning another. The building is broken up into "zones", with separate air handlers responsible for each zone. These are turned off and on depending on occupancy. Since ventilation is only required in occupied zones, it is not a problem that fresh air is not reaching these spaces - there is no-one there to suffer the consequences of stale air.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Why is anyone trying to convince this guy about anything? He has no power. He has no authority. He is a doubting Thomas without shred of substance to his outrageous claims. If he wants to present something of value, then great. Otherwise, trying to convince him that the EBC is correct is a waste of time and effort. Let him live in his delusions.

 

[A W Smith]

MK, You have no idea of what you are talking about

I'm mystified as to how anybody can look at the facade of one of the twins and not notice it.

the real deal.. corrugated steel