Libertarian Hero Ron Paul Blames US for 9/11

[Oliver]

I see you've now adopted the CT tactic of putting words in people's mouths they've not said.

Nope, it was his twoofer argument to say something stupid like: "3000 soldiers died in Iraq, therefore Bush is a bad leader" - that's exactly the way Twoofers are twisting single parts ignoring the bigger picture, isn't it?

And I was right about your Denial - it's the same tactic Holocaust Denier use to have. Just accepting things that fit into their world-view.

 

[Oliver]

Hmmmm, what could have happened after 1989 that wasn't Saddam's fault? Oh yeah, the US forced him to invade Kuwait...

Should have just kept to gassing Kurdish villages in his own country, using the chemicals and equipment that Germany sold to him.

While there was a big outcry here in germany about this involvement from these industries and the government stopped these holes per legislation, America doesn't have such Outcries, mainly because the Media ignores such things. I'm still trying to find out why your media is so biased, especially in War Times. There might be much more influence from the Government than I can imagine right now.

Anyway: Iraq isn't about Humans. It wasn't about an evil Dictator in sense of Humanity. It was about global strategy, also Oil - especially in the first gulf war.

And even if I know that you know this, too. It's funny that you choose to ignore these Issues because it doesn't fit in your patriotic world view.

Now Ron Paul had the guts to bring it up. And even if you disagree - I appreciate that someone actually stands up and says something that includes the rest of the world, too - instead talking about gays, "manmade climate change", Creationists and Hillary's new Haircut.

 

[WildCat]

And I was right about your Denial - it's the same tactic Holocaust Denier use to have. Just accepting things that fit into their world-view.

Nonsense Oliver. You posted the article that claimed 70,000 (uper end estimate) Iraqi deaths from the war, and another claiming nearly 10 times that. I've been asking you from the beginning to decide which figure you're going to adhere to, and you keep using whichever one makes the US look bad at he time.

So am I to believe you're now disavowing the Iraq Body Count number, and from now on ony the Lancet estimate is accurate according to you?

 

[mr rosewater]

Nope, it was his twoofer argument to say something stupid like: "3000 soldiers died in Iraq, therefore Bush is a bad leader" - that's exactly the way Twoofers are twisting single parts ignoring the bigger picture, isn't it?

And I was right about your Denial - it's the same tactic Holocaust Denier use to have. Just accepting things that fit into their world-view.

Did you get any sleep last night I simply don't know what your on about. Its really hard to believe the education statement about Iraq based on their current behavior. I have stated my disagreement with President Bush about the war, and again we are now where we are. My fellow Americans are in harms way, my overwhelming interest is in them. Their current mission appears to be one of peace, and I'm very hopeful they succeed.

 

[WildCat]

While there was a big outcry here in germany about this involvement from these industries and the government stopped these holes per legislation,

When wwere these holes stopped Oliver?

America doesn't have such Outcries, mainly because the Media ignores such things.

Absolute garbage Oliver. The media in no way ignored this, stories abound in the US media about this. You really should stop spouting off on topics you don't understand.

I'm still trying to find out why your media is so biased, especially in War Times. There might be much more influence from the Government that I can imagine right now.

I'm again calling BS Oliver. Like a true CT, you claim a hidden government hand influencing the media - despite not having one shred of evidence. You're going way off the deep end here Oliver.

Anyway: Iraq isn't about Humans. It wasn't about an evil Dictator in sense of Humanity. It was about global strategy, also Oil - especially in the first gulf war.

No **** Sherlock. The world's economy is fueled by oil. Thus, many countries joined the effort to get Saddam out of Kuwait.

And even if I know that you know this, too. It's funny that you choose to ignore these Issues because it doesn't fit in your patriotic world view.

What issue are you talking about? The sooper-sekrit conspiracy between the government and the US media?

Now Ron Paul had the guts to bring it up. And even if you disagree - I appreciate that someone actually stands up and says something that includes the rest of the world, too - instead talking about gays, "manmade climate change", Creationists and Hillary's new Haircut.

If Ron Paul believes in the things you do he not fit for the job.

 

[Oliver]

Nonsense Oliver. You posted the article that claimed 70,000 (uper end estimate) Iraqi deaths from the war, and another claiming nearly 10 times that. I've been asking you from the beginning to decide which figure you're going to adhere to, and you keep using whichever one makes the US look bad at he time.

So am I to believe you're now disavowing the Iraq Body Count number, and from now on ony the Lancet estimate is accurate according to you?

I already told you that: Bodycount uses numbers and names from media reports but they said that MOST casualties aren't reported at all. That's when people have to estimate. Now let's say it's just 100.000 casualties for a moment: What would you think if YOU had 100.000 casualties in YOUR country?

You guys are still whining about the 3000 people on 9/11? This is pretty ignorant hypocrisy, isn't it? "We, we, me, me, us, us, I, I". That's all what this is about - also in western world in general.

You may listen to this guy here who's actually an internal US-Expert about national security and foreign policies:
(Starting about 00:02:30)

Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

 

[WildCat]

I already told you that: Bodycount uses numbers and names from media reports but they said that MOST casualties aren't reported at all. That's when people have to estimate. Now let's say it's just 100.000 casualties for a moment: What would you think if YOU had 100.000 casualties in YOUR country?

I'd think the country was taken over by dysfunctional militant religious fanatics that don't give a damn about anything civilized people care about. Kind of like what you have in Iraq, huh? The overwhelmng majority of Iraqis killed are by other Iraqis. When they decide to act like a civilized people the killings will stop, there's really not much anyone can do for them.

You guys are still whining about the 3000 people on 9/11? This is pretty ignorant hypocrisy, isn't it? "We, we, me, me, us, us, I, I". That's all what this is about - also in western world in general.

Iraq isn't the western world. The people doing the killings revel in death the way the west revels in life. I have no control over the Iraqi desire to kill off everyone who doesn't belong to their tribe/sect/ethnic group. That's their problem to deal with, and they've had that problem since before there ever was a United States.

You may listen to this guy here who's actually an internal US-Expert about national security and foreign policies:
(Starting about 00:02:30)

Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Brzezinski doesn't think we're at war? Whatever.

 

[Oliver]

I'd think the country was taken over by dysfunctional militant religious fanatics that don't give a damn about anything civilized people care about. Kind of like what you have in Iraq, huh? The overwhelmng majority of Iraqis killed are by other Iraqis. When they decide to act like a civilized people the killings will stop, there's really not much anyone can do for them.

Iraq isn't the western world. The people doing the killings revel in death the way the west revels in life. I have no control over the Iraqi desire to kill off everyone who doesn't belong to their tribe/sect/ethnic group. That's their problem to deal with, and they've had that problem since before there ever was a United States.

Brzezinski doesn't think we're at war? Whatever.

Even if I like you, Wildcat - it's sad to see that you also prefer to adopt the "Me"-View about the world. Brzezinski actually completely has the same world-view as me. Not because he's a "US-Basher" or "Euro-Trasher" but because he's actually able to understand the World from a neutral point. Your view is single-sided - in a similar way as the Truthers do - and I know you don't like it or are willing to understand it.

Give it a try and debunk his claims:

Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

 

[WildCat]

Not because he's a "US-Basher" or "Euro-Trasher" but because he's actually able to understand the World from a neutral point.

I'm not neutral. The radical Islamists don't see me as neutral either - nor do they see you as neutral. Let's hear what their dear leader has to say:

I am one of the servants of Allah. We do our duty of fighting for the sake of the religion of Allah. It is also our duty to send a call to all the people of the world to enjoy this great light and to embrace Islam and experience the happiness in Islam. Our primary mission is nothing but the furthering of this religion. ... Let not the West be taken in by those who say that Muslims choose nothing but slaughtering. Their brothers in East Europe, in Turkey and in Albania have been guided by Allah to submit to Islam and to experience the bliss of Islam. Unlike those, the European and the American people and some of the Arabs are under the influence of Jewish media. ...

They are in a religious war, on a mission from Allah. Until you submit to their religion, you are the enemy. And it won't matter if the entire budget of the US is spent on food, medicine, etc in the middle east (as you suggested earlier). Until we become Muslims we will always be the enemy.

Give it a try and debunk his claims:

Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

He has his opinions, I happen to think he's wrong.

 

[Oliver]

I'm not neutral. The radical Islamists don't see me as neutral either - nor do they see you as neutral. Let's hear what their dear leader has to say:

They are in a religious war, on a mission from Allah. Until you submit to their religion, you are the enemy. And it won't matter if the entire budget of the US is spent on food, medicine, etc in the middle east (as you suggested earlier). Until we become Muslims we will always be the enemy.

He has his opinions, I happen to think he's wrong.

I'm sorry but you're not neutral - you're prejudiced. Every message from you, Rosewater and Pardalis portrays this point of view.

While I agree that Al Qaida finally went a step further and attacked you where you can recognize them, which is in your own country, I completely disagree with your point of view that the world is a patriotic place filled with honey and milk and every Terrorists point of view has no meaning at all and solely based on religion. That's your "Twoofer-twist" to explain it.

You would think otherwise if you would see Americas interventions from their point of view. And that's your problem here:

* You fail to see both sides of an issue.
* You fail to understand why Twoofers are so paranoid.
* You fail to understand why People hate US/western civilization.
* You may fail to see the consequences in terms of global stability
* And you may also fail to see why Americas reputation dropped so drastically since the Iraq war.

And you might ignore the fact that the World was behind the US after the attacks. Even the Muslim World showed sympathy towards America. Now if you are not willing to accept Brzezinski's view - what about presidential candidate Mc Cain?

 

[mr rosewater]

You Know Oliver President Bush is partly correct, terrorism should be ended, thus his "War on Terror". Ending terrorism is a path to peace, so in some way one could consider President Bush a "Peace President"

 

[WildCat]

I'm sorry but you're not neutral - you're prejudiced. Every message from you, Rosewater and Pardalis portrays this point of view.

Recognizing the facts as they are does not make me prejudiced. Islamists as a whole are intolerant of other religions - this is undeniably true, as history and the facts show. How many churches are there in Saudi Arabia? How many Jews are left alive in Morocco? Iraq? Iran? OBL has simply decided to take the next step.

While I agree that Al Qaida finally went a step further and attacked you where you can recognize them, which is in your own country, I completely disagree with your point of view that the world is a patriotic place filled with honey and milk

You lost me with that one.

and every Terrorists point of view has no meaning at all and solely based on religion. That's your "Twoofer-twist" to explain it.

Because it is based solely on religion.

You would think otherwise if you would see Americas interventions from their point of view. And that's your problem here:

* You fail to see both sides of an issue.
* You fail to understand why Twoofers are so paranoid.
* You fail to understand why People hate US/western civilization.
* You may fail to see the consequences in terms of global stability
* And you may also fail to see why Americas reputation dropped so drastically since the Iraq war.

You confuse "fail to see" with "saw, and rejected".

And you might ignore the fact that the World was behind the US after the attacks.

Yes, they love to see us get punched in the face. They don't like it when we hit back.

Even the Muslim World showed sympathy towards America.

Must have missed that what with all the dancing in the streets and all. And the posters glamorizing the 9/11 attacks and OBL that are so popular in the Islamic world.

Now if you are not willing to accept Brzezinski's view - what about presidential candidate Mc Cain?

Oh yeah, it's all about making defense contractors rich.

 

[Oliver]

No, it's not only about contractors - the biggest question I have is:

Why is the UK state-broadcaster BBC able to make a critical coverage about the war - even if they're also in it?
Why is it and why does Americas Media fail to be neutral?
Patriotism, wrong?

And you failed to debunk my assumptions point by point:

* You fail to see both sides of an issue.
* You fail to understand why Twoofers are so paranoid.
* You fail to understand why People hate US/western civilization.
* You may fail to see the consequences in terms of global stability
* And you may also fail to see why Americas reputation dropped so drastically since the Iraq war.

So?

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

One, no he didn't. You're putting words in his mouth.

Two, he's absolutely right. The US disasterous foreign policy for the past 50 years is to blame for anti-Americanism and for 9/11.

 

[Oliver]

One, no he didn't. You're putting words in his mouth.

Two, he's absolutely right. The US disasterous foreign policy for the past 50 years is to blame for anti-Americanism and for 9/11.

Thank you for your political understanding. Where do you come from?

 

[steverino]

The US disasterous foreign policy for the past 50 years is to blame for anti-Americanism...

Oh really? What "anti-Americanism?" If everyone hates us, why do so many want in?

Total population (YEAR 2000!)
281,421,906 http://www.gcir.org/about_immigration/usmap.htm

Foreign born 31,107,889 11.1%
• Naturalized citizen 12,542,626
• Not a citizen 18,565,263
• Entered 1990 to 2000 13,178,276
• Entered before 1990 17,929,613

Also, what happened in 1957? IOW, why are we benchmarking the past 50 years specifically?

 

[steverino]

But how about the Vietnamese themselves, Vietnam as a country. You are talking about Vietnam as if it is just a topic of

The Vets
The PTSD they suffered
The children they fathered.

I am referring to Vietnam, and it's population, nothing at all to do with what the USA suffered. The USA promised reparations for the war, that have never been paid. There are still munitions and other legacies from that time damaging people in that country.

http://www.vn-agentorange.org/jdalton_20051207.html

UAP- With all due respect, you are bouncing, literally, all over the map. I was addressing your comment here:

Germany faced up to the horror of the holocaust. I don't recall seeing anything similar in regards to the US and Vietnam. (POST #333)

I specifically responded to that comment by expressing how, in my view, Americans "faced up to the horror" of Viet Nam. Now you are saying, "I am referring to the Viet Namese themselves, (not the American experience.")

 

[Darth Rotor]

I don't believe this NWO crap - but I see no other reasons for the preemtive Iraq War if there are no geo-strategic Agendas involved.

After all, the Twoofers "PNAC" document is a real document, not a Hoax to tweak the Twoofers Noses. I suggest you read the Bush-Doctrine to understand what I mean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_doctrine

Watch the Oliver style logic at work. If Kant were alive today, he would have you spanked, Herr Oliver.

Oliver Logic: Since the US intervention into Iraq was elective, and bad, the intervention into South Korea was also elective, and equally bad, and as ill advised.

(Note: for the record, the two are rather different, thanks to a great many factors, context being one of them, just like every other "intervention" Oliver has on his list.)

Check the last 30 years and note the quality of life, standard of living, and freedom in government: all improvements in South Korea.

No, let's see if the Koreans in the South would rather live under the Kim Il Sung's, or Kim Jong Il's, system, or under the "horrific mess" caused by America's elective intervention in Korea, 1950-1953, and the subsequent cease fire and alliance.

Then, do something very different. Link to www.Blizzard.com and check out the trailer about the release of Starcraft II. Announced in Seoul, South Korea.

See any trailer of similar kind from North Korea.

Better yet, stuff a frozen knockwurst up you arse, Oliver.

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

I never read much about the Vietnam War but according to Wikipedia.de...

Casualties:

Vietnam:
ca. 1 Millionen Soldaten
ca. 4 Millionen Zivilisten

USA: 58.226
Australien: 500
Neuseeland: 38

You bother checking the numbers on South Korean casualties in Viet Nam?

DR

 

[steverino]

Check the last 30 years and note the quality of life, standard of living, and freedom in government: all improvements in South Korea.

No, let's see if the Koreans in the South would rather live under the Kim Il Sung's, or Kim Jong Il's, system, or under the "horrific mess" caused by America's elective intervention in Korea, 1950-1953, and the subsequent cease fire and alliance.

DR

This is going to sound corny, Oliver, but you live in Germany. You are participating on a forum shared by voices all over the free world. Had there been no America, or American foreign policy, you'd be living under a Hitler, or Stalin, protege. While I understand that it is within our framework of freedom that you have the right to express any opinion as you see fit, this very framework was realized, due in large part, to the blood spilled, and ideals promulgated, by America.

Stating the obvious for fifty, Alex.