Is Marijuana Harmless?

[knot]

Knot, some smokers report quitting cold turkey with barely a withdrawal symptom as well. Most are not so lucky.

Again, that is why we need studies, rather than anecdotes. All individual experiences will be different.

I can also tell you that I've been in several therapy groups, and many a person had the worst time quitting pot. Then they still want to smoke it months and years later and come up with all kinds of justifications as to why they should just start up again. They are far less fuzzy and paranoid while off it though. That glassy eyed look is so annoying, and so is the weirdly double sides to their personalities (on pot personality, craving pot personality). Anecdotes won't convince me that there is no physical dependency. We all know there can be an even stronger psychological dependency. Overwhelming documented evidence has conclusively shown the actual effects on the body while smoking MJ.

Conspiracy theories about research grants won't buy any respect from me either.

I guess time and more studies will surely tell. Right now the experiences on my end (useless anecdotes as they are as well) and properly conducted studies have me convinced that MJ is not harmless.

I just find high and/or pot craving people excessively annoying for so many reasons, sorry. Self medicating with pot and alcohol also leaves actual problems without effective treatment. There are such better ways to manage stress.

I had a roommate, at one time, that was a Serenity Lane counselor (drug and alcohol treatment center) for 13 years. You are wrong.

You mean we need to spend more taxes for more research for something that has already been studied? I think knot. That's the trouble with this country, they will fund study after study until someone agrees which gives cause for an agenda - then that's not even enough.

The proof is our own and prior generations of former and still practicing long term pot smokers. http://www.veryimportantpotheads.com/site/NOTES.htm

CARL SAGAN
Scientist, author of "Cosmos,'' "Contact,'' and "The Dragons of Eden.''

Using the pseudonym "Mr. X'', Sagan wrote about his pot smoking in an essay published in the 1971 book "Reconsidering Marijuana.'' The book's editor, Lester Grinspoon, recently disclosed the secret to Sagan's biographer, Keay Davidson. Davidson, a writer for the San Francisco Examiner, revealed the marijuana use in an article published in the newspaper's magazine on August 20, 1999.

In the essay, Sagan said marijuana inspired some of his intellectual work. "I can remember one occasion, taking a shower with my wife while high, in which I had an idea on the origins and invalidities of racism in terms of gaussian distribution curves,'' wrote the former Cornell University professor. Sagan also wrote that pot enhanced his experience of food, particularly potatoes, music and sex.

Grinspoon, Sagan's closest friend for 30 years, said Sagan's marijuana use is evidence against the notion that marijuana makes people less ambitious. "He was certainly highly motivated to work, to contribute,'' said Grinspoon, a psychiatry professor at Harvard University. Ann Druyan, Sagan's former wife, is a director of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws.

Source: Scott Andrews, Biographer: Sagan Smoked Marijuana, August 21, 1999, Associated Press

The recipients over the years, via their social workers, were terminally ill AIDS and cancer patients, who obtained nausea and pain relief from what has been called (by no less than Francis Young, a Drug Enforcement Administration law judge) "one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man."

http://www.mpp.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=glKZLeMQIsG&b=1847069&ct=3724363 April 5, 2007

The zeal to keep marijuana criminalized in the face of so much evidence — it has 50 to 100 therapeutically beneficial subcomponents and has been studied in connection with the treatment and control of Alzheimer's, brain tumors, epilepsy, MS and even schizophrenia, among much else — emanates from the federal level.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Telling kids that there is physical dependence when there are no hard data for it is as grave a mistake as the old "stepping stone" theory that pot invariably leads to heroin.
Propaganda, no matter how well-meaning the goal is, has the self-defeating property of biting itself in the keister when one fonsoon is discovered.

T'would be.

I feel the data and studies are showing why withdrawal symptoms point to physical dependence. Treating the psychological and physical dependence will make quitting the weed for good easier.

Then a person can get down to handling life better, while being free of any kind of dependence on something that warps the mind and empties the pocket book. Having some dealer relying on you for their income is hardly healthy either.

Why do people even start smoking the stuff? Why not find some better way to de-stress, or deal with whatever is going on in their lives?

Reliance on anything like tobacco, alcohol, or MJ is just an indicator that a person hasn't learned another way to deal with whatever reason they reach for a crutch.

I've crashed in life, without any substance abuse/reliance. Too much stress will affect you physicall and mentally. I had to learn to deal with life by learning when I need a break, a healthy break. You have to learn what healthy break works for you. Most of us don't learn stress management until it's too late.

 

[Lonewulf]

Then a person can get down to handling life better, while being free of any kind of dependence on something that warps the mind and empties the pocket book. Having some dealer relying on you for their income is hardly healthy either.

Naw.

At that point, they move onto videogames, which will be next to be banned.

 

[Jeff Corey]

Eos.
I'm positive that Randi would agree with you. Dining with him a number of times, he had not one drop of wine, let alone the martinis I was consuming.
But, a realistic approach to drug education has to involve the facts of the effects. Otherwise, the integrity of what you say will be compromised.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I had a roommate, at one time, that was a Serenity Lane counselor (drug and alcohol treatment center) for 13 years. You are wrong.

Wrong about what, specifically? What studies was your roommate involved in?

You mean we need to spend more taxes for more research for something that has already been studied? I think knot. That's the trouble with this country, they will fund study after study until someone agrees which gives cause for an agenda - then that's not even enough.

Already been studied? You have to repeat studies. If a study is inconclusive and never replicated, then it has to go back to the drawing board.

You start out with a hypothesis. It will lead to part of an answer, or something completely different. You then have to discover why, or pursue another avenue. In the heart attack example, they knew how MJ affected the blood system, but they hadn't specifically studied how it might cause a heart attack. So, you can hypothesize that one and one equals two, but you also have to prove it.

People have assumed that most evidence points to non-physical dependence in varying assumptions. It was not actually studied though. Studies are just beginning to be done in various ways. They must be replicated, and that takes time. Long term is how long term? If you want to study the effects of something over 20 years, then it will take 20 years to complete the study.

In most study designs now, they are finally bringing laboratories in to the picture to make sure people who say they are no longer taking the drug are actually no longer taking the drug.

I actually had a hard time finding good study designs. There haven't been that many done yet. The more they do now though, the more they understand what physical withdrawals are attributed to MJ, and not to whatever else might be going on in a person's life at the time. Results are being replicated.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Naw.

At that point, they move onto videogames, which will be next to be banned.

That is a weak slippery slope argument.

Videogames are not inhaled, injected, or drunk.

There has been cases of psychological addiction to videogames, and studies done on the brain, and conclusions based on dopamine, blah blah. But, I really don't think they will be banned, ever.

I also never talked about whether or not I care MJ is legalized or not. I don't really care. It is not harmless, no matter if it is legal or not. Alcohol is legal, but not "harmless". Tobacco is legal, but not "harmless". Weed is illegal, but not "harmless".

It is also easier to kick a kid off a videogame than try to find out if he has weed hidden somewhere to confiscate.

 

[Momzahippie]

First, I would like to share my reaction to reading the first page of this thread. I didn't have the patience to read it all before posting. I am delighted to find people intelligently discussing a subject without the usual "I think it's bad, wrong, etc. so you should too" attitude. I am new to the forum and this is the first forum that I have been a part of. I am also new to skeptics. I was one but didn't realize how much or that there is such a community of us until a friend pointed me to this site. I am slowly easing into the more serious threads so please be patient with my stumbling.

I would have to agree that while marijuana may not be harmless, but it is probably safer than alcohol and many kinds of presciptions drugs. It may even have some medicinal uses that haven't been reserched better because of the government's crusade against the plant. I've known several people with Cancer and MS that say it is better than the stuff prescribed by their doctors and far less expensive.

I strongly agree that pot may be safer than alcohol. I don't wish to address the long or short term medical ramifications since that would take a lot of research.
If you compare drunk people to stoned people in a social situation such as a party or bar, you will see an interesting difference. Firstly, when have you heard of an angry pot smoker? Angry drunks are fairly common. Driving is another issue. I am NOT advocating driving while high or drunk. But if you go to a bar at closing, people are regularly downing that last drink before walking out the door. Smokers of pot usually don't smoke just before leaving the party. Also, alcohol affects you in such a different way than mj, that driving for most people is less dangerous when high rather than drunk. That of course is just my opinion from experience with others. I can not prove that or site any studies. But I personally know of at least 5 accidents where the driver was drunk. And only one minor backing into a parked car by a high driver. I mean knew the drivers personally. Would love to see a comparison study on that subject.

I am a chronic pain sufferer and partially disabled. In the past, mj has helped when I was at my worst and the prescription medication wasn't helping much at that point. As soon as the meds alone worked, I felt no compulsion to continue smoking.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I wrecked a car. The one time I tried pot. I wrecked my beater car by hitting a curb while driving really fast. I had no idea that stuff affected people so badly. I was totally out of it. I was lucky I came out of the car within walking distance from home, so I could go sober up. I was lucky I didn't take anyone out with me.

These dweebs I knew heard that I had never tried pot. So they encouraged me to try it. Then they thought it would be REALLY FUNNY to send me to the store in my own car.

I had never heard that stuff would make me just as out of it as alcohol, or worse. I've never driven drunk, so I don't really know. I thought it was just some simple giggly high that would happen. I never thought I shouldn't be driving.

I shouldn't have drove that car that night. I got to learn the hard way because nobody was honest with me about what it does to the head. Instead I was around a bunch of @sshats that thought the whole thing was hilarious.

I haven't touched it since, and it didn't help my opinion of potheads.

 

[knot]

I wrecked a car. The one time I tried pot. I wrecked my beater car by hitting a curb while driving really fast. I had no idea that stuff affected people so badly. I was totally out of it. I was lucky I came out of the car within walking distance from home, so I could go sober up. I was lucky I didn't take anyone out with me.

These dweebs I knew heard that I had never tried pot. So they encouraged me to try it. Then they thought it would be REALLY FUNNY to send me to the store in my own car.

I had never heard that stuff would make me just as out of it as alcohol, or worse. I've never driven drunk, so I don't really know. I thought it was just some simple giggly high that would happen. I never thought I shouldn't be driving.

I shouldn't have drove that car that night. I got to learn the hard way because nobody was honest with me about what it does to the head. Instead I was around a bunch of @sshats that thought the whole thing was hilarious.

I haven't touched it since, and it didn't help my opinion of potheads.

LMAO - pot does not work the first time you try it. Must have been driver error.

Public Health Concern?

As the drug czar's war machine continues to grind against those who use the cannabis plant to amuse themselves, it is frequently said to be a matter of the government doing its job protecting the health of the citizens. From the perspective of mortality, it appears there is very little justification for "protecting" people from marijuana. Indeed, all of the available data the government collects about the impacts of marijuana use bears out one consistent finding: the greatest danger of using marijuana is simply being caught with it.

They Died From Pot! Oops, Nevermind

 

[Eos of the Eons]

LMAO - pot does not work the first time you try it. Must have been driver error.

Are you also of the opinion that it is impossible for girls to get pregnant the first time they "do it"???

Seriously, get educated for once before you post something completely wrong.

I had never smoked pot before or after that, and I've never driven in that altered a state before or after that. I also didn't remember buying anything at the store, just being there and weaving and feeling like I was floating. I probably looked like the stoned moron I was.

 

[joobz]

Why do people even start smoking the stuff? Why not find some better way to de-stress, or deal with whatever is going on in their lives?

Are all recreational acivities stress relief? What are considered acceptable forms of stress relief? And, are all recreational activities a form of escapism? It seems that if people use any activity as a form of escape, the outcome will never be good. it isn't a feature of the activity but of the person who abuses that activity.

 

[knot]

Are you also of the opinion that it is impossible for girls to get pregnant the first time they "do it"???

Seriously, get educated for once before you post something completely wrong.

I had never smoked pot before or after that, and I've never driven in that altered a state before or after that. I also didn't remember buying anything at the store, just being there and weaving and feeling like I was floating. I probably looked like the stoned moron I was.

\

My experiences are "completely wrong"? I don't know one single person that got high the first time they smoked it. Perhaps you are allergic to some compound in MJ.

Perhaps the girl has not reached puberty to get pregnant the first time they did it.

I have never experienced amnesia nor "weaving and floating". I have one word for that, "lightweight" Some people just can handle anything and they lose touch with reality with the slightest change. Some people end up in mental wards after taking a mood altering substance. Their brain chemistry perhaps is susceptible or sensitive to slight changes. There are happy drunks and violent drunks but most people can handle pot and alcohol.

Seriously, get educated by other means than your government biased research reports.

I'm done with your condescending tone. Good bye.

 

[joobz]

\

My experiences are "completely wrong"? I don't know one single person that got high the first time they smoked it. Perhaps you are allergic to some compound in MJ.

Perhaps the girl has not reached puberty to get pregnant the first time they did it.

I have never experienced amnesia nor "weaving and floating". I have one word for that, "lightweight" Some people just can handle anything and they lose touch with reality with the slightest change. Some people end up in mental wards after taking a mood altering substance. Their brain chemistry perhaps is susceptible or sensitive to slight changes. There are happy drunks and violent drunks but most people can handle pot and alcohol.

Seriously, get educated by other means than your government biased research reports.

I'm done with your condescending tone. Good bye.

Unfortunately, knot, your attitude and posts work to support Eon's point.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Condescending and biased? You scoff at someone getting high on a drug that induces changes to the brain on the first try. Then you demonstrate complete ignorance about the scientific method, even after an attempt to explain it to you. I'm not condescending, biased, nor have I scoffed at anyone like that. I'm merely pointing out how things are done, and wondering why you would think someone can't get high on a drug the first time.

Why would you say people don't get high on something the first time? Is there some blockage to the brain until you smoke it twice? I think not. Would you say the same of cocaine, crack, or heroine?

Again, this is why anecdotes are completely useless.

Are all recreational acivities stress relief? What are considered acceptable forms of stress relief? And, are all recreational activities a form of escapism? It seems that if people use any activity as a form of escape, the outcome will never be good. it isn't a feature of the activity but of the person who abuses that activity.

Hmm, you seem to have read too much into parts of my post, and ignored other parts. Did I not suggest healthy forms of escape/taking a break? Even watching TV or playing video games is less risky than drinking every day. I also said I needed to learn to escape, or take a break, to manage stress.

There are non-addictive and non-risky ways to manage stress. I've chosen resting with a good book, or emailing friends.

It's recognizing when you need to have a break/escape that is the first step. I used to go go go, like the energizing bunny, never giving myself any down time. The next step is choosing an activity that allows for down time that won't cause even worse consequences than the stress you are escaping/taking a break from. Having a glass of wine once a day isn't bad for everyone, especially those that have never become alcoholics. Drinking until you are drunk every day is another matter entirely.

They key is to not making an addictive or harmful substance your only way of getting that escape/down time.

I'm always wondering how to prevent getting addicted or attached to something that is harmful. The best way is to never start. Do something else instead.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Unfortunately, knot, your attitude and posts work to support Eon's point.

Wise words, logical observation.

 

[Lonewulf]

That is a weak slippery slope argument.

It would be if I was making an argument, probably.

Videogames are not inhaled, injected, or drunk.

No d'uh. You win the Obvious award for the day.

There has been cases of psychological addiction to videogames, and studies done on the brain, and conclusions based on dopamine, blah blah. But, I really don't think they will be banned, ever.

Okay?

I also never talked about whether or not I care MJ is legalized or not. I don't really care.

I care, mainly because the economy of a few of our states could stand a lot to gain from selling marijuana. But regardless, you seem to have made a few assumptions on my post...

It is not harmless, no matter if it is legal or not. Alcohol is legal, but not "harmless".

It's harm is extremely limited when not consumed in excess. ANYTHING is extremely limited in harm when not consumed in excess, with some exceptions. This includes marijuana.

Tobacco is legal, but not "harmless". Weed is illegal, but not "harmless".

Nor is it incredibly harmful.

It is also easier to kick a kid off a videogame than try to find out if he has weed hidden somewhere to confiscate.

Is it easy to find out if he has a PSP hidden somewhere to confiscate?

Have you not caught up with modern gaming or something?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Slippery slope is suggesting one thing will happen due to... blah blah even though it is practically unrelated and completely illogical.

Marijuana is illegal, but the next step is not banning video games.

I care, mainly because the economy of a few of our states could stand a lot to gain from selling marijuana.

Do you really feel that is ethical?

Nor is it incredibly harmful.

Can you really draw that line? Where does harmful end, and incredibly harmful begin?

I do wonder if legalizing the stuff would help get better education on it. I really had no idea I would be so impaired when I tried it. People who smoke it and drive have a higher chance of getting into an accident. There was a local commercial that implied it impairs your judgement in other things too, the way alcohol does, and you may be more prone to unprotected "activities" with others.

These are the studies I'd like to see. How many people smoking it get pg underage, get into accidents, etc. If it were legal it may be easier and more ethical to study it. Then maybe we could have tests for people caught driving under its influence. What ppm in the breath is an unacceptable impairment level? Can it be measured that way, the way alcohol is?

I'm really not concerned with confiscating any videogames. I can drag my kid off of any gaming system to get him to his lacross game. He will get kicked off the team if he tests positive for drugs, or even smokes tobacco (he won't be able to keep up with his team-mates if he is hacking up phlegm every five minutes).

 

[joobz]

Hmm, you seem to have read too much into parts of my post, and ignored other parts. Did I not suggest healthy forms of escape/taking a break? Even watching TV or playing video games is less risky than drinking every day. I also said I needed to learn to escape, or take a break, to manage stress.

I did not mean to seem like I was ignoring other points of your post. I just wanted to highlight a point you made since to me there is inherent subjectivity that needs to be addressed.

I do not know if there is a clean line that can be drawn between activities deemed acceptable or unacceptable. You mention in another post lacrosse as an acceptable activity for your child, yet I find many sports to be needlessly dangerous. Broken bones, bruises, encouraging of aggresive behavior are all things I do not wish to see my child subject themselves to. Further, I find it horrible the level of respect sports are given when kids could be using that time to study or do their homework. The fact that colleges support barely marginal students with full rides just so they can play a sport is reprehensible to me.

Now I definitely think participating in lacrosse is a whole world of a better activity for a developing child to participate in than smoking dope. But I do not think it is a "harmless" activity.

I think that there is a time and place for everything. Part of being an adult is the right to choose amongst activities of varying risk. An adult who chooses to participate in these activities have acknowledge the risks and accepted their consequences, whether they are good or bad. For this reason, I support higher insurance rates for drug users, smokers, drinkers. I also support lower rates for those who diet properly, exercise and generally avoid risky behavior. I'll happily pay for my own behaviors, but not for others.

 

[Jeff Corey]

LMAO - pot does not work the first time you try it...

Wrong.
Hold it a second, someone's at the door.
"Man I tole you, Dave's not here!"

 

[Jeff Corey]

I did not mean to seem like I was ignoring other points of your post. I just wanted to highlight a point you made since to me there is inherent subjectivity that needs to be addressed.

I do not know if there is a clean line that can be drawn between activities deemed acceptable or unacceptable. You mention in another post lacrosse as an acceptable activity for your child, yet I find many sports to be needlessly dangerous. Broken bones, bruises, encouraging of aggresive behavior are all things I do not wish to see my child subject themselves to. Further, I find it horrible the level of respect sports are given when kids could be using that time to study or do their homework....

And band. We live a few blocks from the high school and hear the band practice until 10 PM. What time do these kids have to do homework? Let alone kick back and listen to some real music. Like the Ramones. I wanna be sedated.