Does anyone else back up William Rodriguez's story?

No need for insults, i believe my reading and comprehension is just fine.

According to the blueprints, the portion of the refrigeration plant that was outside the building, was the entire refrigeration plant.

If my reading and comprehension is lacking, would you kindly point out to me, where the portion of the refrigeration plant within the footprint is located.
 
Holy crap, man, did you not read my previous post? And do you not understand that the towers had refrigeration equipment in their basements? You can even find photos of them on the internet.

We're done. Your reading comprehension is abysmal.
 
no blueprints from the WTC have ever been released, unless I am very much mistaken.

The recently released drawings were architectural plans.

-Gumboot
 
Holy crap, man, did you not read my previous post? And do you not understand that the towers had refrigeration equipment in their basements? You can even find photos of them on the internet.

We're done. Your reading comprehension is abysmal.

I can see perfectly well where the refrigeration plants are in the basement. They are located between WTC 1 & 2.

Please refer to the "architectural plans" titled, "FloorPlanAtElevations250And253B5Level", "FloorPlanAtElevation264B4Level", and "FloorPlanAtElevation274B3Level"
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/frames.html

I don't doubt there are photos of the refrigeration plant.

Evidence that there were refrigeration plant/s within the footprint of B4?
 
How many times do you have to be told, eyewitness testimony is not empirical evidence.
Again, do you have any empirical evidence that every vehicle entering the garage and basement levels since 1993 was sniffed by bomb sniffing dogs? Alt, you realize that this eyewitness helps my case, correct? The PA was there in 1993 as he states and still a truck bomb was detonated in the basement. Also, the individual in the report was in the South Tower area, not the North Tower.
Not only that, you may want to examine the article below of how Middle Eastern man who attempted to get a fake driver's license had access to the 6 sub levels of the towers.

I stand corrected, the K-9 Explosive Unit was not formed until 1996.

If you want to know if every truck that entered the WTC truck dock was inspected and sniffed by a dog, why don't you contact the Port Authority Police Department and ask them? Being a police department I'm sure they keep all sorts of records and reports. Or are you the type of "truther" that only investigoogles?

In regard to the "Sakher 'Rocky' Hammad" story, there was no proof of any terrorist activity on his part. Do you think his presence in the building was suspcious just because he is Middle Eastern? He had a visitor's pass, thousands of people obtained them everyday. Where's the evidence of a connection between 9/11 and the fraudulent driver's license case?

Salon said:
Hammad's trouble began when FBI agents received a tip that Katherine Smith, a local DMV employee, would be selling fraudulent driver's licenses to some Middle Eastern men who had driven there from New York. (Tennessee, which does not require applicants to provide Social Security numbers, has become a favorite destination for people in search of false IDs.) On Feb. 5, the agents swooped in on Hammad and his colleagues, who were in the process of applying for licenses at the Memphis testing station where Smith worked.


Virtually all of the government's suspicion about Hammad's possible terrorist links revolved around a single piece of paper found in his wallet: a visitor's pass for the World Trade Center dated Sept. 5. FBI agent Bolds says the finding was "startling." The New York Times called it "alarming." Again and again investigators and journalists used the pass to prop up the story, without ever explaining why the pass would be of any real importance.
 
transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0110/06/lklw.00.html

Yes, like I said...

me said:
None of Ms. Cruz, Mr. Lever, Mr. Delbianco, or Mr. Griffith (not "Griffin") say that there were bombs or explosives emanating from the sub-basement levels, nor do any of them say that there were explosions prior to the airplane hitting the tower.

Ms. Cruz was in the elevator with Mr. Griffith. Both she and Mr. Griffith describe fire coming down the elevator shaft after the elevator fell several floors. Neither describes any explosions occurring prior to the airplane striking the tower, nor do they describe any explosions coming from below.

The quote you cited does not contradict what I wrote.
 
Yours.

Something special in my world? Now, now lets not attack the person as the moderators have asked, but instead attack the arguement. See you have missed part of the discussion. You need to read Gravy's source on white smoke in relation to kerosene.

-Empirical evidence? I can't provide any of that as if there were it was destroyed in the collapse. However, if empirical evidence is your response, why then do you accept a fireball without empirical evidence?

Because we know that jets carry jet fuel.
 
There's this bit of nonsense from you:
You realise that you are automatically assuming that kerosene vapor will result in an instant explosion, right? Well, let's say you hav an ingition source, but is your oxygen percentage enough to cause a burn? You premise seems to be that the existance of white smoke, if it is not burnt Kerosene, must automatically explode. That's a false assumption.
White smoke according to Gravy was kerosene vapor. Vapor in order to form, has to have a surfact hot enough to place kerosene on it to form a white vapor. According to Ed, the explosion took place, a stairwell door blew open and out rolled white smoke with no further explosion from the theory that the smoke is kerosene vapor, as per Gravy's paper. Apparently you ignored both articles that mention nothing of white color in regards to jet fuel vapor. How does an explosion in a stairwell supposedly from kerosene vapor, create keroesene vapor???

Because we know that jets carry jet fuel.
Yes, and two miracles have to happen for that jet fuel to reach the basement to cause the damage witnessed and described. You believe in miracles in regards to this event, and I don't.


1) McCabe says he was in tower 1.
2) McCabe says he was about 30 feet from the door that blew.
3) McCabe says that just beyond that door was the field office.
4) McCabe says that the people in the field office were burned: "I can smell their burnt flesh."
5) McCabe says that smoke was being drawn up the elevator shaft: "the smoke was being sucked up the shaft now" I think you know that the elevators were in the center of the building, not outside it.
6) The field office was across from the freight elevator.
And you forgot those workers, secretaries to be exact, said a bomb went off in their office. Did you leave that portion out of his account by accident or on purpose? Perhaps you could provide a graphic of the sublevels and place on the plan where you think all of the witnesses were located.
I have repeatedly asked you to justify these statements, and have repeatedly called them straw man arguments. I'm asking you to think about what you write.
Here is how I justify the statement. You contend that people who saw a fire ball near the impact level prove a fireball traveled to the basement to cause the destruction there. You content that people who saw a fireball in the basement support that a fireball came from the impact zone. Correct me if I'm wrong so far. Therefore, I'm asking did anyone see the fireball from the impact zone that traveled to the sub-levels? To my knowledge, no. Your assumption, unless I'm mistaken, is that because people saw a fireball near the impact zone and people saw a fireball in the basement, that the fireball came from the same source. In order for that to happen, two miracles have to take place. Arturo Griffith lived and is not burnt by the fireball that traveled down Car 50 to the basement below sub-1. And his wife lived so that a fireball could do the damage in sub-1. Not only that, there is no calculation provided by NIST or any other expert agency that proves a fireball caused the damage. No ratio of air to fuel. No psi calculations, just assumptons. In fact, they made lots of assumptions to determine how much fire burned off and how much didn't in the original impact.
If you want to know if every truck that entered the WTC truck dock was inspected and sniffed by a dog, why don't you contact the Port Authority Police Department and ask them?
According to the story below, all documents and records were destroyed.

Gravy, I've repeatedly asked you to point out the errors that you stated I made in my analysis. Will you be doing that anytime soon?
In regards to your strawman:
Gravy since Gumbot got to the claimed straw before me:
Let me see if I understand your position:
So jetfuelA travels all the way the way to the basement in Car 50 shaft to at least sub-4 after impact and initial explosion. Jetfuel travels all the way down Car 6's shaft after the impact and initial explosion.
All of this occurs after the initial impact explosion and remains unignited?
The fuel remains in liquid form even after Mrs. Arturo's terrible burning experience in her elevator car 6 and travels down the shaft unignited. Somehow the shafts are already hot enough to produce kerosene vapor in the form of white smoke but still doesn't ignite. The kerosene vapor travels out of the shaft and into a stairwell to be witnessed by Ed after the door explodes open.
Somehow, it ignites more than once with enough energy to cause two partial collapses at B-4 and the PATH plaza, destroys a parking garage, destroys an office room, knocks people down, burns people, reminds people of the 1993 truck bombing or bombs, and apparently the cause for the FBI's initial working hypothesis that terrorists used a car or truck packed with explosives. That is your excuse for calling stawman? Can anyone say "Razor"?

See? Even a twoofer can spot the idiocy of basement bombs in a top-down collapse.
Strawman! Your including the event in the basement near impact time with the top down collapse. I've yet to state I think it caused the collapse initiaition which of course I don't content that. Some twoofers contend that a beam weapon brought down the towers to, that doesn't mean I agree with them.
In regard to the "Sakher 'Rocky' Hammad" story, there was no proof of any terrorist activity on his part. Do you think his presence in the building was suspcious just because he is Middle Eastern? He had a visitor's pass, thousands of people obtained them everyday. Where's the evidence of a connection between 9/11 and the fraudulent driver's license case?
Obtaining a driver's license is not a terrorist activity to my knowledge.
You need to read the multiple press reports on Rocky. A suitable question would be who signed his work pass that allowed him access to all sublevels. He was working for Magic Plumbing or at least that was what his business card had on it. He stated he was working on sprinkler systems on September 5th. However, PA states that they work on the sprinkler systems so he could have been working for a tenet. They have no record of Rocky's presence in the building do to the collapse. His ethnic profile fits that of the terrorists that attacked the building in 1993 and 2001. He also had a cousin with him during his arrest for the driver's license fraud. The woman accused of helping him had apparently help the men obtained man licenses for "cousins" of Rocky's. And she was murdered in a fiery crash before serving as a witness.
You do understand that the descripton of the press being destroyed could simply mean it was knocked over or buried by debris, right?
A press that is knocked over doesn't mean it is destroyed. Have you contacted him to determine what exactly he meant, instead of interpeting his statment?
Gravy in your paper you felt the need to interpet the statements regarding the press and insert them into the witness account. Is there any reason why you did that instead of letting the statement stand as is? Was it to try to lessen the extent of damage for the reader?

What was the point of this basement bomb?
Who planted it?
In theory alone as I'm not an expert I suggest to weaken the core, to reduce resistance of the sublevels, to try to kill as many people as possible, to hamper fire rescue operations, to split rescue response, to destroy evacuation routes.
Who planted it? So far the only possible suspect is Sakher 'Rocky' Hammadly that I've come across and perhaps his relatives.
 
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NIST or any other expert agency that proves a fireball caused the damage. No ratio of air to fuel. No psi calculations, just assumptons. In fact, they made lots of assumptions to determine how much fire burned off and how much didn't in the original impact.



NIST wrote an entire paper in which they calculated how much fuel was burned in the fireball from UA175's impact.

Th explosions in the basement were not from a conventional bomb. The injuries and damage reported are not consistent with a bomb. They are consistent with a FAE. You can assume that terrorists planted a FAE in the elevator shafts of the basement, and just happened to detonate it at the same time as the aircraft impacts (roughly), or you can choose to apply Occam's Razor, realise that jet-liner fuel explosions were reported around elevators at dozens of levels in the building, and conclude that the basement explosions were also caused by jetliners.

One of these conclusions is scientific. One is not.

-Gumboot
 

1) McCabe says he was in tower 1.




1) McCabe says he was in tower 1.


This is your only evidence that McCabe was in a refrigeration plant within the footprint of WTC 1?

If you note that the big refrigeration plant on B4 has a doorway on the perimeter of WTC 1, would it not be likely that once you step through that door from WTC 1, that you would still refer to that plant room as a WTC 1 plantroom?

Are people who describe parking in the WTC 1 car park mistaken? Should that be evidence that their are car parks within the WTC 1 footprint?

Your evidence is, McCabe says he was in tower 1.


Floor plans show the refrigeration plant room was outside the footprint of WTC 1. Floor plans show no refrigeration plant in the WTC 1 footprint.

McCabe describes going up and down stairs to the plantroom. Besides the fire stairs, there are no stairs anywhere near freight car 50. McCabe does not describe going between floors to the plantroom, he describes the office and the plantroom as being on B4, therefore we must assume their is a split level on the same floor. The large refrigeration plant outside the WTC 1 footprint has a different level than B4 accessed by stair K-13.

McCabe describes walking office workers through the plant to the PATH platform. This can be done via the refrigeration platform outside the WTC 1 footprint. Regardless, if you wish to assume there is another plantroom within the footprint of WTC 1, which is not shown on the floor plans, then you must also assume it is adjoining the PATH platform. There is no such place.
 
Yes, just as soon as you read for comprehension what Alt+F4 said and understand how the sources provided do, in fact, confirm what Alt+F4 said. No, the sources (plural) that I provided are not "a survey" but are further evidence of the measures that were undertaken after the 1993 bombing at the WTC.

Your first source:
Security Management surveys high-profile properties to find out.
It included a nice table at the end showing the survey's results as well. I await your retraction or greater reading comprehension on your part.

Here is snip from the other article.
recorded by
surveillance cameras; * detected by vehicle ground loop detectors; * controlled by manned, bullet-resistant guard booths, motorized gate arms and anti-ram barriers; and * read by proximity card and electronic vehicle identification (EVI) tag readers. And that's just for starters. If a vehicle stalls, or fails to arrive at its assigned parking space within a predetermined amount of time, a special program will alert the main security command station as well as satellite command centers. If the vehicle proceeds right to its assigned parking area, it will pass still a third security station and another EVI reader that regulates parking lot capacity loading and vehicle reallocation when one lot is full. If the security system picks up an irregularity, the vehicle will not be able to enter or exit the underground parking complex.
So a truck or car packed with explosives can make its way into the sublevels as long as it isn't acting or doing anything "suspicious". Although I'm not sure of the location, we know that bomb sniffing dogs were abruptly removed from
the complex.
The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday. Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.
"Today was the first day there was not the extra security," Coard said. "We were protecting below. We had the ground covered. We didn't figure they would do it with planes. There is no way anyone could have stopped that."
NewYork Newsday

This abrutp removal of bomb sniffing dogs began the day after Rocky has his visitor/work pass to work on sprinklers.
 
NIST wrote an entire paper in which they calculated how much fuel was burned in the fireball from UA175's impact.
-Gumboot

The discussion at this point is centered on WTC 1 not WTC 2. But thanks for the input! What I find interesting about their anaysis in regards to WTC 1 and fuel burned is this assumption directly from NIST:
Start by assuming that the only air available for burning was already present when the aircraft struck. This is a plausible assumption given
the short time period available.
They calculated the amount of air on a single floor and multiplied it by 4 floors.

Do you see anything that NIST left out of the assumption in regards to the amount of available oxygen for fuel? The left out the oxygen source from the ENTIRE HOLE FROM THE PLANE. I'm not an expert, but I find this a terrible assumption to calculate the amount of fuel was burned.
 
The discussion at this point is centered on WTC 1 not WTC 2. But thanks for the input! What I find interesting about their anaysis in regards to WTC 1 and fuel burned is this assumption directly from NIST:

They calculated the amount of air on a single floor and multiplied it by 4 floors.

Do you see anything that NIST left out of the assumption in regards to the amount of available oxygen for fuel? The left out the oxygen source from the ENTIRE HOLE FROM THE PLANE. I'm not an expert, but I find this a terrible assumption to calculate the amount of fuel was burned.


Always the same assumption: hundreds of professional scientists and engineers overlook something so obvious that a scientific illiterate can spot it at a glance. What enables you to excel so many highly intelligent and superbly educated people? Do your insights spring from a natural or a supernatural source?
 
They calculated the amount of air on a single floor and multiplied it by 4 floors.

Do you see anything that NIST left out of the assumption in regards to the amount of available oxygen for fuel? The left out the oxygen source from the ENTIRE HOLE FROM THE PLANE. I'm not an expert, but I find this a terrible assumption to calculate the amount of fuel was burned.

I'm gonna say the jet wake would effectively close that hole. There might even be reason to believe 4 floors of air was an overestimate. Take a closer look at how the fire ball erupts from the South tower.
 
White smoke according to Gravy was kerosene vapor. Vapor in order to form, has to have a surfact hot enough to place kerosene on it to form a white vapor. According to Ed, the explosion took place, a stairwell door blew open and out rolled white smoke with no further explosion from the theory that the smoke is kerosene vapor, as per Gravy's paper. Apparently you ignored both articles that mention nothing of white color in regards to jet fuel vapor. How does an explosion in a stairwell supposedly from kerosene vapor, create keroesene vapor???

Again, you make too many assumptions. The smoke could have been from burned kerosene, it could have been from kerosene vapor. Without photos or really detailed descriptions we will never know for certain.

Let's look at both posibililties:

The Smoke Was From Burned Kerosene: This seems to have not even been considered by you. Why is that? Kerosene smoke is especially produced when it is not conbusted at higher temperatures (such as in a jet engine). The kerosene explosion would very likely not have been anywhere near 100% efficiency, would leave both smoke from the burned kerosene, and odor from the unburned kerosene.


The Smoke Was Kersone Vapor: Your complaint here would seem to be that since the Kerosene Vapor had just ignited, that therefore no further Kerosene Vapor could be in the stairwell. This is faulty thinking. It assumes that the Kerosene explosion was 100% efficient which is extremely unlikely. A kerosene explosion would be enough to cause the door to burst open, and would easily heat a remainder to a vapor without automatically igniting it (due to low oxygen supply, lack of heat or other conditions). Given the random nature of the FAE in the shafts, this is a posibility.

These circumstances are not only possible, but probable. Certainly they are much more likely than your complaints, which assume a 100% efficient consumption of the fuel.
 
JUst out of curiosity, what sort of explosive device creates a fireball anyway? I know that they do on TV and in movies, but that's because they use gasoline. I mean a real explosive device like is being claimed to have been used in the WRC basement.
 
Strawman! Your including the event in the basement near impact time with the top down collapse. I've yet to state I think it caused the collapse initiaition which of course I don't content that. Some twoofers contend that a beam weapon brought down the towers to, that doesn't mean I agree with them.

I never said you claimed it was the collapse initiation, Swing. I merely point out that a basement bomb is pointless. You prove this here:

In theory alone as I'm not an expert I suggest to weaken the core, to reduce resistance of the sublevels, to try to kill as many people as possible, to hamper fire rescue operations, to split rescue response, to destroy evacuation routes.

Weaken the core - You mean the same core that stood after the collapse? The area where survivors were found?

Reduce resistance of the sublevels - so the bad guys were afraid the collapse would not proceed past ground level? Is that what you're saying?

Kill people - yet it burned them instead. And smelled like kerosene.

Hamper rescue ops - so you also think the bad guys will kill thousands with planes yet are gonna throw in a risky basement bomb for the sake of a few more???

No wonder you tried to avoid presenting a logical reason for this basement bomb.

Who planted it? So far the only possible suspect is Sakher 'Rocky' Hammadly that I've come across and perhaps his relatives.

I'd have a lot more respect for you if you just stated what you think. Be a man and say it, Swing: government demolition squads blew up the WTC sub-levels. Why this childish reluctance on your part?
 

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