A Challenge for Oliver: This is America

[LostAngeles]

Americans are actually just people. Like people in other parts of the world there are good and bad ones and every shade in between. There is nothing in the quotes that demonstrates any behavior or view that is any less ill-informed or jingoistic than similar people from other nations.

That being said, let's assume that every one of the quotes is ill-informed, presumptuous and arrogant. Are you honestly saying that such opinions are exclusive to Americans or that Americans are more likely to exhibit such behavior? Really? Any evidence? This is a skeptics forum. Have you done a study, controlled for your bias and come to an objective conclusion? The notion that ignorant and arrogant non-Americans are superior to ignorant and arrogant Americans is silly.

You are buying the stereotype lock stock and barrel. That we are a superpower might make us a bit more likely to be arrogant but it also makes it more likely that our warts will be reported than other nations.

Well said.

I'd like to add that if y'all are scared by the jingoists and the folks that bleed, piss, and **** red, white, and blue, think of how we feel.

We love our country. Our country was pretty screwed from the get-go, but we've made a lot of advances. We're getting better, we're learning that we don't have first-class citizens, second-class citizens, etc. We're still working it out and being an incredibly diverse nation, we've all got different ways of going about this.

Some of are ********.

********, if you've ever had one, have a tendancy to make a lot of noise and raise a lot of stink at bad times. They put out a lot of crap.

...Fine, I'll stop punning.

The loud jingoists are the one's getting attention. The media pays attention so the leaders pay attention and the people pay attention. It gives a false impression that this is how the United States is and how its citizens should behave.

The rest of us are trying to fight against that, to make our voices heard over that din and sometimes that's easier to do locally than it nationally.

So, again, I implore the non-USA-ians to check out some of our local news.

And in the interest of exchange, if you've got a local news source that you'd like us to read so we can learn about your country and not think that say, all Danes are tall GHEYZ who demand evidence constantly, please feel free to make suggestions.

 

[The Atheist]

Lost Angeles - great post.


Something strikes me as amusing here - I have taken great pains to point out that I don't base my opinion of all Yanks on the posts I copied and that I accept those are a minority view. I also tried to stress that I posted them to show the type of stuff anyone might read and form an opinion from, yet this stuff comes back:

wooohooo! its 'lets find some objectionable stuff and post it without context" time! I guess the aim this time is to make a region of your choosing look bad.

Wrong and wrong. I didn't post it to make anyone or anything look bad. I posted to show that it's not just media which gives a poor impression.

... I believe that's still a valid challenge and much more substantial than the challenge of quoting posters you don't agree with from another forum to settle some personal vendetta or to make a point that's questionable at best.

Pretty much ditto the above, although I'll note that there's no vendetta involved. Pure coincidence that both threads were happening at the same time - I didn't start either of them.

Are you honestly saying that such opinions are exclusive to Americans or that Americans are more likely to exhibit such behavior? Really? Any evidence? This is a skeptics forum. Have you done a study, controlled for your bias and come to an objective conclusion? The notion that ignorant and arrogant non-Americans are superior to ignorant and arrogant Americans is silly.

You are buying the stereotype lock stock and barrel. That we are a superpower might make us a bit more likely to be arrogant but it also makes it more likely that our warts will be reported than other nations.

(Bolding mine)

RF, I'm finding it difficult to understand why you'd write that post after I'd taken pains to state that I don't buy the stereotype, except as far as those who act stereotypically.

Basically, I put those three posts above down to defensiveness. I refer back to my previous post, where I said:

Americans, like most people, are proud of their country and lots of them see attacks against US foreign policy as attacks on the American Way and jump in to defend USA.

While it wasn't foreign policy being attacked, the premise is the same - three defensive posts, three errors.

On the basis of those three posts, I could start world war three, but I won't. (this time! )

I guess it shows quite nicely how easy it is to mis-interpret views on a touchy subject.

 

[The Atheist]

So if enough people over here say lets bomb Iran, then you'll bugger off from here too?

You can only hope!

 

[The Atheist]

Well, I noticed you at least edited one poster's name to make it recognizable to users on this forum, as I know he goes by a different name on the other. Can't imagine why that would be necessary to make your point, in addition to wondering why you would have to cull posts from another forum to support your position. Surely you could have found posts from this forum, if lots of Americans are so "insane."

Sorry, I missed this, I wasn't avoiding the question.

You're right, plenty of similar posts would be found here, but it doesn't appear to be a majority view here and the above were all easy to find as I'd been particpating in virtually identical threads at both forums, and they were right in front of me, so I didn't have to read thousands of posts to find them. The reason I used the names is so that it's obvious that they haven't been culled from nukeallragheads.com. I changed Cool Hand Luke back to Amateur Scientist because all the other names are identical to the names here.

An excellent counterpoint is that the thread I was reading here appeared to be a marvel of clarity, sense and caution, in comparison.

 

[skeptifem]

See your own country through someone else's eyes...

Ive actually changed my mind about this subject from originally agreeing with you (long ago).

I used to think badly of america and americans when I first started paying attention to politics (pretty much right after 9/11, i was a freshman in high school then). I heard people say things that I thought were stupid and imagined the rest of the world to be somehow better for disagreeing. I believed that for quite awhile.

Until I actually started working with/talking to people from all over the world. Really, there is nothing particularily bad about americans or the us in the way that people would assume.

It reminds me of when people can't wait for college because they think there will be less ignorance/stupidity and really they just find a different brand of the same old ********.

The Atheist wrote:

Wrong and wrong. I didn't post it to make anyone or anything look bad. I posted to show that it's not just media which gives a poor impression.

The media here portrays europeans as snooty and america hating sometimes. My examples were trying to show the exact same thing, that there are ignorant, stereotypical jerks no matter where you go. Im not going to judge germany off of olivers posts and Im not going to judge any country off of the most outrageous people who live there. I mean if we were to compare american's posts fairly there would be many more sane posts by americans for every one crazy thing you could find.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

This thread is not at all what I expected. It seems to lack a certain...hmmm...trying to think of the word...hold on a sec...I guess you might say oliverness.

 

[The Atheist]

This thread is not at all what I expected. It seems to lack a certain...hmmm...trying to think of the word...hold on a sec...I guess you might say oliverness.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

[RandFan]

RF, I'm finding it difficult to understand why you'd write that post after I'd taken pains to state that I don't buy the stereotype, except as far as those who act stereotypically.

I was responding to zep.

 

[Elizabeth I]

I'd also like to suggest:

www.mysanantonio.com
www.laprensa.com

just to add a little border flavor.

 

[The Atheist]

I was responding to zep.

Sorry mate, I see where I made the mistake.

Looks as though this thread's not controversial enough to have many legs anyway!

 

[Zep]

Late to respond...

Americans are actually just people. Like people in other parts of the world there are good and bad ones and every shade in between. There is nothing in the quotes that demonstrates any behavior or view that is any less ill-informed or jingoistic than similar people from other nations.

Totally agree to the first part, but not so much to the second. From out here, Americans do have a reputation for over-enthusiastic flag-waving in other people's faces. As I said above, it seems to be considered "normal" to be that continuously and vigorously patriotic. Note that, while we don't see it that way ourselves, it does not mean we hate you for it. It's just part of who you are!

That being said, let's assume that every one of the quotes is ill-informed, presumptuous and arrogant. Are you honestly saying that such opinions are exclusive to Americans or that Americans are more likely to exhibit such behavior? Really? Any evidence? This is a skeptics forum. Have you done a study, controlled for your bias and come to an objective conclusion? The notion that ignorant and arrogant non-Americans are superior to ignorant and arrogant Americans is silly.

Again, I agree with your assessment. I was in no way implying that it was an exclusive attribute of the USA. But is IS an attribute,and it IS particularly noticeable.

You are buying the stereotype lock stock and barrel. That we are a superpower might make us a bit more likely to be arrogant but it also makes it more likely that our warts will be reported than other nations.

No, personally, I do not buy the stereotype at all. I have been around Americans and in the USA enough to know the vast variety of people and opinions that abound there. And your almost overwhelmingly generous and friendly nature (for the most part). I also know of the varying feelings on patriotism, on your place in the world, and discussion on how a superpower should behave, etc, etc. As I said above, this forum is actually atypical of how Americans are feared of behaving - it is opinionated, varied, thoughtful, honest, intelligent and positive.

However others DO buy the stereotype, and the public actions and responses, such as those quoted above, feed that stereotype directly and heavily. And if they are the ONLY type of responses that make it to other places in the world...guess what they will think of you as a whole?



ETA: IT does seem like I'm contradicting myself from first to last points. Actually, it's two somewhat different things.

 

[Zep]

Ive actually changed my mind about this subject from originally agreeing with you (long ago).

I used to think badly of america and americans when I first started paying attention to politics (pretty much right after 9/11, i was a freshman in high school then). I heard people say things that I thought were stupid and imagined the rest of the world to be somehow better for disagreeing. I believed that for quite awhile.

Until I actually started working with/talking to people from all over the world. Really, there is nothing particularily bad about americans or the us in the way that people would assume.

It reminds me of when people can't wait for college because they think there will be less ignorance/stupidity and really they just find a different brand of the same old ********.

See above: There are ignorant people the world over who base their opinions on preconceived prejudices. It's not a US-specific problem at all. The problem being outlined in this thread is to address where these prejudices come from. Hokulele has laid down a challenge to Oliver to find alternate sources to the usual biased and "template" mass-media outlets, and see the world through their eyes. I agree that is an excellent thing to do.

Personally I have never thought badly about Americans as a whole. That is, I have made no automatic assumption that they match some negative stereotype (except perhaps in fun!). Some have been "stereotypical", most others have not. There's even been one or two whom I would gladly punch in the face the next time I see them. But that's because they are awful people, not awful Americans. There's many more Aussies (and one particular Pom) I would gladly treat similarly, for the same reasons!

 

[WildCat]

So please think again about how those quotes sound to us who are not Americans. They are the sound of thoughtlessness, of ingrown and misplaced belligerence, of people who have little understanding just how powerful their country really is and how that is perceived.

Perhaps you should read the thread he cherry-picked those from: http://www.skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=15703

And I promise not to judge all Kiwis by TA's conduct.

 

[Zep]

Perhaps you should read the thread he cherry-picked those from: http://www.skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=15703

And I promise not to judge all Kiwis by TA's conduct.

Do you also promise not to think all Aussies are clones of Croc Man? And all Indians are not clones of Apu from The Simpsons?

And how about you put the quotes in context for us, please. I'm not going to bother myself with that forum as it stands today.

 

[WildCat]

Do you also promise not to think all Aussies are clones of Croc Man? And all Indians are not clones of Apu from The Simpsons?

I rarely stereotype, with few exceptions. Such as when writing a home repair estimate for Indians and Pakistanis inflate it by 30% or so, because they will always want to haggle price with you. Gives me some leeway to "give in" to their demands.

And how about you put the quotes in context for us, please. I'm not going to bother myself with that forum as it stands today.

I'm not going to do your homework for you. And you won't get cooties from clicking a link.

 

[RandFan]

However others DO buy the stereotype, and the public actions and responses, such as those quoted above, feed that stereotype directly and heavily. And if they are the ONLY type of responses that make it to other places in the world...guess what they will think of you as a whole?

Thanks Zep. Good post.

There's not much we can do about individuals. We are an open nation of 3 hundred million. People will say what they will say. They are to a large extent forces of nature. We might as well complain about the tide.

Now, if you want to argue that leadership could raise the level of discourse and could put on a better face or act better in the world and at lest improve the situation to a degree then I would agree. I think we could do a better job but even if we have excellent leadership that is cognizant of how others perceive us and the leader ship works to improve relations with other nations and places as a high priority our public image, our efforts will still have very limited impact. We suffer from the David and Goliath syndrome. People want, and even to a large extent need, to hate America. America can easily be used to justify what's wrong in people's lives especially in Muslim nations. Leaders and individuals don't need to take individual responsibility just blame America. If you are having difficulty then it's America's fault. People love to hate us and to be frank (I don't like being Steve) I understand that since I hate Paris Hilton.

 

[frank462]

People love to hate us and to be frank (I don't like being Steve) I understand that since I hate Paris Hilton.

Hey! I resemble that remark.

 

[Hokulele]

See above: There are ignorant people the world over who base their opinions on preconceived prejudices. It's not a US-specific problem at all. The problem being outlined in this thread is to address where these prejudices come from. Hokulele has laid down a challenge to Oliver to find alternate sources to the usual biased and "template" mass-media outlets, and see the world through their eyes. I agree that is an excellent thing to do.

This is actually a very good point, building on previous points you had made. Someone earlier in the thread posted a link to one of the Sydney papers. Are there others from your home country you can link to? I do agree with you that in addition to having Oliver view my country through my eyes, I should see other countries and their views of themselves, as well as their views of us. I do travel out of the country fairly often, Singapore and S. Korea so far this year, and do try to follow local news when it is presented in a language I can understand. (One of the few positive results of British colonialism! Well, for those of us who speak/read English.)

However, I could do better, and I would like to take my own challenge in reverse. So far I have seen Ottowa and Sydney represented. Any other international sources? I could Google for some, but I would far rather have personal recommendations from people with first-hand knowledge of the sources.

 

[LashL]

This is actually a very good point, building on previous points you had made. Someone earlier in the thread posted a link to one of the Sydney papers. Are there others from your home country you can link to? I do agree with you that in addition to having Oliver view my country through my eyes, I should see other countries and their views of themselves, as well as their views of us. I do travel out of the country fairly often, Singapore and S. Korea so far this year, and do try to follow local news when it is presented in a language I can understand. (One of the few positive results of British colonialism! Well, for those of us who speak/read English.)

However, I could do better, and I would like to take my own challenge in reverse. So far I have seen Ottowa and Sydney represented. Any other international sources? I could Google for some, but I would far rather have personal recommendations from people with first-hand knowledge of the sources.

There are tons of online newspapers here and here. I wander through them when the mood strikes me but haven't done so recently. More often, I consult the lists of links when looking for publications from a particular geographical area, and I often find excellent local coverage.

As for Toronto, there are four large national daily newspapers that span the political spectrum, with the Toronto Star to the left, the Globe and Mail in the centre, the National Post to the right, and the Toronto Sun as the tabloid-style right of centre rag.

There are also dozens of smaller daily papers in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area), reflective of the communities, and numerous weekly papers as well.

Oh, and if you're ever in southern Ontario, Hokulele, drinks are on me

 

[gtc]

Hokulele,

I tend to read The Sydney Morning Herald online as it is the best Australian newspaper website.

The Fairfax group publishes the Sydney Morning Herald along with The Melbourne Age. Both are major metropolitan broadsheets and both skew left politically (the Age more than the Herald).

The Australian is the other major broadsheet and skews somewhat right. It is part of Rupert Murdoch's News Ltd who also publish several tabloid metropolitan papers. They can be found at news.com.au.

There is also the West Australian and The Canberra Times independent of the Fairfax and News Ltd.