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[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

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VespaGuy said:
Of course you are. You've been avoiding these questions for at least 6 pages now. Let me refresh your memory.

You made the claim that the fires in the towers were not hot enough and were oxygen starved since the smoke was black. You were shown countless examples where the color of smoke is not based on oxygen levels, but based on the material that is burning.

Here's your reply when you were shown fires burning with black smoke which were clearly not oxygen starved:



So, I will ask you again, how do fireworks produce different colors of smoke? Is it because of the oxygen levels or because of the material that is burning?

In the same reply you contined...


Again you claim that the darker smoke means the fire is less severe. So I will ask again, what color smoke will be produced when petroleum based items, like those found in an office, burn?



I am addressing your earlier claims. And have been doing so for 6 pages.



And pretend that your earlier claims haven't been debunked? Nope.
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First of all, you are mixing materials.
Let's have one material involved, say grass.
In a strong wind = with plenty of oxygen, grass will burn with a light whipish smoke. Where the grass thickens and the wind dies, the grass will give off a darker smoke. The same is true for wood and other materials.
That is not to say that some materials, eg tyres, will always give off black smoke because of the material it is made of.
This is my last post on this topic.
Now tell me where this white smoke comes from,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atSd7mxgsGY&mode=related&search=
 
Metullus said:
Okay. I have my own photos, construction documents and as-builts, some of which I might be able to post if I get my client's permission. In the meantime you might check out:
Here's one example.
And another.
And another.
And yet another.
Oh, one more...
A design detail.
During construction.
Structural timber, structural steel, & glulams...
STeel & glulams...
Wow!
Pretty picures...
How to...
Leisure Complex, Cardiff
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Cool pics. I actually designed wood and steel trusses for years. Glu-lams beams (and trusses) are much more common nowadays, and yes Malcolm, they are commonly used in place of structural steel. And for non-exposed beams, many builders use LVLs (that's wood too, Malcolm) instead of steel.
 
Metullus said:
Okay. I have my own photos, construction documents and as-builts, some of which I might be able to post if I get my client's permission. In the meantime you might check out:
Here's one example.
And another.
And another.
And yet another.
Oh, one more...
A design detail.
During construction.
Structural timber, structural steel, & glulams...
STeel & glulams...
Wow!
Pretty picures...
How to...
Leisure Complex, Cardiff
Click to expand...

Thank you for such a comprehensive reply. I accept that builders incorporate wood and steel. I do not accept that any builder would start a building with timber structural beams and then lay steel beams on top of that.
The photo is a fake. All the poster need do, is to provide the necessary references to refute my claim.
 
AZCat said:
10 story and 110 story buildings are both considered "high-rises", so they have the same requirements under the building codes. Interestingly enough, this is one of the probable results of September 11th - there is a movement to develop a "super high-rise" category with extra requirements such as redundant fire risers.

I think the "certificate" you are referring to is the "Certificate of Occupancy", generally granted by the authority having jurisdiction.
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Are you aware that precisely the opposite was true with regard to the twins. They were granted remarkable exemptions. For example, plasterboard walls for the stairwells instead of concrete.
 
CurtC said:
But every modern high-rise building uses the same ventilation (via the HVAC system). None have windows. Are you saying that every modern office building is a white elephant?

Oh no, I work on the 10th floor of a modern building. I guess I should be wary of the landlord crashing planes into my office!
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You must have missed my reply to your assertion that Offutt wasn't busy on 9/11. My reply was as follows. Would you kindly respond.
The piece below is taken from this web address. It's just over halfway down a very telling page.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/t...itaryExercises
Offutt Air Force Base control tower during Global Guardian ’98 [Source: Jeffery S. Viano]As the 9/11 attacks are taking place, a large military training exercise called Global Guardian is said to be “in full swing.” It has been going on since the previous week. [Omaha World-Herald, 2/27/2002; Omaha World-Herald, 9/10/2002] Global Guardian is an annual exercise sponsored by US Strategic Command (Stratcom) in cooperation with US Space Command and NORAD. One military author defines Stratcom as “the single US military command responsible for the day-to-day readiness of America’s nuclear forces.” [Arkin, 2005, pp. 59] Global Guardian is a global readiness exercise involving all Stratcom forces and aims to test Stratcom’s ability to fight a nuclear war. It is one of many “practice Armageddons” that the US military routinely stages. [Bulletin of
 
malcolm kirkman said:
I use the term air conditioning in what I considered to be it's accepted sense. To me hat is a source of clean air rather than heated air.
Eventually your "no one would be able to breathe" statement would be correct. I would say headachey rather than unconscious after one days work.
After a week, I think people would be totally exhausted and fainting in the stale air.
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Poorly designed or inadequate ventilation can most certainly be a cause of what is commonly known as "sick building syndrome", because when ,especially in new buildings, the build up of contaminants (CO2, VOCs, etc) in the occupied space is not balanced by the removal of contaminated air and the replacement of so-called "fresh air" (the freshness of course is dependent on your location) the occupants can suffer a whole host of symptoms, including dizziness, sore throats, tightness in the chest, etc.

Ventilation requirements are now generally determined by the building codes (IMC Chapter 4) or standards such as ASHRAE 62.1, with various space types requiring differing levels of ventilation, depending on the expected levels of contamination.
 
VespaGuy said:
Cool pics. I actually designed wood and steel trusses for years. Glu-lams beams (and trusses) are much more common nowadays, and yes Malcolm, they are commonly used in place of structural steel. And for non-exposed beams, many builders use LVLs (that's wood too, Malcolm) instead of steel.
Click to expand...

You can build in wood, where wood is plentiful.
You can build in concrete, where sand is plentiful.
You can build in bricks, where clay is plentiful.
You can build in steel.
Wood burns, steel does not.
 
Dave_46 said:
This can be addressed by a previous post of yours







I first saw this photograph, or one very like it about thirty years ago. It is already "out to the world".

Dave
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You'll have no difficulty finding some references for it then, will you?
 
malcolm kirkman said:
You must have missed my reply to your assertion that Offutt wasn't busy on 9/11. My reply was as follows. Would you kindly respond.
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The links at that site are not working anymore, probably because of expired stories, so after your prompting I went searching again. Yes, there was a Global Guardian exercise that day that involved Offutt. Here's a decent article on it:
http://911review.org/brad.com/wargames/GlobalGuardian.html

I'm sorry for doubting you. I had just noticed a pattern so far, and I figured that if you had said it, then it was almost certainly false.

There was a tour group from the golf tournament who was about to take a tour of the underground command center, and others in the tournament were having breakfast with StratCom's commander. I don't doubt that the commander would have preferred to have the tournament on a different day from one of the exercise days, but the exercise had apparently been rescheduled recently, and I'm sure the golf tournament had its date set long before.

Now, what was your point about it?
 
malcolm kirkman said:
You can build in wood, where wood is plentiful.
You can build in concrete, where sand is plentiful.
You can build in bricks, where clay is plentiful.
You can build in steel.
Wood burns, steel does not.
Click to expand...

You brought up the color of fireworks smoke. Why? How do fireworks produce colored smoke? Is the color produced due to oxygen levels?

You claim that black smoke is due to low oxygen. I'll ask again, what color smoke is produced when petroleum based products are burned?

I answered your question about the relevance in a post above, which you have once again ignored.
 
cloudshipsrule said:
You mean like this?

http://www.sabattusantiquemall.com/images/Construction/beam_column.jpg

Try again.
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You show a beam on a pillar. Built like that for cost effectiveness.
The fake photo shows steel beams on a wooden beam.
In order for the steel to bend as shown, it would have to be heated at the point of contact with the wooden beam. Such steel as that thickness would require a good few hours of intense flame, right at the place where the wood is. That makes it impossible, because wood burns and such intense flame for so long would have seen off the wood long before.
Now find some references for the authenticity of that fake photo. Showing mixes of steel and wood doesn't affect the authenticity or falsehood of that photo. Kindly stop prevaricating and find some references for that photo.
 
 
AZCat said:
Malcom is correct that in a building such as the WTC towers, ventilation is provided mechanically via the HVAC system, as opposed to natural ventilation (such as operable windows). The towers, however, had their building envelope compromised considerably by the collisions and outside air was able to ingress through the new "openings".
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H'ethetheth said:
No offence, but I will assume this comment is not meant for me, because this all seems rather obvious. :D
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malcolm kirkman said:
Obvious in what regard?
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Both statements are obvious:

1. The WTC towers are fairly modern buildings with airconditioning. Operable windows would be extremely silly, because a lot of people would still open windows on hot days and render the AC system useless in doing so. Other than that, I could imagine all kinds of safety regulations that would make operable windows difficult or at least expensive to implement in a safe way.

2. There were huge holes in the towers that let air in. No further elaboration needed, I hope.
 
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