A Challenge for Oliver: This is America

[Abdul Alhazred]

And another thing.

Inquiring minds still want to know what part of New Zealand is most like the South Bronx.

There was quite a bit of discussion of this question. It gets better on the second page.

 

[Chanileslie]

That's why my original question started with the qualifier "Seriously...". Would you be kind enough to give us some context, here? Thanks, and please post here more!

Yes, I did see that. I felt you deserved an answer though.

Luke was kind enough to post the context. This is all due to TheAtheist having a fit at the SC, he posted a message stating basically, "I believe what I believe and I'm not listening to anyone who doesn't agree with me a 100% because if they don't agree with me a 100% they are jerks, so I am taking my ball and going home now!"

I don't post anywhere often any longer - work demands and family demands and most people have usually said what I would have said anyway, but better by the time I get to a thread. I do read though.

Anyway, I am done derailing.

 

[Pyrrho]

Referring to my own quoted post in this topic: What assurances do we have that Iran is taking all necessary measures to secure their fissile material, in order to keep it out of the hands of terrorists? I think my concerns are valid and realistic, and they apply to any country with nuclear technology.

 

[RandFan]

Quite right - it certainly should not be that. However you need to convince not us but yourselves of that!

I couldn't disagree more...well, at least I don't think Americans need to be convinced anymore than the rest of the world. Many of the perceptions of America have little to do with America. I know that you don't want to believe that but at least let's both agree that we come to the discussion with bias and be willing to question our assumptions.

Remember my comment above about vigorous flag-waving? That's a symptom...

I'm afraid that we will have to disagree on this to a large extent. There is no objective evidence that America is anymore jingoistic or patriotic than any other nation. People see what they want to see. Please feel free to be skeptical of my view but understand why I'm very skeptical of yours.

Sorry, not true.

I don't know what you are disagreeing with so I can't comment. There were a number of propositions in that quote.

I fully realise that everyone's vision is not the same. The issue at hand is that these visions will clash at times, so that needs to be resolved, hopefully peacefully and to mutual benefit.

I'm thoroughly lost. Of course they will clash at times. This is the reason we are having this discussion in the first place.

Sometimes this does happen, sometimes not. However when the USA is one of those parties, you are the 900lb bear and can sit anywhere you damn well like. So "mutual benefit" is not really involved in that case, unless you allow it. So please don't expect everyone else to like it also...

1. How Americans should act is viewed in conflicting ways by non-Americans. One more time, the rest of the world is not monolithic. That is not arguable and it is an important point.
2. The purpose of American diplomacy and foreign policy is NOT to please everyone. It's not possible.
3. The purpose of American diplomacy and foreign policy is NOT to get everyone to like us or even most to like us.
4. Being a superpower should not automatically change the scales of right and wrong or compromise. Diplomats should negotiate and discuss in good faith. End of story. If America's status causes American diplomats and political leaders to negotiate or act in bad faith then that is wrong. If America's status causes others to negotiate or act in bad faith then that is wrong.

Fully agree - you have just described accurately what should be happening, not what has been happening.

I have to say that it is this attitude that causes me a great deal of consternation. In reality interdependent relations and foreign policy just isn't the the simple dichotomy of perfection and failure that you would like to make it out to be. It's not an all or nothing affair. Effective diplomacy and good foreign policy are ideals fraught with land mines due to egos, conflicting ideologies and the conflicting goals of many nations.

• America has never completely failed in foreign policy and diplomacy.
• America has never completely succeeded in foreign policy and diplomacy.
• It is very unlikely that America will ever completely succeed at foreign policy. There are just too many variables and conflicting goals.

If you want to argue that America has done a worse job in foreign policy and diplomacy in recent years then I can respect that opinion. It is that kind of attitude that could go along ways in solving problems rather than the "America can do no right" attitude.

 

[The Atheist]

From what you posted below, and knowing TA is a K1w1, I think he was having a bit of a sarcastic laugh at the issue.

Bingo.

This stuff happens when people have difficulty reading facts first.

 

[The Atheist]

Fancy that. Here I am having thought this thread was dead then there it is, resurrected by the very presence [belatedly] of the SC KKK! Party time!

He left the SC because he had his incredibly ignorant ass handed to him.

Luke, as I said to you at the time, my opinion of you changed from quiet admiration to distaste in the space of a couple of days.

Suddenly discovering that I was posting where the bunch of people the roost are distasteful to the point of not being worth pursuing is hardly having my ass handed to me, but you're welcome to see it your way.

I gave you enough hints, outright confirmation and genuine comment in that thread that you should have known exactly what was going on. Take Little-Chucky's "win" in my throwaway comment about China having started no wars. He completely failed to get the point, even after I TOLD him that I was well aware that the comment was an intentional miss. Some people are beyond help. Most people at SC in that group.

Luke!



Y'all beat down TA?

Hey, everyone can dream, don't spoil the party. Apart from Saturday night bingo, it's the only win they'll have this year. Be kind.

You know, if TA heals the breach and a lot of you opt to stop by and visit more often and maybe some of us head over, at least something good will come of it...

Damn right. LukeT had sworn never to post here again. Like it says in my sig, if hatred of me can bring others together, I'm winning! Next thing you know Amateur Scientist will overcome his principles, brush off yet another Paul Newman avatar and return.

Waitaminute....

Having been moved to AAH, I'm not able to quote the posts directly, but I believe in light of TA's finding the nuking of Iran perfectly copacetic, I suggest reading the following posts on nuking. My apologies in advance if this dregs up trouble for some folks. Mods are welcome to do as they please:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2502466#post2502466

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2503137#post2503137

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2504871#post2504871

You're a good chick, you know. As it isn't obvious without reading the entire bunch of trash which makes up the thread at SC that my position copied here by LukeT was a piss-take (and I'm very sure Luke knows that, he's not that deliberately obtuse), I'm glad someone independently quoted what my position on nukes is, a position which I've held for pretty much all of my adult life - they are so far beyond repugnant I doubt I could adequately describe it.

I think those posts show that pretty plainly.

All taken out of context, but hey, who needs context when one has an axe to grind.

Sorry, Chanileslie, but the posts I copied are only "out of context" if the context differs from the posters actual feelings. I'm very confident that those posters' feelings are accurately represented by the views I copied. If not, I will happily retract any or all of them.

As to grinding axes, if I'd wanted to grind any axes about SC, I would have started a big, juicy thread on it instead of just posting in a small, undervalued thread. It just happened to fit the OP, unlike the crying from the SC members who have all come over to see what lies The big, bad Atheist is telling about them. No doubt the gutless wonders who are too scared to post here will be reading and crying about it back at SC.

As to what the participation of SC has shown so far, it certainly ratifies my belief that the majority are a bunch of wannabe neo-cons who don't even have the courage of their convictions, sticking to posting on an unattended little forum of no consequence.

But have fun with your snack battles.

Toodle-pip!

 

[The Atheist]

Referring to my own quoted post in this topic: What assurances do we have that Iran is taking all necessary measures to secure their fissile material, in order to keep it out of the hands of terrorists? I think my concerns are valid and realistic, and they apply to any country with nuclear technology.

Hey, I have a great plan - why don't you go and discuss it in one of the many threads discussing just that.

This one was all about people and how they perceive Americans. You guys are doing a great job of making my point for me.

 

[The Atheist]

There is no objective evidence that America is anymore jingoistic or patriotic than any other nation. People see what they want to see.

Hey, let's get back on the subject - thanks RF!

I'd like to view this one as objectively as I can, because it is an area where I think USA is correctly perceived as going a step or two further than most other countries:

Flag-waving.

You'll see Kiwis and Aussies waving their flags (or wearing them) on two distinct occasions - sporting internationals and ANZAC Day. You need to understand that ANZAC Day fulfils the role of two days in one of yours - Independence and Veterans, because ANZAC Day is about remembrance of events which weren't just a load of Kiwi and Aussie corpses, but also an event which shaped both countries from the bosom of Mother England, where we'd both been until that time in WWI.

Other than those two times, our flags are pretty much things which fly from post offices.

Allegiance & Pledges.

I can say in all honesty that I've never been asked to swear allegiance to any thing or part of New Zealand, or its flag and I know of no country outside of USA which does that. There may be some I'm unaware of.

Songs.

Along with the National Anthem, Americans often sing other "jingoistic" stuff such as God Bless America.

As far as at least British Commonwealth countries (and the likes of Canada and South Africa which have dual-language anthems), I'm not aware of any particularly patriotic songs sung by other nations. I don't count Scots with Scotland the Brave, because their only other alternative is God Save the Queen. Poms would be more likely to chant "Nice one Cyril" than sing Land of Hope and Glory.

There's a couple to mull over, but this stuff gives the impression that patriotism is valued more highly in USA than other places, simply because we don't indoctrinate our kids that way.

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

Whoever cares to can read the original threads and judge for themselves what is the context.

'nuff said.

 

[Luke T.]

Seriously, I have to agree with much of what Atheist has said above, I'm afraid.

How you see yourself at home is not necessarily how you are seen outside your home. Proud patriotism in the USA is usually considered rampant jingoism in other parts of the world. Which results in the sort of quotes provided above by Athiest being seen as objectionable. They see themselves as being proud defenders of the ultimate US way of life from ANY invader. We see them as fairly mindless reactionaries, unable or unwilling to evaluate and moderate the response to the threat. Can you see why Atheist was less than impressed? I can...

So you agree with TA. The rest of the world sees us as jinoistic blah blah blah over Iran. Okay.

In response to TA's claim that "the rest of the world sits back and laughs at the Yanks running around like headless chooks, scared to ******** their pants about it", "it" being Iran, I provided the following current news reports:

Is the European Union laughing?

Brussels, Apr 5: A slim majority of Europeans would back attacks on Iran as a last resort to stop it acquiring a nuclear bomb, according to a poll released yesterday.

Asked to comment on the statement ''we must stop countries like Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, even if that means taking military action'', 52 percent said they agreed, with 40 per cent against.

A majority agreed with the statement in 18 EU states including France and Britain while a majority was against it in nine others, including Germany and Spain.

Support was highest in Denmark (68 per cent) and fell to 37 percent in Slovakia, the poll by France's TNS-Sofres showed.

Majority of Europeans would back Iran attack; Thursday, April 5 2007



Support for bombing Iran was highest in Denmark. Isn't THAT something!

Europe's three main powers -- Germany, France and Britain -- called off 2-1/2 years of talks on closer ties with Iran after it announced in January that it would resume enrichment work.

The so-called EU3 has made a renewed suspension of all enrichment-related activity a condition for restarting negotiations. Tehran refused, saying enrichment is a sovereign right it will not give up.

Reuters report




How about Iran's neighbors. They laughing?

Egypt on Monday said it supported using nuclear technology for peaceful purposes but rejected the emergence of a nuclear military power in the region, in its first official reaction to the standoff over Iran's nuclear program.

"All countries should adhere to their commitments in a way to allow the international community to be sure of the peaceful nature of the Iranian nuclear program, as we do not accept the emergence of a nuclear military power," Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said in a statement.

Aboul Gheit said Egypt was "closely watching" the development of the Iranian nuclear issue "out of its absolute keenness to support all the efforts aimed at consolidating the nuclear nonproliferation (policy) not only at the regional level but all over the world."

Reuters report

SAUDI ARABIA broke its silence yesterday in the growing row between the West and Iran by warning Tehran that its nuclear ambitions could bring disaster to the region.

Prince Saud al-Faisal, the veteran Saudi Foreign Minister, criticised President Ahmadinejad’s Administration, urging him to forgo atomic energy, to moderate his foreign policy and resist the temptation of interfering in Iraq.

Speaking before a terrorism conference in London, which he will be attending today, Prince Saud spoke for many in the Arab world when he cautioned of the dangers of a regional arms race.

“We are urging Iran to accept the position that we have taken to make the Gulf, as part of the Middle East, nuclear free and free of weapons of mass destruction. We hope that they will join us in this policy and assure that no new threat of arms race happens in this region,” he told The Times.

Times of London


Egypt and Saudi Arabia are talking about an arms race if Iran gets nukes. Now if that ain't sidesplitting laughter, I don't know what is.



How about New Zealand? Is New Zealand laughing?

Disarmament and Arms Control Minister Phil Goff expressed New Zealand's support for the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) extraordinary meeting in Vienna on February 2 and 3 to report Iran’s nuclear programme to the United Nations Security Council.

"The unanimity of the concerns expressed by Britain, France, Germany, Russia, China and the United States should send a strong and clear message to Iran," Mr Goff said.

"Earlier this month, New Zealand expressed its strong concern at Iran’s decision to remove IAEA seals on uranium enrichment equipment and material at Natanz and other facilities and to undertake research and development related to uranium enrichment."

In a meeting with the Iranian Foreign Minister Mottaki in London yesterday, Mr Goff urged Iran to re-establish its suspension of nuclear-related enrichment activities to comply with earlier IAEA Board of Governors’ resolutions.

"We also urge Iran to resume negotiations with the EU3 in order to find a solution that meets our and the international community’s concerns that the process of developing nuclear energy in Iran does not lead to the development of nuclear weapons capacity," Mr Goff said.

NZ Beehive

You and TA seem to have a different definition of "the rest of the world" than most people, Zep. ETA: The simple fact is that the whole world sees that a nuclear armed Iran is a threat to everyone, not just the U.S.

I suggest you go back and read the out of context posts that TA provided from SC members and reconcile them with the news reports of world opinion (including your own nation's) that you now have. Then try to say that America is alone or "jingoistic" on the issue of Iran with a straight face.

 

[Luke T.]

Whoever cares to can read the original threads and judge for themselves what is the context.

'nuff said.

Correct. Zep, however, is too proud to do so.

But, yeah, 'nuff said.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Since some of you SC folks who have posted here left before Hokulele joined JREF can I request that someone involved ask that this thread be split to remove your bickering from this thread and place it in another more appropriate than what the, IMO, excellently worded OP was hoping the topic would be? She's a really great addition to JREF and I hate to see a potentially very interesting and great thread ruined by cross forum bickering.

 

[Hokulele]

Since some of you SC folks who have posted here left before Hokulele joined JREF can I request that someone involved ask that this thread be split to remove your bickering from this thread and place it in another more appropriate than what the, IMO, excellently worded OP was hoping the topic would be? She's a really great addition to JREF and I hate to see a potentially very interesting and great thread ruined by cross forum bickering.

Actually, I don't mind it so much. I did go back to read the context of the quotes (once the thread was linked), and strangely enough, all of this ties into my OP very well. (Yay! Drag everything back into context.)

When you are seeing a skewed perception of any nation (or forum), going local is the best way to discover true opinions. I don't want to comment on the quotes specifically, as I really don't have a dog in that fight. I know this is not what TA had intended with his post, but I have a better understanding of what the posters in his quotes really meant. YMMV.

Oh, and has anyone seen Oliver?

 

[Elizabeth I]

What the eff is wrong with patriotism?

Flag-waving.

You'll see Kiwis and Aussies waving their flags (or wearing them) on two distinct occasions - sporting internationals and ANZAC Day. You need to understand that ANZAC Day fulfils the role of two days in one of yours - Independence and Veterans, because ANZAC Day is about remembrance of events which weren't just a load of Kiwi and Aussie corpses, but also an event which shaped both countries from the bosom of Mother England, where we'd both been until that time in WWI.

Other than those two times, our flags are pretty much things which fly from post offices.

Sporting events and national holidays are about the only times we fly our flags too, besides at government buildings. So what if we have more national holidays than you do? Does it hurt you in any way if I choose to fly my flag on Thanksgiving, or to honor the men who stormed the beaches at Normandy by flying my flag on June 6? Does it make me a dangerous war criminal likely to put a knife between my teeth and go flying off to further inflame the already dangerous Middle East? Does it mean that I advocate loading up the Air Force and sending them to bomb Mexico into submission so we can have their oil?

Nope, it means that the U.S. flag is a deeply significant symbol to me.

Allegiance & Pledges.

I can say in all honesty that I've never been asked to swear allegiance to any thing or part of New Zealand, or its flag and I know of no country outside of USA which does that. There may be some I'm unaware of.

So what? Do you think we are taught to say, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the country for which it stands" while simultaneously thinking, "And DEATH to all the inferior people who infest the rest of the world"?

Songs.

Along with the National Anthem, Americans often sing other "jingoistic" stuff such as God Bless America.

Jingoistic? Here are the lyrics:

God Bless America,
Land that I love.
Stand beside her and guide her
Through the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans white with foam
God bless America, my home sweet home.

That hardly sounds chauvinistic or belligerent to me. Religious maybe, but it doesn't say, "God bless America and smite all her enemies with pustulent fatal sores." It could just as easily be "God bless America and every other country on the face of the earth."

Try "America the Beautiful":

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

Not exactly hostile to the rest of the world. And is there anyone who doesn't wish good fortune for the place where he or she lives?

I do not understand this prejudice against patriotism. Not chauvinism, not imperialism, not expansionism, just patriotism. I happen to think the U.S. is a pretty good place to live, especially when compared with a number of other countries, but if you want to think the same thing about New Zealand or Australia or Italy or Germany or Spain or France or Great Britain or Zimbabwe, it's perfectly fine with me. I'm not going to start a shooting war over it.

Is it what seems to me to be a sort of worldwide prejudice against strong emotion of any kind? It's so uncool to really care about your country and be proud of its traditions? It's so...juvenile...to be enthusiastic about that kind of thing? What?

 

[Schneibster]

Personally I kind of favor Woodie Guthrie's anthem:

Chorus:
This land is your land, this land is my land
From California, to the New York Island
From the redwood forest, to the gulf stream waters
This land was made for you and me

As I was walking a ribbon of highway
I saw above me an endless skyway
I saw below me a golden valley
This land was made for you and me

Chorus

I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Chorus

The sun comes shining as I was strolling
The wheat fields waving and the dust clouds rolling
The fog was lifting a voice come chanting
This land was made for you and me

Chorus

As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tress passin'
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!

Chorus

In the squares of the city - In the shadow of the steeple
Near the relief office - I see my people
And some are grumblin' and some are wonderin'
If this land's still made for you and me.

Chorus (2x)

That's my America.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Personally I kind of favor Woodie Guthrie's anthem:

Chorus:
This land is your land, this land is my land
From California, to the New York Island
From the redwood forest, to the gulf stream waters
This land was made for you and me

As I was walking a ribbon of highway
I saw above me an endless skyway
I saw below me a golden valley
This land was made for you and me

Chorus

I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Chorus

The sun comes shining as I was strolling
The wheat fields waving and the dust clouds rolling
The fog was lifting a voice come chanting
This land was made for you and me

Chorus

As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tress passin'
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!

Chorus

In the squares of the city - In the shadow of the steeple
Near the relief office - I see my people
And some are grumblin' and some are wonderin'
If this land's still made for you and me.

Chorus (2x)

That's my America.

I don't mind that one, but what's wrong with private property?

 

[Zep]

Correct. Zep, however, is too proud to do so.

But, yeah, 'nuff said.

Incorrect. Zep could not give a flying what happens at SC for the time being. However I'm very proud of some of the people there, and especially the person who runs the place. And I miss them here.

Just so you know, OK?

 

[The Atheist]

Thanks, Elizabeth, you've just proven something else I said to RandFan earlier on in the piece, that no sooner does the subject come up than flashpoints are reached and the wrong impression is taken.

To whit:

What the eff is wrong with patriotism?

I'm just astonished that you'd react like that, when I hadn't said there was anything wrong with it. I was pointing out that Americans are perceived as being more "into that stuff" than other nations, in response to RF's comment that he doubted it was true.

Sensitivity is a prime example of what I'd been saying.

Does it make me a dangerous war criminal likely to put a knife between my teeth and go flying off to further inflame the already dangerous Middle East? Does it mean that I advocate loading up the Air Force and sending them to bomb Mexico into submission so we can have their oil?

Nope, it means that the U.S. flag is a deeply significant symbol to me.

Well, I think you've shown that point far more adequately than I could ever have done with that statement.

Sensitivity may be a little light in import for it.

So what? Do you think we are taught to say, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the country for which it stands" while simultaneously thinking, "And DEATH to all the inferior people who infest the rest of the world"?

I rest my case.

Not exactly hostile to the rest of the world.

And again...

And is there anyone who doesn't wish good fortune for the place where he or she lives?

Heeey! There we go, back from Oz!

I do not understand this prejudice against patriotism.

I don't recall anyone having a prejudice against patriotism, unless it gets out of control. You know the sort, quick to the defensive, eager to build strawmen... Oh, just like you were doing above. Maybe yours isn't out of control, but you've behaved very much like one who is stereotypically and touchily patriotic. You've launched a huge counter-attack.

Against nothing.

Not chauvinism, not imperialism, not expansionism, just patriotism. I happen to think the U.S. is a pretty good place to live, especially when compared with a number of other countries, but if you want to think the same thing about New Zealand or Australia or Italy or Germany or Spain or France or Great Britain or Zimbabwe, it's perfectly fine with me. I'm not going to start a shooting war over it.

"A shooting war" now?

Do you get this out of control very often? I find the progression here just amazing.

Is it what seems to me to be a sort of worldwide prejudice against strong emotion of any kind? It's so uncool to really care about your country and be proud of its traditions? It's so...juvenile...to be enthusiastic about that kind of thing? What?

QED

 

[Zep]

I couldn't disagree more...well, at least I don't think Americans need to be convinced anymore than the rest of the world. Many of the perceptions of America have little to do with America. I know that you don't want to believe that but at least let's both agree that we come to the discussion with bias and be willing to question our assumptions.

I'm afraid that we will have to disagree on this to a large extent. There is no objective evidence that America is anymore jingoistic or patriotic than any other nation. People see what they want to see. Please feel free to be skeptical of my view but understand why I'm very skeptical of yours.

I don't know what you are disagreeing with so I can't comment. There were a number of propositions in that quote.

I'm thoroughly lost. Of course they will clash at times. This is the reason we are having this discussion in the first place.

1. How Americans should act is viewed in conflicting ways by non-Americans. One more time, the rest of the world is not monolithic. That is not arguable and it is an important point. Not being argued here.
2. The purpose of American diplomacy and foreign policy is NOT to please everyone. It's not possible. Again, no argument.
3. The purpose of American diplomacy and foreign policy is NOT to get everyone to like us or even most to like us. Again, no argument.
4. Being a superpower should not automatically change the scales of right and wrong or compromise. Diplomats should negotiate and discuss in good faith. End of story. If America's status causes American diplomats and political leaders to negotiate or act in bad faith then that is wrong. If America's status causes others to negotiate or act in bad faith then that is wrong.

I have to say that it is this attitude that causes me a great deal of consternation. In reality interdependent relations and foreign policy just isn't the the simple dichotomy of perfection and failure that you would like to make it out to be. It's not an all or nothing affair. Effective diplomacy and good foreign policy are ideals fraught with land mines due to egos, conflicting ideologies and the conflicting goals of many nations.

While I could not agree with you more, and I share your indignance, this is actually where things can and do come unstuck...at times. I have to re-iterate that the people they are negotiating with will often form their opinions of the USA not on the above (plainly obvious) attributes of the USA being a country of 300 million individuals. Instead, they will see the USA as a bloc, represented and typified by what they learn of it through media, and through the Americans they typically see or read about. It leads to stereotyping, of course. Both ways...

How about this set: All Muslims are terrorists, out to destroy the USA. The EU are all a bunch of bureaucrats bent on destroying trade for the USA. All Japanese are inscrutable and two-faced. The UN is dominated by the African and Arabian states and is a waste of time and money. Anyone who doesn't support global free trade is a socialist commie bastard. If schoolchildren don't run Old Glory up the pole every day and salute it and recite the Oath of Allegiance they will definitely hate the USA and turn commie...

All patently false, wouldn't you say? Now read some of the posts in this and other threads about the subject.

• America has never completely failed in foreign policy and diplomacy. But it HAS been worse at some time than others.
• America has never completely succeeded in foreign policy and diplomacy. No-one ever has - diplomacy is the art of compromise.
• It is very unlikely that America will ever completely succeed at foreign policy. There are just too many variables and conflicting goals. No expectation that it should. Just that sometimes more recently there seems to be a deliberate snatching of failure from the jaws of success.
  

If you want to argue that America has done a worse job in foreign policy and diplomacy in recent years then I can respect that opinion. It is that kind of attitude that could go along ways in solving problems rather than the "America can do no right" attitude.

Sure, sometimes there have been diplomatic decisions by the USA that have not been universally applauded. In the past, there have indeed been some very positive and innovative results that were initiated and driven by the USA that had far-reaching positive effects globally. More recently though, it has been all downhill, and in a big way.

Seriously, I am not joking when I suggest that people like yourself, and perhaps Beeps and Lt.Col. H. Bidlack USAF(Ret) among others here, would be far better proponents of US foreign policy development than the crew in now. At the very least, you are temperate and thoughtful, and have a much clearer understanding of what is required to proceed on the subject!

 

[The Atheist]

Support for bombing Iran was highest in Denmark. Isn't THAT something!

Argument by majority.

What church you going to this Sunday?