Does anyone else back up William Rodriguez's story?

[kookbreaker]

JUst out of curiosity, what sort of explosive device creates a fireball anyway? I know that they do on TV and in movies, but that's because they use gasoline. I mean a real explosive device like is being claimed to have been used in the WRC basement.

All explosions make some sort of fireball. Its just a question of how large it is and how much effect it will have compared to its other devastating effects. If you are in the fireball range of High Explosives, you are going to be torn apart by the blast rather than be burnt. FAEs sort of work the same way. Low explosives (such as fertilizer bombs) are more likely to have a fireball that can burn a person, but they are somewhere around the fourth order of damaging factors.

What often happens, and is mistaken for bomb damage, is that fuel gets tossed by the blast and ignited. This can happen, especially if someone deliberately puts fuel around the bomb. But strictly speaking it is not bomb damage.

 

[CHF]

If you are in the fireball range of High Explosives, you are going to be torn apart by the blast rather than be burnt.

Exactly! We've got people walking around with their flesh hanging off for Christ's sake. How on earth does the fire from an explosive do that and yet leave them alive with all their limbs attatched?

 

[PhantomWolf]

All explosions make some sort of fireball.

All explosives I have seen create a flash rather then a fireball. Granted a diesel fertiziler might because the diesel may vapourize to some extent, but even the one explosion I have seen using that had a limited fireball that was extigushed by the blast. I'm looking for something that could funnel a fireball up the elevator shafts and cause the burns that were reported.

eta: BTW the explosives I have seen include. Gunpowder, C4, Blasting Gel, TNT, Dynamite, and Diesel/Fertiliser. Explosive devices include land mines, mortor rounds, artillery shells, and blasting caps. I haven't seen any that produce an explosive fire ball that would burn a victim like the witnesses recalled in the WTC.

 

[LashL]

Your first source:
Security Management surveys high-profile properties to find out.
It included a nice table at the end showing the survey's results as well. I await your retraction or greater reading comprehension on your part.

No, I will not be offering a retraction, and my reading comprehension is perfectly fine.

You conveniently left out the fact that your post was, in fact, incorrect as written; you still do not understand what Alt+F4 wrote or what I cited; you have still not figured out what it is that you are missing, whether because of a legitimate reading comprehension issue or wilful blindness, I cannot tell; and you haven't completed steps 1 and 2 as set out previously.

For ease of reference, I will reproduce my prior post for your convenience:

No, the sources (plural) that I provided are not "a survey" but are further evidence of the measures that were undertaken after the 1993 bombing at the WTC. Once you have completed step 1 above (reading for comprehension and understanding what you have mischaracterized about Alt+F4's prior post), then you should complete step 2 and read the sources Alt+F4 posted and the additional ones that I posted.

Only then will you be ready to discuss further. You have to understand the basics first, and so far, it appears that you are missing the basics.

 

[beachnut]

Source and empirical evidence, please?

So I decided to take a look at the worst case scenario: A Review of the Flammability Hazard of JetA Fuel Vapor In Civil Transport Aircraft Fuel Tanks. And to my suprise, there is not a single mention of JetA fuel vapor in a white smoke form. Well to give you the benefit of the doubt I decided to check out Shepherd, J. E., Explosion of Aviation Kerosene (Jet A) Vapors, CIT Presentation at
NTSB Meeting, October 7, 1997, NTSB Docket No. SA-516, Exhibit No. 20F.
And to my suprise again, not a single mention of jetA fuel vapors being white.

Wrong. I have seen Jet fuel dumped, it is white in the day, it looks like a cloud, not sure why the truth movement gets every single fact wrong. You should have asked a pilot what color the fuel vapor appears to be. Like a cloud, white. Next.

 

[beachnut]

Which is essentially less volatile than avgas.

Just stating the facts.

but more energy, and your point?

 

[beachnut]

There was no avgas in the WTC

But you forgot to point out that jet fuel has even more energy than avgas. 315 tons of TNT energy in the jet fuel, was that right? Is that per jet?

 

[gumboot]

Wrong. I have seen Jet fuel dumped, it is white in the day, it looks like a cloud, not sure why the truth movement gets every single fact wrong. You should have asked a pilot what color the fuel vapor appears to be. Like a cloud, white. Next.

I knew we should have asked beachnut. If anyone would know what colour jet fuel vapour is, it would be a KC-135 Stratotanker instructor.

-Gumboot

 

[hard lines]

but more energy, and your point?

A highly volatile fuel is more likely to form an explosive mixture with air. Avgas opposed to jet fuel is more likely to form an explosive mixture with air.

 

[Swing Dangler]

Wrong. I have seen Jet fuel dumped, it is white in the day, it looks like a cloud, not sure why the truth movement gets every single fact wrong. You should have asked a pilot what color the fuel vapor appears to be. Like a cloud, white. Next.

You do know the difference between a liquid and a gas correct?
Where was the fuel dumped? Besides, we are talking about the jetfuel vapor (gas form), not the fuel itself (liquid form). So according to you, the jet fuel placed in the jet is white to begin with? Everytime I filled the old kerosene heater, the kerosene was clear liquid form.

No, I will not be offering a retraction, and my reading comprehension is perfectly fine.

The funny thing is, you said your source wasn't a survey, and I just showed you that it was. What is your pointing in arguing this any further?

Weaken the core - You mean the same core that stood after the collapse? The area where survivors were found?

The terrorists weren't pefect you know! They were 3 for 4 overall and about missed the South Tower, so there is room for error in the event itself.

Reduce resistance of the sublevels - so the bad guys were afraid the collapse would not proceed past ground level? Is that what you're saying?

No even OBL said they didn't expect a global collapse. Perhaps that is why they did it.

Kill people - yet it burned them instead. And smelled like kerosene.

Explosions burn people, yes. And One witness who smelled the kerosene thought it was coming from a vehicle in the parking garage.

Hamper rescue ops - so you also think the bad guys will kill thousands with planes yet are gonna throw in a risky basement bomb for the sake of a few more???

Hey if your willing to risk hijacking multiple airliners, sneaking weapons on board, and flying extended routes away from the target, I have no problem with a risk factor. The whole operation was a huge risk factor.

Again, you make too many assumptions. The smoke could have been from burned kerosene, it could have been from kerosene vapor. Without photos or really detailed descriptions we will never know for certain.

I've burned kerosene many times. Never was white smoke produced. I've seen the results of many airline crashes and no white smoke produced from the kerosene.

Why this childish reluctance on your part

I'm viewing the event within the official story. I could say that but can I prove that? No. I have already listed a potential suspect below.

Your complaint here would seem to be that since the Kerosene Vapor had just ignited, that therefore no further Kerosene Vapor could be in the stairwell.

No, I'm stating there wasn't kerosene vapor at all and that kerosene smoke when burnt is not white.

The Smoke Was From Burned Kerosene: This seems to have not even been considered by you. Why is that? Kerosene smoke is especially produced when it is not conbusted at higher temperatures (such as in a jet engine).

Kerosene when burnt is dark and black not white. I know you have seen the impact videos. Where is the white smoke? Where is the white smoke in the lobby from the Naudet Brother's film? With the amount of damage in the basement, one would expect to see large amounts of white smoke in and around the lobby's or at least coming out of the garage areas near ground level.

Exactly! We've got people walking around with their flesh hanging off for Christ's sake. How on earth does the fire from an explosive do that and yet leave them alive with all their limbs attatched?

Did you consider other combustibles that may have ignited from the initial explosion?

POM-What enables you to excel so many highly intelligent and superbly educated people?

I don't think I excel so many highly educated people. I read the relevant section in the NIST report to analyse how they determined the remaining fuel left in the building. I posted the relevant information. Have you read that section or did you ignore that portion of my post?
Start by assuming that the only air available for burning was already present when the aircraft struck. This is a plausible assumption given
the short time period available.-NIST

 

[Gravy]

You do know the difference between a liquid and a gas correct?
Where was the fuel dumped? Besides, we are talking about the jetfuel vapor (gas form), not the fuel itself (liquid form). So according to you, the jet fuel placed in the jet is white to begin with? Everytime I filled the old kerosene heater, the kerosene was clear liquid form.

You are so right. We all know that clouds, being made of water, are clear.

No, I'm stating there wasn't kerosene vapor at all and that kerosene smoke when burnt is not white.
Kerosene when burnt is dark and black not white.

The smoke generator vaporized liquid kerosene by adding heat and emitted a dense white smoke through a nozzle.
http://portal.acm.org/ft_gateway.cf...GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=72262775&CFTOKEN=77512020

A smoke generator capable of producing a stable source of smoke over a prolonged period by pyrolysis of aviation kerosene was developed. The smoke levels and characteristics are representative of aircraft engine smoke.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1985STIN...8617702G

The "smoke", which is vaporized kerosene, is produced using a Preston-Sweeting mist generator. (photo of smoke included). http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~devenpor/aoe3054/manual/expt1/index.html

United States Patent 3964304 Smoke generator

1. In combination, a wind tunnel for testing models in a moving airflow and a smoke generator disposed within the wind tunnel to produce smoke for visually indicating the airflow in the wind tunnel during a test comprising...

The flow of this fluid which may be any fluid which produced a visable smoke when vaporized such as kerosene, fuel oil, hydraulic oil or diffusion pumo oil, to the generator is controlled by needle valve 24.

Kerosene smoke generator for flow visualization
http://books.google.com/books?id=nh...jYx&sig=RzDh8VBBZSZb0QwliABMpzIO3iU#PPA373,M1

Wind Tunnel Flow Visualization
...found that kerosene produces the best quality smoke. http://www.google.com/search?q=airc...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

BANGALORE: Ever wondered why auto rickshaws emit thick white smoke whenever they halt. The reason behind this is the spiralling cost of petrol and the extended time frame for conversion of petrol-run auto rickshaws into Liquid Petrol Gas (LPG).

Most autos in the city are allegedly using the cheaper ‘white petrol’ (kerosene). Petrol costs Rs. 47 and along with oil one has to shell out Rs. 53, while white petrol is only Rs. 24 per litre in the grey market.
http://bangalorebuzz.blogspot.com/2005/08/white-petrol-makes-for-black-smoke-and.html

The reason you need to do this is that the valve of a pressure kerosene stove has to be heated before you light the stove. If you fail to do this, all of your pumping will only have resulted in a spurt of kerosene pouring out of the burner, accompanied by a puff of white smoke and, you guessed it, the smell of kerosene. http://www.sailblogs.com/member/alexmorton/

You can even drive away your woo-woo with a model choo-choo:

When getting up steam on kerosene-soaked charcoal, a prodigious amount of smoke is produced, adding greatly to the ambiance.

I know you have seen the impact videos. Where is the white smoke?

​

Where is the white smoke in the lobby from the Naudet Brother's film?
With the amount of damage in the basement, one would expect to see large amounts of white smoke in and around the lobby's or at least coming out of the garage areas near ground level.

One Saturday morning Tom and I go down to the club house and decide to start up the stove, go for breakfast until the place warmed up a little, and then do a little work on our cars. It wasn't always an easy thing to do, getting that contraption started. Some of the guys seemed to have a knack for starting the thing. You needed to heat and evaporate the kerosene to start the combustion process. ...About an hour later we return to the garage and enter through the door. The whole place is full of white smoke. I don't mean a little white smoke, I mean a lot. You couldn't even see your hand in front of your face. The salamander is puffing away with pulses of flames in the tub, and goops of that white smoke pouring from its stack. It was the only thing you could see inside the garage. I carefully walked over to the monster and put my foot on the air vent on the fill cap to the tub. I quickly open and close the vent. The thing backfires, and all of a sudden, the garage fills with a big fireball. It goes out instantly and the air in the garage is as clear as a bell.
http://www.draglist.com/HemiHunter/pistonpushers.htm

 

[gumboot]

You do know the difference between a liquid and a gas correct?
Where was the fuel dumped? Besides, we are talking about the jetfuel vapor (gas form), not the fuel itself (liquid form). So according to you, the jet fuel placed in the jet is white to begin with? Everytime I filled the old kerosene heater, the kerosene was clear liquid form.

Um... I don't want to speak for beachnut, but he was a KC-135 Stratotanker pilot instructor for the USAF. I would imagine any fuel dumping he saw would have been at altitude, and thus in vapour form. And for what it's worth, jet fuel is dyed - as are all fuels - to distinguish between them. Gasoline is dyed pink, and I think jet fuel is dyed purple, but I could be wrong on that.

Where is the white smoke in the lobby from the Naudet Brother's film? With the amount of damage in the basement, one would expect to see large amounts of white smoke in and around the lobby's or at least coming out of the garage areas near ground level.

It's funny that you mention the Naudet brothers. I am sure you know about the damage they witnessed in the lobby of WTC1 from the fireball that erupted from the elevators?

-Gumboot

 

[Gravy]

By the way, Swing, I searched for, found, excerpted, linked, and posted all that information in under 36 minutes. Why are you unable to find such information at all?

It's amazing how much you won't find when you're not looking for it.

 

[gumboot]

Oh by the way... special effects people in New Zealand produce thick white smoke for the film industry using... you guessed it... kerosene.

If you ever see a (terrible) film called "Terror Peak" all of the white smoke in that film was produced using kerosene and heat.

-Gumboot

 

[Gravy]

If you ever see a (terrible) film called "Terror Peak" all of the white smoke in that film was produced using kerosene and heat.

Sounds like [SIZE=-1]Ruapehu! There seems to be a theme to today's posts.[/SIZE]

 

[kookbreaker]

No, I'm stating there wasn't kerosene vapor at all and that kerosene smoke when burnt is not white.

I may be late to the party but, WRONG!

 

[gumboot]

Sounds like [SIZE=-1]Ruapehu! There seems to be a theme to today's posts.[/SIZE]

It's a terrible terrible American made-for-TV movie. But fortunately I was working 2nd Unit which is all stunts and special effects, so we had heaps of fun.

-Gumboot

 

[CHF]

I'm viewing the event within the official story. I could say that but can I prove that? No. I have already listed a potential suspect below.

Forget the official story. You think it's BS, remember?

So tell us what you think happened.

 

[Swing Dangler]

By the way, Swing, I searched for, found, excerpted, linked, and posted all that information in under 36 minutes. Why are you unable to find such information at all?It's amazing how much you won't find when you're not looking for it.

I searched using jetfuelA and vaporization.
Does kerosene have the exact chemical composition as jetfuel A?

Kerosene added to charcole to produce white smoke in your attempt at humor is an invalid example as to my knowledge there was no charcoal present in the stairwell where Ed McCabe saw the white smoke.

I stand corrected on the production of white smoke created from the process of the vaporizaton of kerosene in smoke generators.
However, did you read the details and the components necessary to create the vaporization process or just some links posted? And how in your right mind can you transfer those processess to the WTC: North Tower?
If you would, layout the scenario using the processes of vaporization to apply to the white smoke in the sublevels of WTC: North Tower I would greatly appreciate it.
Please include the ratio of oxygen to jetfuelA vapor, the saturation level of fuel in comparision to the level of vapor as well, and the appropriate temperatures associated with the production of the vapor.

Thankyou as well for dodging my other comments and questions to you.

Gravy-The thing backfires, and all of a sudden, the garage fills with a big fireball. It goes out instantly and the air in the garage is as clear as a bell.

With no mention of damaged walls, windows blown out, burns to the people, etc..you know damage matching what was seen in the lobby and in the basement. Not a whole lot of over pressure in your example there nor any damage discussed by the folks who encountered a whole garage full of white smoke that created a fireball.

 

[CHF]

By the way, Swing, I searched for, found, excerpted, linked, and posted all that information in under 36 minutes. Why are you unable to find such information at all?

It's amazing how much you won't find when you're not looking for it.

You should have seen the time on SLC when I challenged him to contact engineers.

I ended up having to Google "engineering firms" for him. The very first hit was filled with the very contact info that Swing couldn't be bothered finding himself.

Even if 911 was an inside job the perps would have little to fear with such lazy researchers on their trail.