Does anyone else back up William Rodriguez's story?

[bje]

BJE, I don't recall you offering any answer to the question.

I rest my case.

 

[hard lines]

There was a partial collapse in the concourse after the south tower was hit, which trapped Will Jimeno, John McLoughlin & Co. A fireball accompanied the collapse. For the blast on the B4 level, read my Rodriguez paper, particularly Ed McCabe's account, who describes it happening about 30 seconds after he noticed the movement of the building. And note the damage there across the hall from the #50 elevator.

Whilst McCabe describes an explosion about 30 seconds after he notcied the building moving, he does not see a fireball.

On the other hand we have an account from Griffith who did see a fireball, not 30 seconds after impact....
But after his elevator car had fallen and come to a halt, after he had experienced 2 explosions, after (he believes) he was unconscious for a couple of minutes, after he was rescued, after he told his rescuers their was another person in the car, after his rescuers had rescued Marlene Cruz, and the finally seconds after Cruz is rescued he witnesses a fireball.

Griffith was located within seconds of this fireball and did not describe being blown away by it. McCabe was in a refrigeration plant, nowhere near this freight elevator and witnesses a door being blown off.

 

[hard lines]

Jet-A fuel, which is essentially kerosene. You aren't disputing that there was a lot of it in the towers after the plane impacts, are you?

Also, if you're just trolling, you should stop. It isn't funny or mature.

Which is essentially less volatile than avgas.

Just stating the facts.

 

[Gravy]

This quote is interesting, it describes what appears to be David Felipe stepping out of an elevator car. Although David Felipe himself says he was only in front of the car, if he were in the car, which lift car would it be? Car 50 was occupied by Griffith, and according to NIST 6 & 7 were out of order. There were no other cars which extended to the impact zone, and therefore could not have been a route for the fireball.

Or it could have been someone else. Or perhaps Johannemann thought David had come from the elevator, but he saw him stumbling near it after being burned. (In another quote he describes dragging the man out of the elevator, so I don't think that's the case.)

You make the same mistake as Swing Dangler when you speak about cars 6&7 and the fireball traveling down the elevator shaft. It's a straw man argument. Do you know why? Also, have you read my paper on this subject? It may clear up some misconceptions of yours.

 

[Gravy]

Which is essentially less volatile than avgas.

Just stating the facts.

Do you dispute that there was jet fuel in the elevator shafts, and that people in the basements (and on many other levels) smelled kerosene and saw white smoke immediately after the blast? Can you present any fact that is inconsistent with the basement blasts being caused by the jet fuel?

 

[hard lines]

Or it sould have been someone else. Or perhaps Johannemann thought David had come from the elevator, but he saw him stumbling near it after being burned.

You make the same mistake as Swing Dangler when you speak about cars 6&7 and the fireball traveling down the elevator shaft. It's a straw man argument. Do you know why? Also, have you read my paper on this subject? It may clear up some misconceptions of yours.

Can you explain how the jet fuel poured down the elevator shafts besides 6, 7, and 50?

I have read some of your paper (including your elevator shaft continuity), you've done some nice work.

From the elevator shaft continuity section,

Several of the large express passenger elevators, which service the sky lobbies, plunged to the main lobby level. At least one of those falling elevators was accompanied by a huge fireball that burst into the lobby and concourse levels. Only four people are known to have survived in the south tower express elevators.

Do you have a source?
Or can you explain how elevator shafts that were below impact zone plunged to the main lobby?

 

[gumboot]

Can you explain how the jet fuel poured down the elevator shafts besides 6, 7, and 50?

I have read some of your paper (including your elevator shaft continuity), you've done some nice work.

From the elevator shaft continuity section,



Do you have a source?
Or can you explain how elevator shafts that were below impact zone plunged to the main lobby?

Er... because the aircraft hit the floors with all of the machinery that operated them...

-Gumboot

 

[hard lines]

Do you dispute that there was jet fuel in the elevator shafts, and that people in the basements (and on many other levels) smelled kerosene and saw white smoke immediately after the blast?

No

Can you present any fact that is inconsistent with the basement blasts being caused by the jet fuel?

see post #202

 

[hard lines]

South tower, yes.

 

[gumboot]

One thing that's important to point out, because a lot of newer poster here seem to be making this mistake...

The fuel did not explode into a fireball, and then that fireball went down the elevator shafts.

The evidence suggests (and it is NIST's conclusion) that the jet fuel spilled down elevator shafts and then ignited once in the shafts.

There is no reason to think it all ignited at exactly the same time.

Kerosene will not fireball unless it aerosols into a very narrow range of fuel-air ratio.

-Gumboot

 

[Gravy]

Hard Lines, I apologize for suggesting that you may be a troll. When I saw your avgas comment I thought you were about to argue that there was no aviation fuel in the towers. That's my hasty reaction after dealing with a troll in another thread.

I spent a lot of time on the Rodriguez paper. The answers to your questions are in it, but you have to read it to find them. I'm not going to waste my time responding to people who haven't read the whole thing. I'll be glad to answer any questions if there are issues you don't understand after you've read it.

 

[Gravy]

One thing that's important to point out, because a lot of newer poster here seem to be making this mistake...

The fuel did not explode into a fireball, and then that fireball went down the elevator shafts.

The evidence suggests (and it is NIST's conclusion) that the jet fuel spilled down elevator shafts and then ignited once in the shafts.

There is no reason to think it all ignited at exactly the same time.

Kerosene will not fireball unless it aerosols into a very narrow range of fuel-air ratio.

-Gumboot

DingDingDingDing!

Gumboot has correctly answered my "straw man" accusation, although I was hoping that SwingDangler or Hard Lines would think about it, read about it, and come up with the answers themselves. (Or read my paper.)

 

[Gravy]

McCabe was in a refrigeration plant, nowhere near this freight elevator

Your evidence that he was nowhere near the elevator shafts, please.

 

[hard lines]

One thing that's important to point out, because a lot of newer poster here seem to be making this mistake...

The fuel did not explode into a fireball, and then that fireball went down the elevator shafts.

The evidence suggests (and it is NIST's conclusion) that the jet fuel spilled down elevator shafts and then ignited once in the shafts.

There is no reason to think it all ignited at exactly the same time.

Kerosene will not fireball unless it aerosols into a very narrow range of fuel-air ratio.

-Gumboot

If Griffith's account is accurate, then the fireball he witnessed came much later than many other witness accounts of explosions. The fuel fireball came minutes after impact.

 

[hard lines]

Hard Lines, I apologize for suggesting that you may be a troll. When I saw your avgas comment I thought you were about to argue that there was no aviation fuel in the towers. That's my hasty reaction after dealing with a troll in another thread.

I spent a lot of time on the Rodriguez paper. The answers to your questions are in it, but you have to read it to find them. I'm not going to waste my time responding to people who haven't read the whole thing. I'll be glad to answer any questions if there are issues you don't understand after you've read it.

No offense taken.

I have read what i believe to be, the relevant areas of your paper.

 

[hard lines]

Your evidence that he was nowhere near the elevator shafts, please.

Please refer to the recently released blueprints and the location of the refrigeration plant room on B4

 

[Gravy]

Please refer to the recently released blueprints and the location of the refrigeration plant room on B4

See, that's what you get for not reading my paper. McCabe said that just beyond the door that blew was Turner's field office, where several workers were burned. And where was Turner's field office? Across from the freight elevator.

 

[CHF]

So far, CHF, I'm not too impressed. I was hoping to come away from here convinced it wasn't an explosive device, but instead I'm even more convinced!

Right. Cuz you're a zealot.

Let's try again, shall we?

What was the point of this basement bomb?

Who planted it?

 

[hard lines]

I maintain that McCabe witnessed a door blown off whilst McCabe was nowhere near the freight elevator.

McCabe himself, if he was in the refrigeration room, was outside the footprint of WTC 1. Despite the fact that the door opened to an office which inturn opened to the area of the freight elevator. The door in question was located on the perimieter of the WTC 1 footprint.

In comparison with where Griffith was (within visual of the fireball), McGrabe was miles away.

 

[Gravy]

I maintain that McCabe witnessed a door blown off whilst McCabe was nowhere near the freight elevator.

McCabe himself, if he was in the refrigeration room, was outside the footprint of WTC 1. Despite the fact that the door opened to an office which inturn opened to the area of the freight elevator. The door in question was located on the perimieter of the WTC 1 footprint.

In comparison with where Griffith was (within visual of the fireball), McGrabe was miles away.

You can maintain all you want. If you choose to believe that McCabe was in the portion of the refrigeration plant that was outside the building, as opposed to the part the was inside the building, then you've got some reading comprehension problems.

1) McCabe says he was in tower 1.
2) McCabe says he was about 30 feet from the door that blew.
3) McCabe says that just beyond that door was the field office.
4) McCabe says that the people in the field office were burned: "I can smell their burnt flesh."
5) McCabe says that smoke was being drawn up the elevator shaft: "the smoke was being sucked up the shaft now" I think you know that the elevators were in the center of the building, not outside it.
6) The field office was across from the freight elevator.

Sorry, but we have more than enough conspiracists here who "maintain" whatever strikes their fancy, the evidence be damned. Please take that sad act elsewhere. As I said, this information is in my paper. I can't make you read it, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't waste people's time like this.