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[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

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VespaGuy said:
Malcolm

You have a habit of switching topics rather quickly and ignoring questions about the things you post, especially when they seem to prove you wrong.

Can you please answer these two simple questions?



Thank you
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I am at a total loss as to the relevance of your questions.
Have you any evidence that shows that the plane that attacked tower 2 was flight 175.?
If not, I would like to proceed to Offutt.
 
malcolm kirkman said:
Inthis case, yes the stairwells and the elevator shafts were not sources of either clean or fresh air.
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moving goal posts now? only you are mentioning clean/fresh air. We are claiming that "sealed' is a misnomer as AIR could move freely throughout the entire two towers (and the Empire STate building) with ease. There were miles of ventilation shafts and units throughout each building. Elevator shafts provided a way for air to circulate through the building and of course stairwells as well.

I have ben in the south tower which was more than five storeys tall.
Both the stairwells and the lift shafts were in the centre of the tower. There could have been no through flow of air in either a stairwell or a lift shaft.
What is 'trolling'?
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If that were true, Malcolm, no one would be able to work aboe the 10th floor. Without "air" as you claim, no one would be able to breathe.

Air conditioning doesn't provide "fresh air or clean air". Its a means to cool the temperatures down.


Edited by chillzero: 
Moderated thread
 
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AZCat said:
"Sealed" is a misnomer, really. It is difficult to completely seal a building envelope. All operable penetrations (such as doors) will allow some ingress/egress of air (depending on how the building is pressurized) and since most buildings (with a few notable exceptions) are designed to allow the passage of occupants from inside to outside it is impossible to design them to be completely sealed.

The Biosphere 2, IIRC, was designed with a 100% sealed envelope, but I don't know how well it actually performed. They had some problems and had to stop the experiment prematurely, I know.
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I use the term 'sealed' with regard to the fact that for normal working circumstances, the building is reliant upon air conditioning. I did read somewhere that a building that was reliant upon air conditioning was classed as 'sealed'. I think the term is used loosely and not as with the likes of a submarine. Using the word 'sealed' loosely, would you agree.
If not, then let us both simply agree that the building was dependant upon air conditioning. In other words, no air conditioning = no (health and safety type) certificate. I do know that two such certificates had been refused and then temporary extensions allowed.
 
Regnad Kcin said:
Except, as I've articulated, you're incorrect.Except you're incorrect, as I've articulated.Except they were in no way, shape or form "white elephants." That is an imaginary construction, propagated by the "truth movement." It is a lie.

Architects and engineers with far, far more qualifications and expertise than all of the "truth movement" put together created the Twins, to this day considered a marvel. Air management, circulation, and conditioning were taken care of with engineering ease.

Moreover, during their lifetime the buildings enjoyed a high occupancy rate, negating any claim to "white elephant" status.Of course not.
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I refer you to my previous post, with the addition of one word - ASBESTOS.
are you aware of any connection between the twins and ASBESTOS?
 
malcolm kirkman said:
If the air conditioning broke down, you would immediately be breathing in stale air. It's quoted as one of the reasons why the twins were 'white elephants'.
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But every modern high-rise building uses the same ventilation (via the HVAC system). None have windows. Are you saying that every modern office building is a white elephant?

Oh no, I work on the 10th floor of a modern building. I guess I should be wary of the landlord crashing planes into my office!
 
I use the term 'sealed' with regard to the fact that for normal working circumstances, the building is reliant upon air conditioning.
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Normal, yes. However, as soon as the plane put a large hole in the building and broke numerous windows the 'sealing' went out the window. (Pun intended.)
 
malcolm kirkman said:
It's a fake, a joke. I hope that you can now see this.
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The only reason why you think it's a fake is because it threatens your contention that steel performs better than wood in a fire.

Why ? Because steel is invincible ?

Is it another one of those "common sense" things ?

Did you check with those experts, yet ?
 
Arus808 said:
moving goal posts now? only you are mentioning clean/fresh air. We are claiming that "sealed' is a misnomer as AIR could move freely throughout the entire two towers (and the Empire STate building) with ease. There were miles of ventilation shafts and units throughout each building. Elevator shafts provided a way for air to circulate through the building and of course stairwells as well.

If that were true, Malcolm, no one would be able to work aboe the 10th floor. Without "air" as you claim, no one would be able to breathe.

Air conditioning doesn't provide "fresh air or clean air". Its a means to cool the temperatures down.


Edited by chillzero: 
Moderated thread
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I use the term air conditioning in what I considered to be it's accepted sense. To me hat is a source of clean air rather than heated air.
Eventually your "no one would be able to breathe" statement would be correct. I would say headachey rather than unconscious after one days work.
After a week, I think people would be totally exhausted and fainting in the stale air.
 
malcolm kirkman said:
There was no ventilation, none at all. That's why I say the building was sealed. Forget the foyer, once you got upstairs, the only source of fresh/clean air was the air conditioning.
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Which, itself, is ventilation, no ?

If the air conditioning broke down, you would immediately be breathing in stale air.
Click to expand...

That is physically impossible.

are you aware of any connection between the twins and ASBESTOS?
Click to expand...

Yes. Did you read up on it ?

What is 'trolling'?
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Trolling is posting in a way that provokes responses, usually rather violent ones, for the sole purpose of watching those responses unfold, as opposed to actually participating in a debate. Pulling one's chain, I think, is the expression.

I use the term 'sealed' with regard to the fact that for normal working circumstances, the building is reliant upon air conditioning. I did read somewhere that a building that was reliant upon air conditioning was classed as 'sealed'. I think the term is used loosely and not as with the likes of a submarine.
Click to expand...

And THAT is called backtracking.
 
Arus808 said:
moving goal posts now? only you are mentioning clean/fresh air. We are claiming that "sealed' is a misnomer as AIR could move freely throughout the entire two towers (and the Empire STate building) with ease. There were miles of ventilation shafts and units throughout each building. Elevator shafts provided a way for air to circulate through the building and of course stairwells as well.

If that were true, Malcolm, no one would be able to work aboe the 10th floor. Without "air" as you claim, no one would be able to breathe.

Air conditioning doesn't provide "fresh air or clean air". Its a means to cool the temperatures down.


Edited by chillzero: 
Moderated thread
Click to expand...

From the engineering perspective, Air Conditioning is literally that--conditioning the air for use, to ensure freshness, humidity, and temperature. HVAC engineers study this, and apply it.
They provide ductwork for allowing air into the building--continually, not just through doors and windows. They treat it by adjusting the temperature, humidity, and by filtering. Please note--this is a continuous process. if the mechanical system (fans, etc) break down, it doesn't just stop. Warm air rises--and the heat load in any building guarantees that the air will get warmer as it enters a building (Cooling is required even in the coldest weather, thanks to all the people, lights, computers, and other equipment)--and thus it will exit through the upper vents. There is no mechanical blockage, so air will continue entering the building, through the intakes--it just won't get conditioned.
Add an intense heat source, such as a fire, and the resultant broken windows--the air will come in even quicker. Add a great gaping hole where an airplane came through the side of the building, and you have a tremendous addition to the inflow of air, and the intensity of the fire will increase, especially if it is not fought (pumps failed due to lack of electricity/ pipe breakage) and it breaks out more windows. The building acts like a big chimney (try the experiment some time--with a fire in your fireplace, take a page of newspaper, loosely crumple it, light it, and put it as high up the chimney as you can. Listen to the roar, and watch the fire get hotter down below)
the phrase "self eating watermelon" begins to make sense at this point.
 
malcolm kirkman said:
I use the term air conditioning in what I considered to be it's accepted sense. To me hat is a source of clean air rather than heated air.
Eventually your "no one would be able to breathe" statement would be correct. I would say headachey rather than unconscious after one days work.
After a week, I think people would be totally exhausted and fainting in the stale air.
Click to expand...

So heated air cannot be clean? What happens in the winter if one works in a tall modern office building? Do they just put up with the cold?
 
CurtC said:
But every modern high-rise building uses the same ventilation (via the HVAC system). None have windows. Are you saying that every modern office building is a white elephant?

Oh no, I work on the 10th floor of a modern building. I guess I should be wary of the landlord crashing planes into my office!
Click to expand...
There is a difference between 10 and 110 storeys.
Although I'm sure that if you attempted to let out a ten storey office building with sealed windows, that did not have air conditioning, then you wouldn't get the necessary (Health and Safety or whatever) certificate from the relevant local authorities.
 
malcolm kirkman said:
No, I say it's a fake.
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Yes, you've said that already. But what you have failed to do is explain why you think it is a fake, and how you arrived at that conclusion. Without discussing the method by which you came to that conclusion, your conclusion is not relevant in and of itself.
 
malcolm kirkman said:
There is a difference between 10 and 110 storeys.
Although I'm sure that if you attempted to let out a ten storey office building with sealed windows, that did not have air conditioning, then you wouldn't get the necessary (Health and Safety or whatever) certificate from the relevant local authorities.
Click to expand...

10 story and 110 story buildings are both considered "high-rises", so they have the same requirements under the building codes. Interestingly enough, this is one of the probable results of September 11th - there is a movement to develop a "super high-rise" category with extra requirements such as redundant fire risers.

I think the "certificate" you are referring to is the "Certificate of Occupancy", generally granted by the authority having jurisdiction.
 
malcolm kirkman said:
I am at a total loss as to the relevance of your questions.
Click to expand...

Of course you are. You've been avoiding these questions for at least 6 pages now. Let me refresh your memory.

You made the claim that the fires in the towers were not hot enough and were oxygen starved since the smoke was black. You were shown countless examples where the color of smoke is not based on oxygen levels, but based on the material that is burning.

Here's your reply when you were shown fires burning with black smoke which were clearly not oxygen starved:

malcolm kirkman said:
Fireworks will give you smoke of any colour.
Click to expand...

So, I will ask you again, how do fireworks produce different colors of smoke? Is it because of the oxygen levels or because of the material that is burning?

In the same reply you contined...
As a general rule, the darker the smoke of the same material, means that the fire is becoming less severe. In this case, certainly due to oxygen starvation.
Click to expand...

Again you claim that the darker smoke means the fire is less severe. So I will ask again, what color smoke will be produced when petroleum based items, like those found in an office, burn?

Have you any evidence that shows that the plane that attacked tower 2 was flight 175.?
Click to expand...

I am addressing your earlier claims. And have been doing so for 6 pages.

If not, I would like to proceed to Offutt.
Click to expand...

And pretend that your earlier claims haven't been debunked? Nope.
 
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rwguinn said:
From the engineering perspective, Air Conditioning is literally that--conditioning the air for use, to ensure freshness, humidity, and temperature. HVAC engineers study this, and apply it.
They provide ductwork for allowing air into the building--continually, not just through doors and windows. They treat it by adjusting the temperature, humidity, and by filtering. Please note--this is a continuous process. if the mechanical system (fans, etc) break down, it doesn't just stop. Warm air rises--and the heat load in any building guarantees that the air will get warmer as it enters a building (Cooling is required even in the coldest weather, thanks to all the people, lights, computers, and other equipment)--and thus it will exit through the upper vents. There is no mechanical blockage, so air will continue entering the building, through the intakes--it just won't get conditioned.
Add an intense heat source, such as a fire, and the resultant broken windows--the air will come in even quicker. Add a great gaping hole where an airplane came through the side of the building, and you have a tremendous addition to the inflow of air, and the intensity of the fire will increase, especially if it is not fought (pumps failed due to lack of electricity/ pipe breakage) and it breaks out more windows. The building acts like a big chimney (try the experiment some time--with a fire in your fireplace, take a page of newspaper, loosely crumple it, light it, and put it as high up the chimney as you can. Listen to the roar, and watch the fire get hotter down below)
the phrase "self eating watermelon" begins to make sense at this point.
Click to expand...

A chimney has a hole in the top. Block that hole and you will have no graught and the fire will smoke rather than burn brightly.
Which is precisely what happened on 9/11. I am mystified as to how the south tower with it's waterproofed roof could be likened to a chimney.
 
Redtail said:
So heated air cannot be clean? What happens in the winter if one works in a tall modern office building? Do they just put up with the cold?
Click to expand...

Clean air first. Cool air second. There are many ways of heating a room.
Warm air can be difficult to keep germ free.
 
Corsair 115 said:
Yes, you've said that already. But what you have failed to do is explain why you think it is a fake, and how you arrived at that conclusion. Without discussing the method by which you came to that conclusion, your conclusion is not relevant in and of itself.
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This was my response in post 2060,
I say the photo is a total fake. I accept that you don't necessarily know this.
Apart from such a set of circumstances being ludicrous. You could never heat steel up to bending point without seeing off that beam hours sooner - never.
I know it is a fake for any number of other reasons. No one would build a property in such a way. You build in timber or you build in steel. You dont mix and match. There are other reasons, such as planning permission would never be granted etc. It's a fake, a joke. I hope that you can now see this.
 
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