[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

[SpitfireIX]

No, I say it's a fake.
Let's have it on thr front page of Popular Mechanics.
I have absolutely no intention of engaging in such a ludicrous debate.
Put the photo out to the world in say the MSM, that would be nice.

You claim the photo is fake. The burden of proof is on you. Please provide some proof, other than your apparent argument from incredulity, which is merely a logical fallacy. If you can't provide any real proof then withdraw the claim.

 

[gumboot]

Your words,
"...as a rule, windows in modern skyscrapers do not open."
This would make them sealed units would it not?

No, it would mean their windows don't open.

-Gumboot

 

[SOMERLED]

You claim the photo is fake. The burden of proof is on you. Please provide some proof, other than your apparent argument from incredulity, which is merely a logical fallacy. If you can't provide any real proof then withdraw the claim.

The onus is on whoever put the photo up not me.
Where is the building?
What newspaper did the photo come from etc.

 

[SOMERLED]

No, it would mean their windows don't open.

-Gumboot

If the windows don't open, then how does air get to the office workers?
The only possible explanation is air conditioning and I'm sure you know it.
The only source of air is via the air conditioning, the building is sealed.

 

[gumboot]

If the windows don't open, then how does air get to the office workers?
The only possible explanation is air conditioning and I'm sure you know it.
The only source of air is via the air conditioning, the building is sealed.

And how do people get in and out?

-Gumboot

 

[VespaGuy]

Malcolm

You mentioned the colored smoke of fireworks earlier. Can you please tell us what causes the different colors?

Also, What color smoke is produced when petroleum based products burn?

 

[SOMERLED]

And how do people get in and out?

-Gumboot

You're being silly now.
The air that circulates at ground level etc, cannot possibly keep thosands of people in clean air.
Unless you can raise the standard of your posts, you can't really expect me to keep responding.

 

[CurtC]

Candidly, can you see anything suspicious about the celebrity golf tournament being held at such a busy time for Offutt AFB?

September 11th was not a busy day at Offutt, other than the golf tournament. Is there a reason you think that it was? Please support your assertion instead of just stating your ill-informed opinion.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Also, due to wood's natural ability to insulate, wood may be more acceptable than unprotected steel in fire resistant assemblies.

http://www.dricon.com/fireperformance.shtml

In the fire resistance study, researchers at IRC first compared non-load-bearing steel-framed walls with walls constructed with wood studs in a standard test, exposing the assemblies to heat in a propane-fired vertical furnace with one side of the wall exposed to fire. Preliminary findings showed that there was no significant difference in the response of assemblies using steel studs and those using wood studs.

http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/ci/v1no4/v1no4_20_e.html

Protection with Timber​

In some countries, timber has been used to provide fire resistance. The timber protects the steel
by providing insulation, and charring of wood also assists in providing a thermal barrier. Work by
Twilt and Witteveen​

​

10 discusses fire tests and installation details for protecting steel columns with
timber. Designers using timber should check to ensure that the steel structure is fully enclosed
by the wood, that the wood is firmly secured in place, and that the wood is seasoned in order to
limit or prevent shrinkage and cracking, which could reduce the ability of the timber to control​

heat transfer to the structure

http://www.bfrl.nist.gov/pdf/GCR04_872.pdf
The surface of the wood chars. Until the charred areas are exposed to sufficient heat to burn the char, the remainder of the wood is both insulated and protected from direct flame. Steel has no such protection, if the surface is exposed to heat it affect all of the steel.

I have witnessed, first hand, how a 4x4 beam stopped the spread of a fire that was inside of a house wall, preventing it from burning up the wall and into the attic/roof area.

Now, show what criteria you used to claim the photo was fact. Your personal incredulity has no value in the assessment of the photo's authenticity.

 

[gumboot]

You're being silly now.
The air that circulates at ground level etc, cannot possibly keep thosands of people in clean air.
Unless you can raise the standard of your posts, you can't really expect me to keep responding.

Who said anything about clean air? We're talking about the buildings being sealed. If they're sealed no air can get in, clean or otherwise.

I tell you what, I'll raise the "standard" of my posts when you start offering some factual content.

-Gumboot

 

[SOMERLED]

September 11th was not a busy day at Offutt, other than the golf tournament. Is there a reason you think that it was? Please support your assertion instead of just stating your ill-informed opinion.

The piece below is taken from this web address. It's just over halfway down a very telling page.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/...te_911_timeline&before_9/11=militaryExercises
Offutt Air Force Base control tower during Global Guardian ’98 [Source: Jeffery S. Viano]As the 9/11 attacks are taking place, a large military training exercise called Global Guardian is said to be “in full swing.” It has been going on since the previous week. [Omaha World-Herald, 2/27/2002; Omaha World-Herald, 9/10/2002] Global Guardian is an annual exercise sponsored by US Strategic Command (Stratcom) in cooperation with US Space Command and NORAD. One military author defines Stratcom as “the single US military command responsible for the day-to-day readiness of America’s nuclear forces.” [Arkin, 2005, pp. 59] Global Guardian is a global readiness exercise involving all Stratcom forces and aims to test Stratcom’s ability to fight a nuclear war. It is one of many “practice Armageddons” that the US military routinely stages. [Bulletin of

 

[Belz...]

I know the attack planes came from Offutt

You don't "know" this. You assume it because it fits with your conclusion.

I use things that others on here ridicule.

That should make you very concerned.

Every journey has to start somewhere. I use a progressive process that starts with suspicion, which is a 'subjective' state = only I think it. The process then moves on involving things like excessive coincidence, to reasonable suspicion.

We call that process "circular reasoning".

The first pointer to Offutt is the Celebrity Golf Tournament and my knowledge of human nature that a commander of such a base would, if left to his own devices, pick another day.

We call that an "assumption". Knowledge of human nature is not evidence of a particular event.

That's common sense for many reasons.

There's that flat-earth common sense, again.

Candidly, can you see anything suspicious about the celebrity golf tournament being held at such a busy time for Offutt AFB?

Why should we ?

 

[Belz...]

The onus is on whoever put the photo up not me.

No, it isn't. People know how wood performs in a fire as opposed to steel. We show you a picture of this, and you claim it is false. Your onus.

If the windows don't open, then how does air get to the office workers?
The only possible explanation is air conditioning and I'm sure you know it.
The only source of air is via the air conditioning, the building is sealed.

Malcolm. If air gets IN and OUT via air conditioning, then the building is NOT sealed.

You're being silly now.
The air that circulates at ground level etc, cannot possibly keep thosands of people in clean air.

The point is, the building isn't SEALED.

 

[Slayhamlet]

http://www.dricon.com/fireperformance.shtml
http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/ci/v1no4/v1no4_20_e.html
http://www.bfrl.nist.gov/pdf/GCR04_872.pdf[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
The surface of the wood chars. Until the charred areas are exposed to sufficient heat to burn the char, the remainder of the wood is both insulated and protected from direct flame. Steel has no such protection, if the surface is exposed to heat it affect all of the steel.

I have witnessed, first hand, how a 4x4 beam stopped the spread of a fire that was inside of a house wall, preventing it from burning up the wall and into the attic/roof area.

Now, show what criteria you used to claim the photo was fact. Your personal incredulity has no value in the assessment of the photo's authenticity.

Here's another:

In houses, restaurants, churches, museums, and commercial structures, timber trusses offer advantages over other types of trusses or conventional framing. As illustrated by the many aging covered bridges standing today, timbers can withstand weathering if sheltered from precipitation or treated with preservatives. Heavy timbers can have a fire resistance of up to an hour-better than steel trusses, which lose their strength in high temperatures.

Architectural Record

 

[slyjoe]

The photograph is a crude fake. The pertinent quetion is,
Why should you post a knowingly fake document?

I posted the picture, and this is extremely insulting to me. I would NOT post a knowingly fake document. ...

Edited by Darat: 

Content removed - Moderated thread

The onus is on whoever put the photo up not me.
Where is the building?
What newspaper did the photo come from etc.

What difference does it make where the building is? Why do you assume it is a newspaper? It doesn't sound very intelligent to assume it came from a newspaper when there is clearly a figure number on it.

Exactly what evidence would you accept that it wasn't a fake? You have not accepted any other evidence provided to you in this thread. And please answer the questions posted to you without condescending insults.

 

[Slayhamlet]

By "air conditioning" does Malcolm mean ventilation? I've only ever heard the term "air conditioning" used for air cooling systems, not for basic ventilation. Is it different outside America?

 

[H'ethetheth]

By "air conditioning" does Malcolm mean ventilation? I've only ever heard the term "air conditioning" used for air cooling systems, not for basic ventilation. Is it different outside America?

I think of airconditioning as temperature controlled ventilation, but then I'm a Dutchman.
But as I'm also into rocket science, consider the following: In an aircraft's AC system ambient air of about -50deg C is compressed in the compressor stages of the engines, thereby heating it up to about 300 deg C. It's then cooled by leading it through a heat exchanger and consequently expanded, further cooling it to about 3 deg C to enter the cabin as nice cool air.
So is at an air cooling or heating system?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

If the windows don't open, then how does air get to the office workers?
The only possible explanation is air conditioning and I'm sure you know it.
The only source of air is via the air conditioning, the building is sealed.

Air sources included:

• numerous constantly opening exterior doors at the lobby level
• wide lower level passageways from and to the subway terminal (including past the shopping mall)
• rooftop portals to the exterior observation deck, helipad, etc.
• loading docks
• parking garages
• ventilation ducts
• air conditioning ducts

Then there's natural circulation of these fresh air sources through numerous elevator shafts and cars, escalators, staircases, walkways, and constantly opening (and closing) doorways to offices and other work areas.

Also, as has been pointed out to you, both infernos were provided adequate air by way of the aircraft entry points, as well as the subsequent exterior wall and window destruction.

As I mentioned before, in no way, shape or form was either Twin Tower "sealed." You are incorrect.

 

[CptColumbo]

Here's a video of a recreation of the famous "Sherman's Neckties" from the American Civil War. Steel rail tracks are heated then bent around a nearby tree.

 

[SOMERLED]

I posted the picture, and this is extremely insulting to me. I would NOT post a knowingly fake document. ...

Edited by Darat: 

Content removed - Moderated thread

What difference does it make where the building is? Why do you assume it is a newspaper? It doesn't sound very intelligent to assume it came from a newspaper when there is clearly a figure number on it.

Exactly what evidence would you accept that it wasn't a fake? You have not accepted any other evidence provided to you in this thread. And please answer the questions posted to you without condescending insults.

I say the photo is a total fake. I accept that you don't necessarily know this.
Apart from such a set of circumstances being ludicrous. You could never heat steel up to bending point without seeing off that beam hours sooner - never.
I know it is a fake for any number of other reasons. No one would build a property in such a way. You build in timber or you build in steel. You dont mix and match. There are other reasons, such as planning permission would never be granted etc. It's a fake, a joke. I hope that you can now see this.