Libertarian Hero Ron Paul Blames US for 9/11

[a_unique_person]

I don't think the number 2,000,000 has quite sunk into the collective consciousness yet, from what I can tell, though. The revisionism of the MIA was quite prominent for a while, there, for example. 2,000,000 is not 6,000,000, but it's the same order of magnitude. I would be hoping for more of a prominent reminder of what went wrong like the memorials Germany has created in it's own country.

 

[a_unique_person]

AUP couldn't care less about Vietnam except to attempt a good U.S. bash which for him is always good fun, as far as the Holocaust reference I'm at a loss.

No, your attempts at mind reading have failed pitifully.

 

[Pardalis]

I would be hoping for more of a prominent reminder of what went wrong like the memorials Germany has created in it's own country.

http://www.visitingdc.com/memorial/vietnam-memorial-wall-picture.htm

 

[steverino]

I don't think the number 2,000,000 has quite sunk into the collective consciousness yet, from what I can tell, though. The revisionism of the MIA was quite prominent for a while, there, for example. 2,000,000 is not 6,000,000, but it's the same order of magnitude. I would be hoping for more of a prominent reminder of what went wrong like the memorials Germany has created in it's own country.

I don't know what the heck you are talking about, unless you are drunk. I spend a half hour giving you a thoughtful assessment of America's grasp at Viet Nam, and you throw statistics and junior high psychology back into the mix. Your take on this is wrong. I am being charitable, but maybe it is because you are not an American that you just don't get it.

Also, while I am sure Mr. Rosewater can fight his own battles, I would guess that, like me, he is fed up with how you soft-peddle both the Holocaust and Palestinian terror.

 

[a_unique_person]

I don't know what the heck you are talking about, unless you are drunk. I spend a half hour giving you a thoughtful assessment of America's grasp at Viet Nam, and you throw statistics and junior high psychology back into the mix. Your take on this is wrong. I am being charitable, but maybe it is because you are not an American that you just don't get it.

Also, while I am sure Mr. Rosewater can fight his own battles, I would guess that, like me, he is fed up with how you soft-peddle both the Holocaust and Palestinian terror.

I think that the Holocaust was one of the darkest blots on human history. What happened was totally unjustifiable. 6,000,000 people dying as a result of the Holocaust is hard to imagine, the number is so huge. That there is a significant attempt at revisionism these days is very worrying.

What you said was.

Then books and big budget movies started pushing their way into our psyche. Homeless Viet Nam vets, and post-tramatic stress issues started getting a lot of attention. Viet Namese children who were off-spring of soldiers became front and center in our media. IOW, the consequences of it all.

But how about the Vietnamese themselves, Vietnam as a country. You are talking about Vietnam as if it is just a topic of

The Vets
The PTSD they suffered
The children they fathered.

I am referring to Vietnam, and it's population, nothing at all to do with what the USA suffered. The USA promised reparations for the war, that have never been paid. There are still munitions and other legacies from that time damaging people in that country.

http://www.vn-agentorange.org/jdalton_20051207.html

 

[a_unique_person]

I am wondering what I did to soft-peddle the Holocaust, though. What exactly did I say?

I don't recall soft-pedalling on the Israel/Palestine conflict, either. I just try to put the point that this is a low level war with both sides committing sins.

 

[Oliver]

I am wondering what I did to soft-peddle the Holocaust, though. What exactly did I say?

I don't recall soft-pedalling on the Israel/Palestine conflict, either. I just try to put the point that this is a low level war with both sides committing sins.

I never read much about the Vietnam War but according to Wikipedia.de...

Casualties:

Vietnam:
ca. 1 Millionen Soldaten
ca. 4 Millionen Zivilisten

USA: 58.226
Australien: 500
Neuseeland: 38

 

[Oliver]

Oh. I thought that you were serious for a second. Because all you are advocating now is using a magic wand. We just *wish* everyone friendly and viola, no cold war. Tell it to the Finns. Or the Estonians. Romanians. Etc. etc.

I see a whole new foreign policy -- we simply hold 'friendly talks' at gumdrop mountain, over by the chocolate river and through the peppermint hills.

I was serious. Just look at Americas "gumdrop mountain, chocolate river and peppermint hills"-relation in the middle-east and you will see that 9/11 would never had happened if they would've invested the x-Trillions into basic supplies, education, food and such stupid things.

But there's more money in making big deals with the commercial War-Mashinery, the sponsored Politcians, it's good for the Economy and also someone has to get rid of all the old weapons that are lying around.

But I'm glad to see that your state of mind is indeed somewhere at gumdrop mountain, over by the chocolate river and through the peppermint hills.

 

[Oliver]

[/size][/i]
So then 100,000 Iraqi deaths a year prior to the war is the estimate you stand by, and not XX (which I took to mean less than 100) deaths per year?

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irak

Die Folgen des Embargos waren dramatisch: Allein 500.000 - 1.500.000 Kinder unter 14 Jahren starben bis 2005 zum Teil an Krankheiten, die vor 1990 im Irak nahezu unbekannt waren: Leukämie (wahrscheinlich durch verstrahlten Sand und Kleinstpartikeln von DU-Munition oder zerstörtem Kriegsgerät), Unterernährung, Vitaminmangel, Typhus, Cholera und durch lokale Krankheiten. - Die hohe Sterblichkeit ergibt sich aus dem andauernden Embargo und der in den Golfkriegen 1990 und 2003 nahezu völligen Zerstörung der Trink- und Abwasser-Ver-/Entsorgung, Zerstörung der Krankenhäuser, Pharmaindustrie usw. Um die Folgen des Embargos abzumildern führte die UN 1995 (Res. 986) ein Öl für Lebensmittel-Programm ein, das im Januar 2003 endete.

Rough Translation: The consequence of the Embargo were dramatic. 500,000 - 1,5 million children below 14 years died until 2005, partly from diseases that were as good as unknown in Iraq before 1990.

Leucemia (most probably from DU ammunition), undernourishment, avitaminosis, typhus, Cholera and local diseases.

The high mortality is a result of the lasting embargo and the destroyed drink- and sewage -supply/-disposal, destroyed hospital and pharmaceutical industry in the gulfwars in 1990/2003.

To reduce the impact of the embargo, the UN started the "Oil for Food" program in 1995, which ended in 2003.
____________________________________________________________________________

I wonder why there is no single word about it on Wiki US/Eng...
And yes - this sounds pretty good to make friends in the middle-east, doesn't it?

Almost makes one to ask who's doing the counting, how they are counted, where they are counted, etc etc. Then perhaps we'd gain some insight.

Well, they have a Website with these informations:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

The meddling in the Spanish Civil War is more analogous.

I was talking about the Unjustified factor.

 

[WildCat]

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irak



Rough Translation: The consequence of the Embargo were dramatic. 500,000 - 1,5 million children below 14 years died until 2005, partly from diseases that were as good as unknown in Iraq before 1990.

So you're claiming ~100,000 deaths a year prior to the invasion.

Leucemia (most probably from DU ammunition),

Now you're off into woo-woo land. There is no evidence for this claim at all.

The high mortality is a result of the lasting embargo and the destroyed drink- and sewage -supply/-disposal, destroyed hospital and pharmaceutical industry in the gulfwars in 1990/2003.

Was it? Or was it because Saddam had other priorities - like building palaces and statues? Funny how he found billions of dollars for those things, isn't it? Even during the 1990's...

To reduce the impact of the embargo, the UN started the "Oil for Food" program in 1995, which ended in 2003.

The proceeds of which went in the pockets of Saddam's family and cronies.

Well, they have a Website with these informations:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Which has the count at 70,000 now. So by this standard, the invasion has saved ~75,000 lives a year, right?

 

[mr rosewater]

By Oliver,

Rough Translation: The consequence of the Embargo were dramatic. 500,000 - 1,5 million children below 14 years died until 2005, partly from diseases that were as good as unknown in Iraq before 1990.

Leucemia (most probably from DU ammunition), undernourishment, avitaminosis, typhus, Cholera and local diseases.

The high mortality is a result of the lasting embargo and the destroyed drink- and sewage -supply/-disposal, destroyed hospital and pharmaceutical industry in the gulfwars in 1990/2003.

To reduce the impact of the embargo, the UN started the "Oil for Food" program in 1995, which ended in 2003.


So now your beginning to understand what a poor leader Saddam was. This is yet another reason why so many people felt he should go.

 

[Oliver]

So you're claiming ~100,000 deaths a year prior to the invasion.

Now you're off into woo-woo land. There is no evidence for this claim at all.

Was it? Or was it because Saddam had other priorities - like building palaces and statues? Funny how he found billions of dollars for those things, isn't it? Even during the 1990's...

The proceeds of which went in the pockets of Saddam's family and cronies.

Which has the count at 70,000 now. So by this standard, the invasion has saved ~75,000 lives a year, right?

You almost sound as cynic as a Holocaust denier. "No, there is no evidence that 6 million died. This is made up. Was is 6 million deaths or just 1 million?".

If you're really interested instead playing the "Holocaust-Denier" type of guy to look away:

http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/images/journals/lancet/s0140673606694919.pdf

We estimate that almost 655 000 people — 2·5% of the population in the study area — have died in Iraq. Although such death rates might be common in times of war, the combination of a long duration and tens of millions of people affected has made this the deadliest international conflict of the 21st century, and should be of grave concern to everyone.

http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/iraq?page=press

By April 2007, there were believed to be well over 4 million displaced Iraqis around the world, including some 1.9 million who were still inside Iraq, over 2 million in neighbouring Middle Eastern countries, and around 200,000 further afield.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil-for-Food_Programme

Alternatively, if the sanctions were too harmful for Iraqis to sustain, critics argued, the sanctions should be removed (excepting clearly military items). Critics claimed that the Oil-for-Food Programme was responsible, under the blockage of dual-use equipment, for preventing Iraq from repairing the water purification and medical systems destroyed by the initial sanctions and in the 1991 Gulf War, and others challenged the program on the grounds that it would not permit Iraq to import the food and medicine necessary to prevent millions of easily preventable deaths. Former program heads such as Hans von Sponeck questioned whether the sanctions should exist at all. Von Sponeck, speaking in Berkeley in late 2001, decried the proposed "Smart Sanctions", stating, "What is proposed at this point in fact amounts to a tightening of the rope around the neck of the average Iraqi citizen"; claimed that the sanctions were causing the death of 150 Iraqi children per day; and accused the US and Britain of arrogance toward Iraq, such as refusing to let it pay its UN and OPEC dues and blocking Iraqi attempts at negotiation.

My point here is: The US-Gov gave a f*** about humans. They gave a f*** about rebuilding the basic supplies for a working society after destroying such targets deliberately, the gave a f*** about the 3000 John Does on 9/11. But it's nice to see that you choose the Truther way to see the World, thru some funny, purple glasses.

 

[Oliver]

Here's more to get a basic understanding concenrning the issue:

External links

• Council on Foreign Relations, May 23 2003, "Iraq: U.N. Sanctions"
• U.S. Department of State, Released September 13, 1999 (updated 2/23/00), "Saddam Hussein's Iraq"
• The Daily Telegraph, 25 May 2003, "Saddam's parades of dead babies are exposed as a cynical charade"
• In These Times, Christopher Hayes, March 6, 2006, "Were Sanctions Worth the Price?"

• John Pilger, New Statesman, 4 October 2004, on why we ignored Iraq in the 1990s
• David Edwards, Zmag, 3 March 2000, Interview with Denis Halliday
• John Pilger, Impact of Iraq sanctions
• Since 1998, EPIC was the political arm of the anti-sanctions in the U.S., The Education for Peace in Iraq Center
• IRIN News, news agency of the UN OCHA agency, looks again at the figures (August 2005): IRAQ: Child mortality rates finally dropping

Articles

2005

• Putting Oil-for-Food in Perspective, JURIST, November 2, 2005
• Oil for food: A shared failure – Still a long way to go, transparency.org, October 27, 2005
• "U.N.: 2,200 Companies Gave Iraq Illicit Funds", Nick Wadhams & Edith Lederer, Associated Press, Yahoo News, October 27, 2005
• Financial Times, 13 January 2005, "US ignored warning on Iraqi oil smuggling"
• CNN.com, Documents: U.S. condoned Iraq oil smuggling, 2 February 2005
• BBC, 15 April 2005, Row deepens over UN oil scandal
• The Guardian, 17 May 2005, US 'backed illegal Iraqi oil deals'
• AlterNet, 4 October 2005, "Kofi and the Scandal Pimps"
• Le Monde, October 13, 2005, M. Boidevaix aurait été "en contact constant avec le quai d'Orsay"

2004

• The Al Mada List, February 2004
• The U.N. Oil for Food scandal - Washington Times, March 2004
• BBC, 19 March 2004, Galloway accepts libel damages
• Jean-David Levitte, Los Angeles Times, 7 April 2004, First 'Freedom Fries,' Now Oil-for-Food Lies; Op ed of French ambassador to the US
• Claudia Rosett, Commentary, May 2004, "What Did Kofi Annan Know, and When Did He Know It?"
• Hankes-Drielsma connections to Chalabi, May 2004
• The U.N. Is Us: Exposing Saddam Hussein's Silent Partner U.S. Complicity In The Oil Smuggling Harper's Magazine December 2004

 

[WildCat]

You almost sound as cynic as a Holocaust denier. "No, there is no evidence that 6 million died. This is made up. Was is 6 million deaths or just 1 million?".

That's the figure given at the site YOU linked to Oliver.

My point here is: The US-Gov gave a f*** about humans. They gave a f*** about rebuilding the basic supplies for a working society after destroying such targets deliberately, the gave a f*** about the 3000 John Does on 9/11. But it's nice to see that you choose the Truther way to see the World, thru some funny, purple glasses.

If you gave a damn about actual facts you wouldn't be spouting such nonsense. The infrastructure of Iraq was destroyed by Saddam, not by the war. Funny thing, how your sewers and water plants will decay and become useless when the money that could have been spent on their upkeep goes to building palaces and buying limousines instead.

The lives of Iraqis will greatly improve only when they decide to live like civilized human beings. Right now, they prefer a state of endless sectarian/tribal war.

 

[Oliver]

So now your beginning to understand what a poor leader Saddam was. This is yet another reason why so many people felt he should go.

So you're saying: "Bush 1&2 was/is a poor leader, so the 9/11 casualties are more than justified."

Thanks for clarifying your twisted world view.

 

[WildCat]

Here's more to get a basic understanding concenrning the issue:

Anyone can use google themselves Oliver. If you're going to post a link, it is good to comment on each one. Maybe provide a quote of what you found interesting in it.

It's bad form to just dump a bunch of links with no comment.

 

[Oliver]

That's the figure given at the site YOU linked to Oliver.


If you gave a damn about actual facts you wouldn't be spouting such nonsense. The infrastructure of Iraq was destroyed by Saddam, not by the war. Funny thing, how your sewers and water plants will decay and become useless when the money that could have been spent on their upkeep goes to building palaces and buying limousines instead.

The lives of Iraqis will greatly improve only when they decide to live like civilized human beings. Right now, they prefer a state of endless sectarian/tribal war.

Now listen carefully (You, too - Mr. Rosewater):

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&q=%22Anupama+Rao+Singh%22+iraq+death&btnG=Google+Search

"In 1989, the literacy rate of Iraq was 95%; and 93% of the population had free access to modern health facilities. Iraq had reached a stage where the basic indicators we use to measure the overall well-being of human beings, including children, were some of the best in the world. Now it is among the bottom 20%. In 10 years, child mortality has gone from one of the lowest in the world, to the highest." Anupama Rao Singh, Unicef's senior representative in Iraq, in interview with John Pilger.

ETA: Hint: This wasn't Saddams fault.

 

[WildCat]

So you're saying: "Bush 1&2 was/is a poor leader, so the 9/11 casualties are more than justified."

Thanks for clarifying your twisted world view.

I see you've now adopted the CT tactic of putting words in people's mouths they've not said.

 

[WildCat]

Now listen carefully (You, too - Mr. Rosewater):

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&q="Anupama+Rao+Singh"+iraq+death&btnG=Google+Search

"In 1989, the literacy rate of Iraq was 95%; and 93% of the population had free access to modern health facilities. Iraq had reached a stage where the basic indicators we use to measure the overall well-being of human beings, including children, were some of the best in the world. Now it is among the bottom 20%. In 10 years, child mortality has gone from one of the lowest in the world, to the highest." Anupama Rao Singh, Unicef's senior representative in Iraq, in interview with John Pilger.

I guess he shouldn't have invaded Kuwait then? I know it would have been too much to ask to cut back on palace construction...

 

[WildCat]

ETA: Hint: This wasn't Saddams fault.

Hmmmm, what could have happened after 1989 that wasn't Saddam's fault? Oh yeah, the US forced him to invade Kuwait...

Should have just kept to gassing Kurdish villages in his own country, using the chemicals and equipment that Germany sold to him.