[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

[AZCat]

I think of airconditioning as temperature controlled ventilation, but then I'm a Dutchman.
But as I'm also into rocket science, consider the following: In an aircraft's AC system ambient air of about -50deg C is compressed in the compressor stages of the engines, thereby heating it up to about 300 deg C. It's then cooled by leading it through a heat exchanger and consequently expanded, further cooling it to about 3 deg C to enter the cabin as nice cool air.
So is at an air cooling or heating system?

It's more than temperature controlled ventilation - it's controlling the temperature of the space by heating or cooling the air. It can also involve controlling the humidity of the space (by humidifying or de-humidifying the air), but not all systems involve that. Not all methods of climate control involve "air conditioning". Some use radiant heating, for example.

Malcom is correct that in a building such as the WTC towers, ventilation is provided mechanically via the HVAC system, as opposed to natural ventilation (such as operable windows). The towers, however, had their building envelope compromised considerably by the collisions and outside air was able to ingress through the new "openings".

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I say the photo is a total fake. I accept that you don't necessarily know this.
Apart from such a set of circumstances being ludicrous. You could never heat steel up to bending point without seeing off that beam hours sooner - never.
I know it is a fake for any number of other reasons. No one would build a property in such a way. You build in timber or you build in steel. You dont mix and match. There are other reasons, such as planning permission would never be granted etc. It's a fake, a joke. I hope that you can now see this.

The links in this post say you're wrong. Again.

 

[SOMERLED]

By "air conditioning" does Malcolm mean ventilation? I've only ever heard the term "air conditioning" used for air cooling systems, not for basic ventilation. Is it different outside America?

There was no ventilation, none at all. That's why I say the building was sealed. Forget the foyer, once you got upstairs, the only source of fresh/clean air was the air conditioning. If the air conditioning broke down, you would immediately be breathing in stale air. It's quoted as one of the reasons why the twins were 'white elephants'. Before anyone asks, no I'm not rooting out the webpage I read it on.
In fact, I'm off on holiday tomorrow.
Before I go, I'll give you some more reasons 'why Offutt'.

 

[SOMERLED]

Here's a video of a recreation of the famous "Sherman's Neckties" from the American Civil War. Steel rail tracks are heated then bent around a nearby tree.

So what?

 

[SOMERLED]

http://www.dricon.com/fireperformance.shtml
http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/ci/v1no4/v1no4_20_e.html
http://www.bfrl.nist.gov/pdf/GCR04_872.pdf[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
The surface of the wood chars. Until the charred areas are exposed to sufficient heat to burn the char, the remainder of the wood is both insulated and protected from direct flame. Steel has no such protection, if the surface is exposed to heat it affect all of the steel.

I have witnessed, first hand, how a 4x4 beam stopped the spread of a fire that was inside of a house wall, preventing it from burning up the wall and into the attic/roof area.

Now, show what criteria you used to claim the photo was fact. Your personal incredulity has no value in the assessment of the photo's authenticity.

The piece of wood you refer to acted as a firebreak, all houses have them under the floorboards to stop fire being carried by air draughts, so what?

 

[AZCat]

There was no ventilation, none at all. That's why I say the building was sealed. Forget the foyer, once you got upstairs, the only source of fresh/clean air was the air conditioning. If the air conditioning broke down, you would immediately be breathing in stale air. It's quoted as one of the reasons why the twins were 'white elephants'. Before anyone asks, no I'm not rooting out the webpage I read it on.
In fact, I'm off on holiday tomorrow.
Before I go, I'll give you some more reasons 'why Offutt'.

(emphasis mine)

This is not unusual at all - most commercial buildings have mechanical ventilation. There's actually some lag before you're breathing "stale air", because the building volume takes some time to be used up. Not only that, but even the most tightly sealed buildings still have some "leakage". This is pretty well understood and is taken into account by building designers. You're not going to die of oxygen deprivation if the A/C system was shut down, in other words.

 

[SOMERLED]

It's more than temperature controlled ventilation - it's controlling the temperature of the space by heating or cooling the air. It can also involve controlling the humidity of the space (by humidifying or de-humidifying the air), but not all systems involve that. Not all methods of climate control involve "air conditioning". Some use radiant heating, for example.

Malcom is correct that in a building such as the WTC towers, ventilation is provided mechanically via the HVAC system, as opposed to natural ventilation (such as operable windows). The towers, however, had their building envelope compromised considerably by the collisions and outside air was able to ingress through the new "openings".

Thank you for that.
Would you know agree with me that under normal circumstances the twins were sealed with regard to ventilation.

 

[H'ethetheth]

It's more than temperature controlled ventilation - it's controlling the temperature of the space by heating or cooling the air. It can also involve controlling the humidity of the space (by humidifying or de-humidifying the air), but not all systems involve that...

Yes, there is that of course.

Malcom is correct that in a building such as the WTC towers, ventilation is provided mechanically via the HVAC system, as opposed to natural ventilation (such as operable windows). The towers, however, had their building envelope compromised considerably by the collisions and outside air was able to ingress through the new "openings".

No offence, but I will assume this comment is not meant for me, because this all seems rather obvious.

 

[SOMERLED]

The links in this post say you're wrong. Again.

They do absolutely nothing of the kind. They don't even mention the photo.
Show me some evidence that the photo is anything other than a fake. You constantly ask me to prove everything I say, now you prove that the photo is genuine. As one poster put it, show me some references. In this case with regard to the authenticity of the photo.

 

[Metullus]

I say the photo is a total fake. I accept that you don't necessarily know this.
Apart from such a set of circumstances being ludicrous. You could never heat steel up to bending point without seeing off that beam hours sooner - never.
I know it is a fake for any number of other reasons. No one would build a property in such a way. You build in timber or you build in steel. You dont mix and match. There are other reasons, such as planning permission would never be granted etc. It's a fake, a joke. I hope that you can now see this.

Which comment once again demonstrates your ignorance of a subject. The use of glulam beams in combination with structural steel elements is quite common in modern construction. The glulam industry has been quite successful in getting designers to substitute glulams for structural steel in many applications.

 

[SOMERLED]

Yes, there is that of course.

No offence, but I will assume this comment is not meant for me, because this all seems rather obvious.

Obvious in what regard?

 

[Arus808]

You're being silly now.
The air that circulates at ground level etc, cannot possibly keep thosands of people in clean air.
Unless you can raise the standard of your posts, you can't really expect me to keep responding.

And who is being silly now? Cannot possibly keep the thousands of people in clean air?

have you ever been in a building taller than 5 stories Malcolm?

What do you think stair wells are? Hermetically sealed?
Elevator Shafts Malcolm? know what they are.

Edited by chillzero: 

Moderated thread

 

[SOMERLED]

Which comment once again demonstrates your ignorance of a subject. The use of (glulam beams in combination with structural steel elements is quite common in modern construction. The glulam industry has been quite successful in getting designers to substitute glulams for structural steel in many applications.

References please.

 

[Arus808]

So what?

\

So you ignore VIDEO evidence of FIRE able to weaken steel so much that they were able to bend it around a tree? It proves WHAT we've claimed all along since you dont want to believe a photo of steel bending; we show you how the steel bends under "normal" fire conditions.

conditions in both WTC towers were extreme.

Sorry guys, but when faced with ACTUAL evidence, Malcolm completely ignores it. Why do we continue?

 

[VespaGuy]

Malcolm

You have a habit of switching topics rather quickly and ignoring questions about the things you post, especially when they seem to prove you wrong.

Can you please answer these two simple questions?

You mentioned the colored smoke of fireworks earlier. Can you please tell us what causes the different colors?

Also, What color smoke is produced when petroleum based products burn?

Thank you

 

[AZCat]

Thank you for that.
Would you know agree with me that under normal circumstances the twins were sealed with regard to ventilation.

"Sealed" is a misnomer, really. It is difficult to completely seal a building envelope. All operable penetrations (such as doors) will allow some ingress/egress of air (depending on how the building is pressurized) and since most buildings (with a few notable exceptions) are designed to allow the passage of occupants from inside to outside it is impossible to design them to be completely sealed.

The Biosphere 2, IIRC, was designed with a 100% sealed envelope, but I don't know how well it actually performed. They had some problems and had to stop the experiment prematurely, I know.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

There was no ventilation, none at all. That's why I say the building was sealed.

Except, as I've articulated, you're incorrect.

Forget the foyer, once you got upstairs, the only source of fresh/clean air was the air conditioning. If the air conditioning broke down, you would immediately be breathing in stale air.

Except you're incorrect, as I've articulated.

It's quoted as one of the reasons why the twins were 'white elephants'.

Except they were in no way, shape or form "white elephants." That is an imaginary construction, propagated by the "truth movement." It is a lie.

Architects and engineers with far, far more qualifications and expertise than all of the "truth movement" put together created the Twins, to this day considered a marvel. Air management, circulation, and conditioning were taken care of with engineering ease.

Moreover, during their lifetime the buildings enjoyed a high occupancy rate, negating any claim to "white elephant" status.

Before anyone asks, no I'm not rooting out the webpage I read it on.

Of course not.

 

[SOMERLED]

And who is being silly now? Cannot possibly keep the thousands of people in clean air?

have you ever been in a building taller than 5 stories Malcolm?

What do you think stair wells are? Hermetically sealed?
Elevator Shafts Malcolm? know what they are.


IF this isn't a sign of you trolling, i dont know what it is?

Inthis case, yes the stairwells and the elevator shafts were not sources of either clean or fresh air.
I have ben in the south tower which was more than five storeys tall.
Both the stairwells and the lift shafts were in the centre of the tower. There could have been no through flow of air in either a stairwell or a lift shaft.

Edited by chillzero: 

Moderated thread

 

[SOMERLED]

\

So you ignore VIDEO evidence of FIRE able to weaken steel so much that they were able to bend it around a tree? It proves WHAT we've claimed all along since you dont want to believe a photo of steel bending; we show you how the steel bends under "normal" fire conditions.

conditions in both WTC towers were extreme.

Sorry guys, but when faced with ACTUAL evidence, Malcolm completely ignores it. Why do we continue?

A railway line is about six inches by one (in the middle).
The steel inside the twins was considerably thicker.
The railway lines had to be heated and then with a gang of men on either end pushed against a tree.
I wasn't aware of teams of soldiers on 9/11 pushing steel joists against core columns. Consequently Sherman's neckties are of absolutely no relevance to 9/11.

 

[Slayhamlet]

It's more than temperature controlled ventilation - it's controlling the temperature of the space by heating or cooling the air. It can also involve controlling the humidity of the space (by humidifying or de-humidifying the air), but not all systems involve that. Not all methods of climate control involve "air conditioning". Some use radiant heating, for example.

Malcom is correct that in a building such as the WTC towers, ventilation is provided mechanically via the HVAC system, as opposed to natural ventilation (such as operable windows). The towers, however, had their building envelope compromised considerably by the collisions and outside air was able to ingress through the new "openings".

Yes, I know this. I probably should have said "mechanical ventilation" instead of just "ventilation". But calling the mechanical ventilation simply "air conditioning" seemed odd to me. Anyway, not important.